Debate of Spirits

[BurberLord123 375]

Hello! I have long played a shaman, and all my charecters have been spiritualists, however I can see that our lore and magics are no longer fleshed out as they once were. 

 

This is for Shamans, what do you feel is missing from our lore, our magic, spells we need or spells we should be rid of. Even changes in the Shamanism community, what do you want to see?

 

Thanks yall

 

 

 

 

[Ardory 2978]

I am going to explode.

[BurberLord123 375]

Just to get this started, I would really like to see more shaman tools made, not MArts, but simply tools that are spread around.

 

On top of this, I feel that there should be mass spirit walks organized once more, because Shamanism does not recive hardly any ET or ST events, so it is up to us to organize, which within the coming weeks I will be planning one

 

I have seen opinions of removing lessers, however I disagree with this, as I believe that it makes sense that Greaters would leave smaller tasks to 'lesser' spirits, and it allows people to discover new spirits

[PrinceJose270 1211]

Persoally I do think one of the major issues is the contentions between trying to create restrictions on a magic that was origionally fully freeformed in many aspects, Its one of the oldest magic lores n trying to fit it into moderization always been quite the issue.

Secondly comes from players at times, for when one decides to play a shaman in bad faith. (I e take old elementalism or some spells for FS or WD). it starts if not made a ever tumbling snowball of nerfs.

It has gotten to a point in order to use X spirits abliities it costs one FULL magic slot, which i feel there are other ways to restrict those into the 100 (mind you, majority being buffs but not really buffs) spells that shamanism offers. (I e, logging a cap amount of spirits on a MA was brought up but auto denied via the current Freeze.).

Mass spirit walks i feel could be done, but outside of the world event regarding arambar (based magma spirit) Trying to find a event based around spirits have been for the most part but on the backburner when it comes to events. The most recent being the spirit war (not really) spirit war  that got cut early but had so much potental.

Removing lessers might be one of the most redundant things, as currently the spirit community has various cultures using lesser spirits, that are genuinly well made. I e The Khas Dietiy guardians, Rahtumas egyption gods, even some Ker based Moon spirits. It offers a creativity since you currently cannot interact with greaters. Which if they were removed, what would be the point of going on a spirit walk outside of curing a vampire or 2. You cant take anything out of the walks so it would make the spiritual worlds empty. The other Elementals are also genuinely ignored which would be an interesting case to dawn on.

Overall? Shamanism from a Lore standpoint needs to at least show a good organized angle from the Sealing of Apophet to where spirits are now.
And personally a Rebalance of the Pacting and of X blessings. The former more so since it feels discoraging to persure more spiritual ties especally to say, new players. Who would likely rather persue things that would offer more then a singular spell for a magic slot, As there are things that offer more in terms of magic. I e Housemagery, bardmancy or voidal magic. The hope to see in the future that Shamanism becomes more Balanced and organized yet still holds that semblance of Creative freedom which i think is one of the main, if not best reasons to try being a shaman once.

[ScreamingDingo 20568]

The only way to fix shamanism to modern standards is to destroy everything people like about the magic. The trade off of modernisation will make many not want to even look at it. This weird limbo is the only way to preserve the creativity with the restrictions that are in place.

 

 

The problem of shamanism IS shamanism, and there’s no real nice way to do it. It requires a gutting of its entire core and especially how spirits function to align with how the rest of the cosmos lore is set up. Which is brutal in itself, shamanism lives and thrives in its contradictions to established lore

[BurberLord123 375]

11 minutes ago, ScreamingDingo said:

The only way to fix shamanism to modern standards is to destroy everything people like about the magic. The trade off of modernisation will make many not want to even look at it. This weird limbo is the only way to preserve the creativity with the restrictions that are in place.

 

 

The problem of shamanism IS shamanism, and there’s no real nice way to do it. It requires a gutting of its entire core and especially how spirits function to align with how the rest of the cosmos lore is set up. Which is brutal in itself, shamanism lives and thrives in its contradictions to established lore

By destroy what people like about shamanism, what specific parts do you mean?

[Panashea 3323]

1 hour ago, BurberLord123 said:

By destroy what people like about shamanism, what specific parts do you mean?

 

Spirits weren't originally part of the Aengudaemonic pantheon, and were retconned in with Apohet's lore. Its left their cosmology really confusing, and like Dingo said, you would have to gut/change a lot of how Spirits work (like with Apohet/Kor overriding the Soulstream), and how Spirits actually manifest/gaining power works compared to Aengudaemons.  I was never keen on the Apohet addition for this reason, and the expansion of cosmology lore in the last decade would make trying to rewrite them in a lot harder, they would be unrecognizable in a lot of ways. The Spirit Realm sits in a really tricky spot and it would take a lot of dedicated ST with knowledge of how backlore/secret cosmology would function to make sure all the pieces thread together, as well as changing a ton of player history and past events.

[BurberLord123 375]

On 11/10/2025 at 4:17 PM, Panashea said:

 

Spirits weren't originally part of the Aengudaemonic pantheon, and were retconned in with Apohet's lore. Its left their cosmology really confusing, and like Dingo said, you would have to gut/change a lot of how Spirits work (like with Apohet/Kor overriding the Soulstream), and how Spirits actually manifest/gaining power works compared to Aengudaemons.  I was never keen on the Apohet addition for this reason, and the expansion of cosmology lore in the last decade would make trying to rewrite them in a lot harder, they would be unrecognizable in a lot of ways. The Spirit Realm sits in a really tricky spot and it would take a lot of dedicated ST with knowledge of how backlore/secret cosmology would function to make sure all the pieces thread together, as well as changing a ton of player history and past events.

So, for the sake of conversation, what would the best course be, for dedicated Shaman players to apply for LT roles so that they can fix it?

[Panashea 3323]

I don't think people need to apply to LT roles to fix it, I think shamans as a playerbase need to gather together to better roleplay and create events between each other as to improve the general standing of shamanism on the server. There are issues(as is the case with every magic) where people aren't reading specific redlines/lore posts, or utilizing the lore that we currently have before we spend the time trying to rewrite and retcon everything. I think that's been one of the largest issues with shamanism, a lot of half-steps toward improving Shamanism, rewriting parts of lore, but never tackling it all together due to the scope and size.  We have had many Shaman LT in the past there to write shamanism, but it mostly was  people arguing about the nature of the Spirits rather than any tangible progress forward. 

 

If I could gather all the shamans in a room together to try and improve shamanism I would-

1. Ask them to be a more unified playerbase in events, interacting, and creating engaging stories for themselves and other players. Spiritualism goes ignored a lot of the time and although people reflavor the Spirits to suit religious/cultural ideals, it doesn't match server canon or allow for an expansion of what we currently have.  Haruspexy is rarely used though would fit way better for a lot of these cultural groups rather than completely erasing previous spirit lore.

2. Teachers especially need to do a better job at guiding shamans toward more collaborative or engaging events and stories, shamans rn are mostly delegated to instant healers which feels bad balancing wise, and rp wise mises the point of Spirits pacting with shamans- to gain more influence. While healing does exert their power, it's not a shrine, hex, or some kind of deal established to make sure that people are worshipping the spirits. 

3.  Erase the general frustration about shamanism "not being as powerful" as the other magics. Shamanism as it stands has no drawbacks that typical deific, dark, or other combative magical subtypes have. It has tons of crowd control,  ranged attacks, healing, and effective damage towards pretty much every other magic on the server. While I recognize a lot of the combative parts of Shamanism needs to be tweaked, I don't think adding 50 combative spells will suddenly change it to be in a better standing without effort from the playerbase.

 

4. More MArts, Prophecies, Remnant Hexes, and other quests shamans can pursue- for a faith based magic system, it feels like a lot of the "journey" shamans go on is something completely in the background of regular server dynamics, or only gone after by a specific few of older shamans.  I don't think this only means pump out a ton of shaman MArts, as education, writing, and engagement need to improve from the Shaman community as a whole as to create better standards and paths for new players. 

 

I think thats it.

[BurberLord123 375]

1 hour ago, Panashea said:

I don't think people need to apply to LT roles to fix it, I think shamans as a playerbase need to gather together to better roleplay and create events between each other as to improve the general standing of shamanism on the server. There are issues(as is the case with every magic) where people aren't reading specific redlines/lore posts, or utilizing the lore that we currently have before we spend the time trying to rewrite and retcon everything. I think that's been one of the largest issues with shamanism, a lot of half-steps toward improving Shamanism, rewriting parts of lore, but never tackling it all together due to the scope and size.  We have had many Shaman LT in the past there to write shamanism, but it mostly was  people arguing about the nature of the Spirits rather than any tangible progress forward. 

 

If I could gather all the shamans in a room together to try and improve shamanism I would-

1. Ask them to be a more unified playerbase in events, interacting, and creating engaging stories for themselves and other players. Spiritualism goes ignored a lot of the time and although people reflavor the Spirits to suit religious/cultural ideals, it doesn't match server canon or allow for an expansion of what we currently have.  Haruspexy is rarely used though would fit way better for a lot of these cultural groups rather than completely erasing previous spirit lore.

2. Teachers especially need to do a better job at guiding shamans toward more collaborative or engaging events and stories, shamans rn are mostly delegated to instant healers which feels bad balancing wise, and rp wise mises the point of Spirits pacting with shamans- to gain more influence. While healing does exert their power, it's not a shrine, hex, or some kind of deal established to make sure that people are worshipping the spirits. 

3.  Erase the general frustration about shamanism "not being as powerful" as the other magics. Shamanism as it stands has no drawbacks that typical deific, dark, or other combative magical subtypes have. It has tons of crowd control,  ranged attacks, healing, and effective damage towards pretty much every other magic on the server. While I recognize a lot of the combative parts of Shamanism needs to be tweaked, I don't think adding 50 combative spells will suddenly change it to be in a better standing without effort from the playerbase.

 

4. More MArts, Prophecies, Remnant Hexes, and other quests shamans can pursue- for a faith based magic system, it feels like a lot of the "journey" shamans go on is something completely in the background of regular server dynamics, or only gone after by a specific few of older shamans.  I don't think this only means pump out a ton of shaman MArts, as education, writing, and engagement need to improve from the Shaman community as a whole as to create better standards and paths for new players. 

 

I think thats it.

So basicly more shaman interactions outside of trying to rewrite lore, better teaching of lore, and more just general storytelling? I agree w what u said abt the 50 combat spells, but I do think our current spell list is lacking, and if it got reworked shamans would no longer be the one stop shop for wounded, they would have different roles in combat

[Panashea 3323]

They already have different roles in combat, people just choose not to pact to the combative spells. I'm probably the only shaman pacted to Ogrol rn, even though it's a strong form of CC.  There have been tons of addition to Shamanism in the last year but it's pretty rare people pay attention to them or utilize them, which is how i feel about point #4.

It's not a matter of adding more, it's recognizing what's there and doing more to grow it.

[Frisket 4538]

Personally… I hate saying it. But I agree with ScreamingDingo 

 

shamanism has many contradictions. And you make a great point, as to how it’s not fully fleshed out and has to continue adapting to new lore. Instead, it would be nice to just Remake the entire Magic, or unfortunately shelve it. It’s been in a freeze for a long time now, we’ve seen small amendments here and there. I’ve heard multiple shamans say they are helping LT work on the project of its revamp, but honestly, If it doesn’t even pass in the end, I think it’s time to join the shelved magics and find something new.

 

anyways I hear orc Druids are a thing XD 

[BurberLord123 375]

9 minutes ago, Panashea said:

They already have different roles in combat, people just choose not to pact to the combative spells. I'm probably the only shaman pacted to Ogrol rn, even though it's a strong form of CC.  There have been tons of addition to Shamanism in the last year but it's pretty rare people pay attention to them or utilize them, which is how i feel about point #4.

It's not a matter of adding more, it's recognizing what's there and doing more to grow it.

I think for me, personally, its a challange to keep track of all the additions, so mabey a post that contains links to all of the main lore, including additions?

[Panashea 3323]

The story team discord accessible to everyone has an Audit log channel for everything that has been changed, orcish lore hub has been around since 2023 and has everything lore page wise to look at. 

 

 

[JustMeMorgan 2065]

Just say that when the creator broke off into a gazillion pieces there were bigger parts smaller parts and then really tiny parts

big parts are the biggest aenguls, then lesser aenguls n daemons and then the really small pieces clumped together in a constellation, too weak to maintain their own plane of existence so bonded together to make the spirit plane a sorta 'shared realm' or smthing. Thus uniting spirits into aenguldaemonic lore.

 

in terms of what shamans could do, I always loved the soft-version of planeswalking they have, but definitely flesh more about it. Give them utility functions or smthing, like weak elementalism that's all noncombative (i donno like they can make stone bridges or smthing)

 

I'd also want to see shamans to be able to create things that could have effects, make them like... be able to make dream catchers or totems that dampen voidal magic tiers or just any tier of magic as the spirit plane interrupts some of the connection to other planes of existence, you could expand it into shamanic alchemy and create a sorta branch there that requires shamans, meaning alchemists will want to find a shaman to help (perhaps make it require a shaman and an alchemist so people can't powerstack)

Could also have things that increase shamanic abilities in certain areas, the inverse of the sorta dream catcher thing where it actually buffs them- makes shamans stronger in their own home sorta vibe, make it so they can make maarts or build n design cool things. add a lot of cultural flavour to it too if you really wanted.

 

Overall never knew too much of shamanism lore, it always looked really cool but god I hate lores that have 13 different posts you need to read through to understand