The First Holy Crusade

[Samson Option 9652]

Ellisia, under whatever reason he wishes necessary.

That being said, I am going to retract my idea of trying to be present to make this legitimate as it seems that there was no roleplay taking place before this; albeit I had been led to believe that the Church had led to this point rather than automatically reaching for a Crusade to pull out of the hat like a bunny. I need to seriously write up my proposed changes to the War Claim system, it would flesh out the system to be a more intelligent system rather than mere 'I write two paragraphs, BOOM accepted'.

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

(( Well I would like to also bring up the point, if these crusades do go ahead they need to have a lasting impact on the nations affected if the nations survive, it will make Oren hated by most of the Eastern Nations in Asulon and people will need to act like it if it happens. There will be genocide and indiscriminate killing of the High Elves and Mori and people who play as those races around Asulon will need to act like the Humans have done a terrible crime and have hatred towards them. ))

[Divinus 179]

I am thinking of retracting myself from this, this has sprawled off far, far from what I originally thought of it to be. For those curious of what that original idea was, it was to flex Orens muscles, and go on a mass genocide of the elves, which I still plan on attempting regardless of the crusade.

I snipped the rest, considered it useless.

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

I am thinking of retracting myself from this, this has sprawled off far, far from what I originally thought of it to be. For those curious of what that original idea was, it was to flex Orens muscles, and go on a mass genocide of the elves, which I still plan on attempting regardless of the crusade.

I snipped the rest, considered it useless.

(( Well the problem with "flexing" it has not lore behind it, you need proper reason to go to war not the fact your bored, you must make clear your intentions and back them up, though I ask you not to retract yourself from the Crusade because a few people are raging, get some good strong RP reasoning behind this crusade then you will have more support. ))

[DecoLamb 959]

What I honestly think would have been a more intresting and enjoyable experince would have been first to send missionariea and the like. Conversion before Conquest. I would have loved having whiskey with a few red nosed priests and chatting it up about scandalous nuns.

I think MANY people just wish that it had not went from neutral/peaceful/who are you? To KILL THEM ALL out of the blue. As I said in all the previous conversations, Holm itself has never been anything but welcoming and friendly to those of Oren. And while I cannot speak for any other, I know that there is no sufficient reason for the attack.

'God wills it' is far, far too weak. Im sorry but I refuse it completely.

I enjoy conflict, I enjoy crushing a spirit and having my own crushed. ALL of my characters start as servants and slaves, common workers. All lose the majority of the time. Ive never needed a war to find and create conflict roleplay and dynamics, nor will I EVER.

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

(( Deco is right about that, I myself play as a Holm Navy Captain on my Alt Character and we are not aggressive to anyone. Though this whole crusade has made me think about what I can do since I play on two characters who are unrelated. One of those Characters is a Knight of Oren and the Other is of course the Holm Navy Captain. Though since they are both in separate ways of warfare I doubt it will be much conflict for myself. ))

[DecoLamb 959]

[[Well I think, Shas, your navy character would be at sea with Shu. So youd be able to focus on your Oren knight. If we actually get legit reasoning for the attack, it WOULD be a fun battle. I always have fun rping with Moggy. Same with Braxis. (Also known as bwaxie waxie) I have no problem losing. Heck look at Lux, Lavorta, Decora, Cao... well all of them theyve all had PERMANANT changes and loss because of rp. Lavorta went to being strong and sassy southern belle to meek and terrified of all dark elves and the dark. Caoimeh lost her first love, Decora was torn to shreds by undead and her OWN HUSBAND betraying her. Ciar was killed by her OWN LIFEMATE, Lux was the daughter of happyshackles... need I go on with the losses under happy's hands?

Ots not about the loss. Its about the rp. Its about the story. And the story here? There is no climb to the climax at all! So many chapters have been ripped from the center the entire book has been ruined. This.. its a disgrace to the name of roleplay. It is a travesty, murder upon the art that is character creation and the immersion of playing it.

I know there can be a much better production put in display here. I refuse to select a sub par, broken, empty hearted creation such as this.

I want the ultimate. And this is not it.))

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

(( Well Deco if they find no reasoning there probably won't be an attack on Holm, otherwise it would be an OOC reason and we all know what that equals to, I am not worried to much myself I am looking forward to my fights against these "unholy" people just as long as it is done better such as mentioning why they are unholy not just simply stating they are ))

[Jay Lenos 384]

((These are all up for changes (locations), so we are actually going to work this out separately with each initial location. We have started to talk to holm and will work from there))

[craotor 617]

This is going to be crushed by ooc reasons....

[Agnub 605]

People need to remember what forum this is in. HUMAN ROLEPLAY! NOT the warclaim forum.

It's a precursor to a possible crusade and any warclaims that might follow. There is a meeting being held in the Holy Oren Empire sub-forum to hammer out the details. Consider this post kind of a teaser in a way for what MIGHT happen in the near future.

Also, for those that wish to know: Holm is currently not on the radar for Oren to attack as there's a missionary there of some sort *Pastor Petrus, I believe). As the island is a part of the church (so they claim) it would be reasonable to assume that they will help supply the crusades. As with the real crusades however, the church looks down upon those member states that fail to "take up the cross" and help in some fashion.

Currently being discussed for attack are the Mori, High Elves, Enismor/Nectar Island, and Armaluna. If proper reasoning is not found, then they won't be attacked. Capisce?))

[The Best Basileus 97]

((Only thing is that the Crusades in real life were, at first, a response to agressive activity. When the militant Ottoman Turks came to power, they started messing the Byzantines up, and the Byzantines called upon Western Europe for assistance in the battle, whereupon the Pope called for a "Crusade." The first Crusade actually took place before even the Great Schism, so the connections between Europe and the Byzantines were relatively close. Europe would not ignore threats to the Byzantine Empire either, because they were essentially a buffer between most of Europe and the Islamic world. Even though this has almost no bearing on a fictional world, it still has a bit of application. The extremely expensive Crusades were a huge economic drain on Europe. These campaigns would not have been undertaken if there was not sufficient reasoning. The religion could not have accounted for the reasoning, because holding the "Holy Lands" had no precedent in the Bible. Thus, unless it is different in Oren, and I believe that the Orenian religion is actually much more lax than Medieval Catholicism was, there must be adequate reasoning to attack each of these nations seperately.))

[Myoni 56]

((When there's not sufficent Roleplay to begin with, it should be crushed by the same amount of it.

(( Hey X I want to kill Y's, you're going to help me or my boys are going to raid your castle. ))

(( Okay okay! Lets say we met up in my palace and had all this great roleplay!))

(( Make it happen. ))

*a paragraph about how A and X meet secretly. Another paragraph of how A has this brilliant plan to eliminate Y's. X grins and maniacally laughs before accepting. All posted by X*

This honestly sums up the entirety of planning and RP that has ever gone into a Warclaim since I joined Oren. Racism is -fine- for personal confrontations but until you have something THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE CONCRETE REASON, you have -nothing-. Find some real beef you have with all of these people and then you can have your crusade but this is nothing but Drama and PVP-lust on the part of the planners.

Yeah Religious Zeal is a suitable reason, a stagnant military force is fine as well, but there needs to be RP for it; The HIGH PONTIFF giving fiery speeches about the unholy and the heretics and how god wills their destruction in the middle of Arethor several times a day is how you nurture that Zeal. Military stagnation is soldiers turning into highwaymen and bandits because they want conflict their nation isn't giving them, and a war is a consideration for that. But both of these need an event to trigger them.

Military Stagnation was the main cause of World War I, several military powers eager to show off their prowess but they still needed a reason to go to war, that being the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. The Crusades would have died out instantly if the Pope did already have people kissing his boots to please God.

Oren is and has not done any of these, not to mention Burkester isn't the leader of a multinational religion, no he's the head of a national church, much like England, and he still answers to the head of the nation, The Emperor Godfrey Horen, King Henry in this example. You're appointed to the position, not selected by Divine Right. So, you still answer to Godfrey Burk.

(Godfrey) barges into the Palace after Flay, and swings his morning-star onto an arch of the hall, chunks of stone from the arch fly and crumble off. ''WHO SAID CRUSADE!!'' he shouts, he is adorned in white golden striped armored, wearing a winged helm and on the top of the helm a dragon stands.

''GOD WILLS IT!!'' looks towards his scribe ''Call every Noble because we are going!''

having a crazyed eyes he looks towards August and says ''This is going to be fun, Hahahahhaha'' he laughs.

Looks towards Jorgen to his left, ''Where going on a Crusade!''

Looks like this toybox is going to war.

))

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

((Only thing is that the Crusades in real life were, at first, a response to agressive activity. When the militant Ottoman Turks came to power, they started messing the Byzantines up, and the Byzantines called upon Western Europe for assistance in the battle, whereupon the Pope called for a "Crusade." The first Crusade actually took place before even the Great Schism, so the connections between Europe and the Byzantines were relatively close. Europe would not ignore threats to the Byzantine Empire either, because they were essentially a buffer between most of Europe and the Islamic world. Even though this has almost no bearing on a fictional world, it still has a bit of application. The extremely expensive Crusades were a huge economic drain on Europe. These campaigns would not have been undertaken if there was not sufficient reasoning. The religion could not have accounted for the reasoning, because holding the "Holy Lands" had no precedent in the Bible. Thus, unless it is different in Oren, and I believe that the Orenian religion is actually much more lax than Medieval Catholicism was, there must be adequate reasoning to attack each of these nations seperately.))

(( I don't think that is entirely correct there, the First Crusade had one intention capture Jerusalem I am unfamiliar with the Second Crusade but I know the Third Crusade was meant to be one to recapture Jerusalem and restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Though I do not know anything else of the Crusades against the Islamic nations but I know some information on the Northern Crusades against the pagan Kingdoms ))

[Supremacy 3361]

((You have seen the conflict between science and religion in recent history - if you brought that back say 600 years, there were no Godless science loving xenophobic arian elves in a fortress city, but in LOTC There are. Personally, atleast for Haelun'or, this seems to suffice atleast in my view.))