Sean_VEVO

@Xarkly i would go to say that from experience on both ends people will often mimic community leaders and take after what they do and what they believe in. This ranges from only some to a completely cultlike following that some people have, be they NL or not that borders on the degree of unhealthy because it limits one's own ability to form opinions and make their own decisions for what their character(s) may truly believe.

This reflects OOC too, as intentionally or not community leaders are really role models. Think about how many times an nl comes in and a bunch of people are like "x is so based" and try to just be another version of them, or when people have called eachother versions of one another over the years; "oh hes like little kyle" "this person is probably a twi alt bc they worship twi" "theres big matt and little matt" "eli wannabe" etc - ultimately i think this plays a part in whether or not the soft immunity nations have that ultimately nothing matters to them so long as they can retain a playerbase, be it active or a sleeper rally. Some NLs (and community leads) are ultimately looking out for their playerbase which is why they may get so defensive over things done to them, but we gotta dismantle that spirit and look to more organically wrought roleplay rather than ooc ego or clout that doesn't matter.

in general i dont think its rly that bad and i think since the Mordu Incident (alchemy prodigy has 1 billion FA great-grandchildren) ((this is a good thing, im not making a joke, this is great)) that a lot of lore has spread very widely, and really since Rift's administration, lore began to proliferate and breakdown traditional loregoons who occupied some playerbases and broke down gates to the point some people are asking them to be put back up to put mystique back into some magics.

I think in general lore is very well proliferated throughout the playerbase and im satisfied with the current level, particularly with the more close congregation of what tier of fantasy the general person would put LOTC at - since that varied so wildly before I feel its homogenized somewhat more now to a tigher variance. Obviously there could always be more, like active aengul worship (oblivion idea) but I feel some things are untenable. Though it really just takes one person to do something really special, or play a really special character, and people will be trying to emulate that moment or character for the rest of the server because people speak of it fondly and remember it so well.

There is the dark end of lore proliferation that it sucks the soul or intention out of a piece, as say how Kani or Bloodmagic became a complete bastardization of its original intent, but how it proves to the players now, people like it. Things change and evolve, the meaning isnt gone its just different now. Magics without these (like voidmagics) do suffer from people just collecting it but I think even then theres still a spirit with each voidmage trying to do something different by trying new things and combinations and interactions that give them a special edge and more opportunities.

all this to say i think things are fine, nation leaders (under the umbrella of 'community leader) do play a role in this and some have damaged interaction by taking an edgy stance of "i dont read lore." because its cool (?)

((and also evil blacksite nation deals and diplomacy on discord should be execution worthy but that plays just into roleplay dynamism and not lore))

@squakhawk

I'm not disagreeing with the general commentary about NLs - my point is moreso is that I don't really think it's an integral component of the magic/human divide (and again it's really important to remember that this a years' old debate). 

Like, I don't really think human disinterest in Xan/Azdromoth (as an example) stems from the fact that their NL tells them not to be interested, but that's there no natural interest. Most people in these communities don't care about a war in heaven between Aenguls because - as other people have pointed out - these lore concepts don't really have any impact on their circle of RP at all. Without connection, it's hard to care.

Aengudaemon lore has been historically poorly received by human communities for reasons like this - I'm not blaming the current ST or anything (important to note I don't think we're having this debate in the context that ST SHOULD be weaving this into human nations more, or vice versa; just that the state of affairs exists as Sean points out) but it does stem from issues in the past (long before your tenure) where ET did legitimately expect human playerbases to care about storylines with Aenguls they'd in some cases never even heard of before.

Where does that leave us today? I do think we're seeing a more central shift towards focus on server lore/magic than in the past. Calling PvP is generally getting pretty uncommon, and magic, items, and materials play a dominant role in nearly every CRP encounter - the server's unironically heading towards the other extreme whereby you're at a distinct disadvantage if your character doesn't have some special magic sword (this is it's own issue, but in the context of this discussion it should be seen as a plus since it indicates how much more accepted magic has become). 

That said, human nations still remain the least magic-literate on the server which makes it harder to engage with some aspects of the server lore. On top of that, this is compounded by the fact that - like you point out - NL and staff don't always get along or see eye to eye. While I agree with a lot of NL criticisms, having been both an NL and staff in my time, the issue is - unsurprisingly - a bit more nuanced. Yes, sometimes it's because NLs are bad, sometimes it's because staff are bad, but it's just about being on the same page and balancing interests ultimately.

To use your example, yeah an ST could destroy Haense tomorrow. Whether this is a positive or negative experience for those involved obviously depends on how you go about it - does it have build-up, relevant stakes, narrative engagement? Like, this is obviously straightforward enough - if you destroyed a nation with no requisite story then yes, obviously that would suck balls and it's not unreasonable that people wouldn't like that. On the flip-side, if you did have all the trappings of a good narrative that culminated in the destruction of a city (ideally because of a consequence of player actions throughout the event line), then that's a different kettle of fish, and people who would bemoan that are the kind of OOC politickers that some of the other comments have pointed out.

So, tldr I guess is that people care about lore/story that affects them personally. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. 

I agree with @Xarkly

Idk why ST assume, that NLs don't want lore stuff coz it will break their cities. I think anyone would kill for an ST to do an eventline and test up the city (does who do complain about that are inferior to insects imo)

It's generally as Xarkly says, just very little interaction between lore and playerbases. Not only applies to humans, but dwarves as well, dwarves are also more history based, though they are more magic literate.

Plus, not like if people even wanted to interact with certain lore pieces, they wouldn't be able to since its just a lorepost on the forums that doesn't affect anything.

There has been more interaction with magic groups now than ever since I joined mid Almaris.

People dont give a damn about some random group of noname voidal acolytes. Everyone knows Gash, The paladin-drazi war picking up attention, etc.