[Discussion] Skill System Changes

[Casamir 42]

Oh the one thing I would like to see (just paid enough attention to notice) I have a 60% chance to make a golden sword, but only a 45% chance to repair it? I use sooo many ingots repairing it to full durability after making it, that I could easily make a ton of semi good swords opposed to making one good one. Maybe change around the %'s on the crafting chance,I like them there, but a Higher chance to make something than to repair it is kinda madness.

Going back to my first point yet again, I would gladly be a level 150 smith, and focus on smithing if it would get rid of these percentages, I like them there, they add value to the crafted items, as lesser smiths will have a hard time ect ect and only so many would be willing to you know, go the distance to be THE smith.

[Roric(heroofwinds9) 1]

I think the main thing should be limitless skill resets like maybe make a command for it. Because It limits the characters I can play as. I have 100 swords 100 blacksmithing and 75 archery. Therefore I could only ever play a character with the vocation of a swords man, blacksmith, or an archer. The lack of free skill resets limits the diversity of characters I could play as without having to grind.

well the problem with that is that people might just change skills for unfair advantages

[Sony 3]

Buff Axes?

[Weeberlore(Seardrick) 12]

It would be hard to code but, I think the level cap should go up as a character ages. This could be possible by using player cards and the time one has existed.

Another thing that would go along with this is, the more skills you know the less xp you get for the rest of the skills you try learning. This would go with real life as it is harder to learn new things as you age and are use to certain things.

[Lego XBOX 915]

I have thought about the downsides of the skill system downsides. I totally agree that crafting is a pain and I agree with Cyndicate's point. If we want to keep a grinding type of skill system, we should simplify it so there is a minimum of self sufficiency. I wrote up a whole leveling plan based off the 1.2.5 skills we have. It sums up to classing different skills under Agility, Intellect and Strength.

Below is a simple suggestion:

STRENGTH

Perks:

• Increased Primary Resources *
  
• Increased Meelee Damage *
  
• Increased Knockback [in Combat] **
  
• Increased Repair **
  
• Increased Health ***
  

RP Reasoning: When one is stronger, one can obtain more goods using brute strength; deliver more damage to enemies furthermore make them stagger; repair weaponry making it more sturdy; and withstand more wounds.

Skills Under Strength: Swordsmanship **, Axemastery ***, Wrestling *, Blacksmithing [Crafting] **, Woodcutting [Felling] ***, Woodcutting [Crafting] **, Excavation *, Mining ***.

AGILITY

Perks:

• Increased Long-Range Damage *
  
• Increased Fish p/catch *
  
• Increased Evasion [Negating Fall and Normal Damage] **
  
• Increased Sprinting Speed **
  
• Increased Meelee/Longrange Damage when Sneaking [Potentially] **
  
• Certain Invisibility when Sneaking [Potentially] ***
  
• Increased Critical Hits ***
  

RP Reasoning: When one is agile, one has the patience to fire a bow and catch fish; the ability to evade brute attacks and to land appropriately when falling; to run faster to escape danger; the stealth to sneak without being seen and to assassinate; and the speed to hit people in the critical points.

Skills Under Agility: Swordsmanship *, Archery ***, Wrestling **, Fishing **, Farming *, Excavation *, Stealth [potentially] ***.

INTELLECT

Perks:

• Increased Agricultural Goods [When Farming] *
  
• Increased Healing [Potentially] *
  
• Increased Food/Ores Cooked p/fuel **
  
• Increased Crafting Products **
  
• Increased Potion Effects [Potentially] ***
  
• Increased Treasure Found [When Excavating/Mining] ***
  

RP Reasoning: When one has an increased intellect, one knows when fruit and wheat is ripe and when to plant it; when something has been cooked to its optimum point; when a potion will obtain its maximum potential; how to heal wounds on friends as the monks do; how to create weapons and tools durably and with technique; and knows where treasure can be found.

Skills Under Agility: Cooking ***, Blacksmithing [Crafting] *, Blacksmithing [smelting] ***, Fishing *, Farming **, Woodcutting [Crafting] *, Excavation *, Herbalism [Potentially] ***.

---

Indications: In the perks, the amount of stars mean the amount of leveling one needs to get them so one star is low level, three stars in high level. In the skills under a certain main category, the amount of stars mean the amount of exp you get in that certain category when you do something related to such skill. Example by killing monsters with an axe I pure-level STR while killing monsters with a sword levels STR [More] and AGI [Lesser Extent].

Level Cap: I suppose with only 3 main skills the level maximum in each main could be 100 and thus the level cap be 125 [Ender may get 150, Aether 175]. A new player could start with 5 skill points to distribute and exp would be easier to get without the need to grind using a certain method.

---

Pros:

• RP would be easier.
  
• There would be a minimum of self-sufficience.
  
• A player wouldn't need to grind if they didn't want to get bonuses.
  
• It would reward players.
  
• It wouldn't force RP.
  
• Bad RPers would need to learn to RP by watching others.
  

Cons

• People may go back to their caves and isolate themselves [doesn't affect the good RPers].
  
• There may be a decrease in skill resets.
  

If the current skill system is left in place, I think that skills should reward those who focus on them and not penalize those who don't as such to maintain the playability of a character.

[onegarion 1]

I'm going to say it again. Stop complaining about grinding it isn't bad. If you actually do your job in game you gain levels quickly. Even pick up a skill that supports your main one. Archery get lumberjack, Swords/Axes get Blacksmith, Cooking either farming or a combat skill. Don't get 3 skills that don't meld well. Like Farming, Fishing, and Lumberjack. Not that I'm sure anyone has done that.

Also we don't need skill resets. Your character isn't going to go from I am a major Swordsman and next "Uh how do i use swords?" There is such a thing called /delevel. Progressively lower your stats. I've done it a number of times already. Suck it up and support the devs. Its no easy task to code this and they made it pretty realistic. Learn to use the commands and stop complaining about "grinding" which isn't really that big of a deal. Its part of life. Deal with it.

[Ever 2648]

I'm going to say it again. Stop complaining about grinding it isn't bad. If you actually do your job in game you gain levels quickly. Even pick up a skill that supports your main one. Archery get lumberjack, Swords/Axes get Blacksmith, Cooking either farming or a combat skill. Don't get 3 skills that don't meld well. Like Farming, Fishing, and Lumberjack. Not that I'm sure anyone has done that.

Also we don't need skill resets. Your character isn't going to go from I am a major Swordsman and next "Uh how do i use swords?" There is such a thing called /delevel. Progressively lower your stats. I've done it a number of times already. Suck it up and support the devs. Its no easy task to code this and they made it pretty realistic. Learn to use the commands and stop complaining about "grinding" which isn't really that big of a deal. Its part of life. Deal with it.

Farming, fishing, and lumberjacking doesn't go together well? That's the ultimate outdoors-man right there.

And we do kinda need skill resets. What about all the characters who've spent years mastering herbalism and first aid? Those players are getting gimped because they can't preform the minecraft mechanics, even though their character knows how to.

I still like this update, though.

[Parading 302]

So you think it's okay for us to grind for a skill our character already should have?

Exactley that is why I think we should start out with 300 skill points it will cut out useless grinding and make more room for rp.

[Diri/GreenKoopaBros 58]

Okay, First off, grinding creates story and history. If I wouldn't have grinded my swords at one point, I would have never been brave enough to cut through the Desert and meet three other guys fighting of an "army" of Monsters (literally over 100 mobs by some ruins) And, if you were able to just get 300 skill points at the beginning, there would be no use for apprenticeships and you wouldn't feel as accomplished when finally mastering a skill.

Now, I love everything on this server. I'm never bored, and, if I ever do get bored, rp is only a boat ride away. But, like I said in the previous paragragh, I'm proud to have 100 farming and cooking, because I earned it, and it wasn't given to me. I have been able to adapt to this new change rather easily, but other people seem to think of it as a burden. Tell me this, if you were able to level up your blacksmithing to 100 by just distributing the points, would you be as proud and dedicated of your skill if you hadn't earned it?

That brings me to the level 100 problem. I am a level 100 cook, and I have an 88% chance of making chicken. That is completely unfair. If I'm a legendary chef, I should never have to worry about making mistakes in the kitchen, with chicken OR Cake (which I have a 58% chance of cooking two of them.). I am perfectly happy with everything...but that.

[Parading 302]

Okay, First off, grinding creates story and history. If I wouldn't have grinded my swords at one point, I would have never been brave enough to cut through the Desert and meet three other guys fighting of an "army" of Monsters (literally over 100 mobs by some ruins) And, if you were able to just get 300 skill points at the beginning, there would be no use for apprenticeships and you wouldn't feel as accomplished when finally mastering a skill.

Now, I love everything on this server. I'm never bored, and, if I ever do get bored, rp is only a boat ride away. But, like I said in the previous paragragh, I'm proud to have 100 farming and cooking, because I earned it, and it wasn't given to me. I have been able to adapt to this new change rather easily, but other people seem to think of it as a burden. Tell me this, if you were able to level up your blacksmithing to 100 by just distributing the points, would you be as proud and dedicated of your skill if you hadn't earned it?

That brings me to the level 100 problem. I am a level 100 cook, and I have an 88% chance of making chicken. That is completely unfair. If I'm a legendary chef, I should never have to worry about making mistakes in the kitchen, with chicken OR Cake (which I have a 58% chance of cooking two of them.). I am perfectly happy with everything...but that.

First off grinding never creates story or history.You would get far more story and history from just traveling.Also it makes more rp sense not to grind anyway.Your character has been coking for 700 years and you have to grind to get to 100?Doesn't make much sense does it?

[elsewb1939 25]

I like the skill system.. but a few things I don't like. I hate grinding, but I like it. The reason I hate it, is because it takes ages! The reason I do like it, is because when you earn a skill grinding, it's fun to get that feeling that your improving. But maybe you guys could bump the exp rates when you kill mobs a bit higher.. :P

The one other thing I don't like about the skill system, is that, as many others have said, when your 100 in a skill, like smithing, you should rarely fail at making things!

[Casamir 42]

First off grinding never creates story or history.You would get far more story and history from just traveling.Also it makes more rp sense not to grind anyway.Your character has been coking for 700 years and you have to grind to get to 100?Doesn't make much sense does it?

What? Really? Never creates story or history? So me apprenticing under a smith, to get my skill up and to have a chance to handle a mass amount of raw crafting materials I wouldn't be able to have access to, and the story of my character learning how to be better at smithing, isn't a story or history? I should just jump to 100 and what, make a short formed note "blah blah smithed for a while blah blah good now"

Why should Skill points be handed out? it's not like you don't get starting skill points, and if everyone is a level 100 smith, what makes people come to me instead of ingvar the sledgehammer? Whose character is like age 10 and a max level smith? If you where born at age 20, and had somewhat common education for a 20 year old programmed in, would you have the experiences, memories, and same life as a newborn who grew to that age? of course not.

I'm all for debating this, but you need to bring more to the table than "grinding sucks, free ride ploz" For example, like the guy you quoted says, it adds story, and history, and I'm adding to the side of "don't hand out skill points like candy" with a few things, what about those who had to work for it? What then would separate smiths from one another if there was no aspiring smiths? just Masters? Plus gaining those levels gives you a sense of achievement.

When I had my first 60 in wow, that was a big deal for me, it took me a year to hit that. The first time I maxed out my Blacksmithing and mining that was cool too, even with every expansion, hitting mix level again, focusing on new stuff, like pet collecting, mount collecting, hell I even leveled fishing and cooking to max in burning crusade after seeing the prices I was paying for my food buff every raid in the AH. You get a sense of accomplishment.

RP games, and settings are not just about the interaction, but character Growth. What fun would stuff like DnD be if you never got to prestige class, or if you couldn't get any new feats? you just started with what you started? or how fun would it be to start with a huge Attack Bonus and multiple attacks, with crazy magic gear fighting CR ratings like kobolds in starting adventures? (maybe kind of fun but only the lol one roll one hit part)

[Diri/GreenKoopaBros 58]

Casamir...Thank you. I couldn't have said it better, myself.

Oh...and...Parading_Bull? Are you seriously telling me that you have the patience and time to write pages and pages of lore, background, and history of your 700 year old character and how they were able to master set "legendary skills"? Wouldn't you rather be playing than writing? I mean, this isn't a text base rpg, and I doubt that you could memorize every single experience that you ever had? It would be a LOT easier to memorize "experiences" than "words". And, having actually "lived" it with your character, on the server, you would have a lot more fun telling the story of about a time your character created his first diamond sword on the Anvil if you had actually been there to do it and was actually surprised that you did it.

Do you seriously want to deprive yourself of that satisfaction?

[MrGrendel 10]

It's like they say: Skill systems are like fish, everyone has one, and... wait that's not right. :lol:

For the most part, I find the LotC system is pretty brilliant, however if I had a magical Vaqwand and could wave it at anything, well, here are my opinions.

I understand that coding is a huge time sink, and appreciate the work that has gone into the server, I had a fun time here when I still played more regularly.

1. Grinding is not a good thing. But I agree, neither is leveling up too quickly and having nothing to do. You can have the best of both worlds, however!

For example: Skill point gain is initially practically immediate. (Bear with me-)Anything that grants xp (at your level) basically gives you a skill point off the bat. However, every point you reach in any skill puts a "learning block" for that skill on your character. The duration should be enough time to reasonably take a break for a RPing session. Skills under 25 maybe an hour block, skills 26-50 2 hours, skills 51-75 4 hours and skills 76-100 6 hours. Or perhaps it would be simpler to alternate the timer in minecraft-day/night increments as a counter.

(Though this is an example, it means you would reach 25 in about two 12 hour days of playing, 50 in about six 12 hour days, 75 in fifteen such days and 100 in twenty-seven such days. Another nice thing is you can tweak the numbers to precisely how long you want it to take, no matter how users go about things, so long as you have the learning blocks working properly.)

Result for players? You can go do some skilling up and get your next point fairly quickly, and then you have time to roleplay as you please while your mind "clears" before you can take on some more learning. As a bonus it may reduce environmental strain, since it reduces the amount of raw material needed by massive amounts. It can still take just as long to skill up, but instead of chopping down 100,000 trees, you might only have to chop down 100.

2. Combat and support roles. There's been a bit of controversy about certain skills lately, it seems, and there's an elegant (partial) solution to the issue of "X beats Y 1 on 1," etc: Declare some of them support skills, decrease the point at which they have all of their useful bonuses, and make them less effective choices, which is balanced out instead by convenience (already implemented as they stand) and lower cost.

For instance, archery is a support role, it has built in advantages in the form of allowing range, making expensive armor less needed, attacks less dangerous, and bows are far cheaper than good melee weapons. I don't think people appreciate how ginormous an advantage it is to be able to do damage from range at all - not getting hit in the first place beats free diamond armor! Wrestling similarly is a convenient skill, since you can do without an expensive weapon.

What I am getting at is two things. First of all, both of these should not be superior or even equal combat choices in the first place, since they already offer convenience advantages simply by how they work right out of the box. On the other hand, they should also not be as difficult to learn, leaving them the skills of choice for characters who want to invest their points more heavily elsewhere, ie crafters or sneaks, and so on. It's not completely fair in terms of the game system to expect an archer to invest 100 points into something and be told he can't be as good as someone who put 100 points in something else, when both are "combat" skills.

So, while I won't get into the gritty details of balance (it's always a complex topic), I would suggest that wrestling and archery are 1 on 1 made poorer choices than a melee weapon skill, but all of their best bonuses are packed in by skill level 50 or 75. If they have any bonuses beyond that, it should be purely convenience, such as not using arrows for archery, less fall damage for wrestlers, etc.

This allows archers or wrestlers to more easily focus on stealth, crafting, or another combat skill as well, and vice versa for crafters, sneaks etc. Or you could essentially max out both archery and wrestling and have both long and melee range for a large discount. It also makes them more viable backup skill sets for dedicated warriors who just really want to be masters of arms.

And again, it eliminates the controversy of "X is better than Y 1 on 1," because the answer is that they are not intended to be on equal footing any more in the first place, and in exchange you get more skill points to put elsewhere as well as the convenience of saving on gear, being at range, etc. (Skill reset for people with high skills in either might be desirable of course.)

3. Armor. (Snip.) High level melee weapon skills, axe and sword, should overcome armor movement penalty. That also helps with not having armored archer tanks kiting people around. You already take a huge wallet penalty in buying and maintaining armor, there should be a way around the other penalties for the skill-sets that really rely on combat and armor, ie can't damage at range or have high block chances. If diamond armor is too common, that just means diamonds are too common, good armor should be good. (Maybe some more outright equipment breaking factors need to be introduced...)