[✗] [Amendment] No Nazstic

[Ztrog 1031]

OLD:

Spoiler

- A Mystic may be created by being Conjoined with a phantom by a Wight or TA holding Mystic. The ability to conjoin is to be marked on one's MA.
- A Mystic may be Conjoined with an existing Phantom, provided the Phantom consents OOCly - as such will result in the denial of their application, as they are effectively PK’d in the process. 
- The ghost or graven may be either an NPC or PK’d character, requiring OOC consent. The NPC or character cannot tell the mystic of their death in line with normal death and phantom rules. 
- A Mystic character may not be Conjoined with one of their player’s former characters.
- T1 and T2 Mysticism require [1] slot; T3 and T4 require [2] slots; and to become a Wight takes [3] slots. Additionally, to reach [T3] the Mystic must be conjoined a second time.
- A Mystic may not drop Mysticism. The only way a Mystic may be disconnected is by a Wight sapping them. 
- They will be unable to pick up Mysticism again unless this process is reversed by the same or another Wight. 
- Mysticism is incompatible with other heavily soul-altering arts or creatures, such as Frost Witchdom and Siliti, or Holy/Deific Magics. It retains compatibility with Voidal Magic, alongside other Dark Magics except where specifically deemed incompatible. 

 

NEW:

Spoiler

- A Mystic may be created by being Conjoined with a phantom by a Wight or TA holding Mystic. The ability to conjoin is to be marked on one's MA.
- A Mystic may be Conjoined with an existing Phantom, provided the Phantom consents OOCly - as such will result in the denial of their application, as they are effectively PK’d in the process. 
- The ghost or graven may be either an NPC or PK’d character, requiring OOC consent. The NPC or character cannot tell the mystic of their death in line with normal death and phantom rules. 
- A Mystic character may not be Conjoined with one of their player’s former characters.
- T1 and T2 Mysticism require [1] slot; T3 and T4 require [2] slots; and to become a Wight takes [3] slots. Additionally, to reach [T3] the Mystic must be conjoined a second time.
- A Mystic may not drop Mysticism. The only way a Mystic may be disconnected is by a Wight sapping them. 
- They will be unable to pick up Mysticism again unless this process is reversed by the same or another Wight. 
- Mysticism is incompatible with other heavily soul-altering arts or creatures, such as Frost Witchdom, Naztherak or Holy/Deific Magics. It retains compatibility with Voidal Magic, alongside other Dark Magics except where specifically deemed incompatible. 

 

REASONING:

I was made aware that Naztherak and mystic were compatible with one another despite who it does seem both alter your soul in more form. The Naz makes a pact for your very soul with the power of the hells, and being conjoined says you cannot be conjoined if your soul has been altered. Even if it's not due to some true alterations of the soul. Having these two big dark magics mix while ectoplasm leading to being harmed by the malflame seems like it should make the Naz just combust upon gaining the ectoplasm inside of you from the conjoinment. Also another reason for this amendment is to remove the mentioning of Siliti from Mysticism as they no longer exist. 

[UnBaed 8966]

Your reasoning is a little odd, for arguing about lore conflicts.  To my knowledge, I don't think Naztherak are filled with malflame - just like Mystics aren't filled with ectoplasm.  There's no risk of combustion, and there's no way they can cast two magics at the same time (unless they powergame like me)

 

Both of them possess the ability to conjure the material.  As for heavy soul alteration, the previous mentions seems like it was tied to massive slot-taking magics, that transform the character more into a creature (with a CA) or be influenced by a dieity that would be insulted with the presence of a magic that defies their powers.

 

I don't care if this is accepted or denied personally, though if you're wanting to set a precedent for the lore - you should also look to include some other magics.  Why doesn't blood magic become incompatible, for how it alters the soul?  Or necromancy?

[Ztrog 1031]

41 minutes ago, UnBaed said:

Your reasoning is a little odd, for arguing about lore conflicts.  To my knowledge, I don't think Naztherak are filled with malflame - just like Mystics aren't filled with ectoplasm.  There's no risk of combustion, and there's no way they can cast two magics at the same time (unless they powergame like me)

 

Both of them possess the ability to conjure the material.  As for heavy soul alteration, the previous mentions seems like it was tied to massive slot-taking magics, that transform the character more into a creature (with a CA) or be influenced by a dieity that would be insulted with the presence of a magic that defies their powers.

 

I don't care if this is accepted or denied personally, though if you're wanting to set a precedent for the lore - you should also look to include some other magics.  Why doesn't blood magic become incompatible, for how it alters the soul?  Or necromancy?

For the most part I had made this amendment as I was talking to some others about this. And all just kinda thought just having both of these that work at the same time were really odd. So I just thought I'd make this since it felt like it should've been the case already imo. If it's passed or not isn't a huge deal to me I just think it's really odd it's not already the case.

[The King Of The Moon 5150]

4 hours ago, Ztrog said:

Having these two big dark magics mix while ectoplasm leading to being harmed by the malflame seems like it should make the Naz just combust upon gaining the ectoplasm inside of you from the conjoinment.

Malflame burns anima into malleus, not ectoplasm. The reason most phantoms are harmed by malflame is because their souls are effectively laid bare in an ectoplasmic body (which offers far less protection than flesh).
You're conflating ectoplasm with anima. You can find the differences between the two here:

Further, this line you mention as an explanation is very clearly targeted toward CAs, as well as magics linked to Aengudaemons that would not abide mysticism (e.g. Paladinism). It explicitly allows everything else.

Spoiler

- Mysticism is incompatible with other heavily soul-altering arts or creatures, such as Frost Witchdom and Siliti, or Holy/Deific Magics. It retains compatibility with Voidal Magic, alongside other Dark Magics except where specifically deemed incompatible. 

There's plenty of IC as well as NPC/ Worldlore precedent for both present and past mystics that were and are:
-Seers whose souls are claimed by the Daemon Vaasek
-Wielders of Voidal Magic which marks the soul
-Wielders of Voidal Feats which alter the soul (ie Scions)
-Devils/ 'Cursed Children' whose souls are marked for taking by the Red Prince (the progenitor of Naztherak and the inferi, importantly) 
-Necromancers whose souls are Darkened (and are only incompatible in the current iteration due to slot requirements; there are past player as well as current non-player characters capable of doing both for a reason)
-Naztherak themselves, past and presently played, both with and without pacts promising their souls to the Pentacle since it was written.

Though I agree this specific redline could and should be written more clearly, there isn't really much of a lore argument for being unable to do both.

Also given as Unbaed has already pointed out they cannot be cast alongside eachother, as well as the realities that neither offer any combat advantage when not casting to my knowledge, as well as the reality both are already restrained by multiple slot requirements, there's not really a balance argument for it either.
A mystic or naztherak filling their other slots with most any other combat magic would be far more potent in conflict than one who'd committed themselves to these two largely ritual and CA-creation centred magics.

There's a case for both pertaining to Zar'akal and Wights respectively as being unable to use the other magics in their current forms, certainly, but not the average living person.

The Synod perceives naztherak as antithetical to the 'higher calling' of mysticism because it condemns souls in an irreparable way to Moz Strimoza, a condition arguably worse than Ebrietaes, but this is entirely rooted in character culture and morality, not objective 'cans' and 'can'ts'.

If someone wants to be giga evil and pervert that dark magic to an even darker, less subjectively immortal cause, then they absolutely should be able to.

Will it ultimately impact my roleplay or anyone else's if this gets passed at this moment in time? No, probably not.

But taking away the potential for roleplay stories to be told without much justification beyond "it seems weird" isn't a valuable use of lore, in my mind (and yes, I'm sure people will try and find a hypocrisy in me taking this stance).

Spoiler

Though if you feel there could be a cleaner, more defined relationship between the two, why not write one, instead of stomping out the potential for it to happen at all?
A marriage piece could be awesome, delving into the logical outcome of a person whose magic warps souls that has consumed additional souls for their other magic; making a naz-mystic's conjoinments thrash and squirm and resent their host as they're also doomed to being dragged to Moz Strimoza with them some day could be a great set piece for both worldbuilding and character development in a situation like this.

 

[satinkira 5969]

the NecroMysticismSubsumation WILL be real

[saint swag 2447]

This lore has been self-denied.