Void View - What do you think?

[_AzureLexi 766]

3 hours ago, Benleft said:

[Snip!]

If I might add a miscellaneous thought, would this include "mixed elements"? That's something pretty common in elemental magic systems which I was disappointed to see didn't necessarily exist on LotC (outside of potential spellforges), and I think evocations being folded into one magic system would give very interesting room for mages to play around with mixing elements for their own flavor and individuality. Such as fire/water being able to fill an area with scalding steam, earth/fire creating lava, fire/air producing smoke, etc. Elemental magic is a very versatile tool, and in the current lore it's mostly a few specific ways you can use the four classical elements, with all spells in isolation of each other. And maybe letting people hyper-specialize in a single magic too? Like blue fire would be a specialization for pure fire mages, fire/air mages would be able to replace their fire spells with smoke, etc. I could certainly see it being a pain to balance, but it would provide a lot of diversity in how different mages may use similar magics.

[kujo_ 2510]

4 hours ago, Benleft said:

I'm not sure whether or not this would be a perfect fix (I hope it is because I love attention), but I think it could help bring the magic in a more soulful direction. Most of my angst with voidal magic stems from there being way too many spells. The system Wowj and I dreamed up doesn't exactly eliminate that, but it certainly simplifies it. 

 

i see the vision. what @_AzureLexisaid with combining the elements would be cool as well, like fire and water users being able to shoot steam/smoke or something. unrelated but im curious on your thoughts about making tiers a slot. a jack of all trades type mage would achieve basic spells but a lot of variety, and a wizard who wants to specialize earth evo or wtv can do the crazy t5 spells.

[Onnensr 1908]

Narratively, we had a very similar issue on FRP with our 1 for 1 warhammer copy-pasta warp "void" as LOTC today has. It's the living actual embodiment of nothing ever happens. When something does happen, it's either some level 100000 million billion megaton super world destroying evil that nobody could possibly form an emotional and character connection to and has little to no lasting repercussions, or it's what I like to call "hungry hungry hippo's"; that is to say a bunch of ontologically evil Lovecraft rejects that have the sole purpose of eating and killing, the 2020's lazy writing bad guy equivalent to what orcs used to be. 

Generalizing, because Daengie actually just finished a Voidal Horror storyline that I thought was enjoyable, I'd say the lore writers who've touched the Void in the past struggle to capture what is the fundamental "theme" of the Void: Cosmic Horror. Contrary to popular belief, this is not simply tentacle monsters, and in fact no tentacle monsters have to be present at all to have cosmic horror. Junji Ito's UZUMAKI is a masterpiece of the genre, and accomplishes this by the bizarre, alien, perverse intrusion of spirals in the people's lives of a small Japanese village. The horror of that story breaks the conventions of the established reality in a slow, insidious way. It invades the day-to-day of people, starting small, and creeping up to something revolting. One day the clouds are spiraling unusually, could simply be some cool clouds! A little later, a girl's father is twisting himself in circles inside a washing basin.

The Void, and related Voidal Storylines, could really benefit from having things be less life and death, and more of a snowball of the grotesque and strange. Your purple veins aren't scary!!!! I want your eyeballs to hang out your skull by half a yard, and stare independently of each other!!! Our cringe 40k property theft will never go away, so we ought to make the most of it, and honor Lovecraft's work that spawned the media that spawned the media we so shamelessly steal from. 

[Aelesh 540]

7 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Unless I've not read/experienced the giant amount of deeplore/hidden lore the Void has (and I probably have not, in fairness) - I don't see how the Void, a nothing, can be "good" or "evil" in the context of how other good and evil is considered (Paladins/Templars are "good", Inferi/Necromancers and their constructs are "Bad"). Yea, it's definitely bad in the context if the Veil were ever broken enough, the Void would consume everything - but that's devoid of any rational thought, unless the Void is some hivemind intelligence that plots and plans like every other bit of angueldaemonica lore.  

 

Spoiler

"But though time just began to take shape, in its primal, dismayed youth, it was apparent to the Creator that it may soon run out. The Void clawed at His domain yearningly, seeking to consume it like every other flicker of light that once danced across its murk, and indeed the Veil suffered a weakening in due time. Thus, the Creator made a great sacrifice -- the Primordials were made from His clay, from His existential being and lawless form, and set upon paths destined to keep His Creation secure and thriving."

 

"...The Vigil was made from the plucked rib of the good Aedifex, and then cast to the emptiness which bordered the dark Veil of Creation. There, the Primordial was assigned the duty of holding back those who would wish to invade the Creator’s orderly domain and keeping the Veil strong in the absence of its good father."

 

"...From half of His soul, the Creator formed the Creator Shards. Through the halving and shattering of His spirit, those known as the Immortals, the Aengudaemons, were cast out into the vast spaciousness of Creation, destined to inherit great power, but would assume incorporeality, for they were Immortal, and physical formalities incite expiration. The Creator Shards drifted through the cosmos absently, awaiting their time to take true shape and flourish."

 

"As the Creator plucked himself apart for the betterment of His domain, the Veil that surrounded it faltered, weakened by the good father’s willing downward spiral. It is through and along all of the Veil that the soulless Voidal Horrors, who were given shape through inhabiting the smeared border between Creation and Void, rallied, for they sought to invade and devour. Though the Vigil’s efforts to decimate them were unrelenting, the Voidal Horrors bore no limit to number; their gnashing, twisting, un-uniform masses drew forth from the Everything and Nothing beyond, giving no pause in this time of the Creator’s weakness.

 

When the Vigil cried out to the cosmos for help, it was not his brother, the Preserver, who departed from the Sun to assist, but rather the hundreds of thousands of young Creator Shards that still danced along with the Souls of unformed Men. Parting from them, the seedling Immortals converged upon the Voidal Horrors and drove the majority back. The few behemoths of the Void survived this existential retaliation, and clung to the Veil in desperate effort to retain their physicalities and unbridled power while their brethren perished, the true chaotic Void devouring their corporeal beings.

 

It is through the weakening of the Creator that the light which stemmed from the Sun flickered and grew less luminant than it was in inception. Thousands upon thousands of ungrown Aengudaemons recognized this, and thus they committed a great sacrifice of their own as an emulation of their good father. It is by investing in the nigh-endless energies bound to the Creator’s spiritual fragments that these Creator Shards became martyrs, for with a great unified burst, they embodied the same brilliant light that the Aedifex was born from. They became the Stars; lining the cosmos, and keeping the Veil clean of the Void’s tainted darkness."

 

 

I've tried to quote the important bits above but I've only skimmed through so apologies if it's not helpful.  My point is that most of the pantheon of LOTC is dead, not least the Creator himself, because of the Void's invasion.  All the remaining aengudaemons, the agents of which you mention, are in conflict with each other primarily because no one really knows what the plan is now that God is dead.  The Void committed the first great murder by breaking through the Veil, and the quakes of the chaos that introduced into the descendants' world reverberates even today.  I would go further and say that fear of the Void is what drives many aengudaemons to be as narcissistic as they are, clinging blindly to their ideologies because those ideologies are really all they have left by which to steer themselves.  Heaven is full of terrified children scrabbling to keep their playpen free of an encroaching mudslide.

[Benleft 2580]

8 hours ago, Bonito said:

[…] making tiers a slot. a jack of all trades type mage would achieve basic spells but a lot of variety, and a wizard who wants to specialize earth evo or wtv can do the crazy t5 spells.

That could be interesting. My gut reaction is that deviating from traditional tier progression can overcomplicate the magic. I don’t think combining slots and tiers will bring a ton of new stuff to the magic that couldn’t be explained away through redlines and technical writing. But if players want to pursue this, I hope they lean into it and theme the entire magic around trading your soul for power. 

[Samson Option 9652]

Could someone with better comprehension of LotC's magic system explain what is meant that Transfiguration and/or Artificery is "nerfed"? I'm pursuing Artificery to play around the idea of "mage-masonry" in that magic is being used to amend and beautify architecture, tangentially similar at least in concept to how the Targaryens in ASoIaF used their dragons to create unique architecture only they had the ability to create for their culture.

[PrimnyaQuorum 4003]

4 minutes ago, Ibn Khaldun said:

Could someone with better comprehension of LotC's magic system explain what is meant that Transfiguration and/or Artificery is "nerfed"? I'm pursuing Artificery to play around the idea of "mage-masonry" in that magic is being used to amend and beautify architecture, tangentially similar at least in concept to how the Targaryens in ASoIaF used their dragons to create unique architecture only they had the ability to create for their culture.

 

Compared to the other Feats (Arcane Scion, Eminence, Voidstalking) Artificery offers comparatively less. Familiars/Manifestations have a long cooldown, Creation grants nothing tangible or flavorful really and requires Transfiguration to function, and Voidal Feeling is already gained from Tfig - which you'll need to fully utilize Artificery. It also takes 2 other mages aiding the would-be artificer to become one, where every other feat can be done by a single mage or with 1 mage aiding at most. Aura Sensory is already covered by various other feats or spells, and typically something already metagamed (Everyone reads a item's description, and instantly understands how to utilize a enchantment). 

 

Transfiguration takes up 2 magic slots, and while it offers plently (Voidal Feeling, Transmutation, and Enchanting namely) it doesn't offer much for those 2 slots - Abjuration and Warding have seen a fair shame of amendments in recent times because of how lackluster it is, compared to how much mana it consumes combatively. 

 

Compared to most other facets of Voidal Magic, Artificery and Tfig stand as the "weakest" - for what you say though, as a non-combative approach, they should be fine if you're willing to devote your exclusive feat slot and 2/3 MA slots minimum to the Feat and Magic, respectively.

[siglms_ 932]

I know this sounds stupid but I kind of wish voidal magic was more like basic arcane specialization magic from World of Warcraft. It may just be me, but I don't like the elemental side of it. My opinion isn't objective, obviously, but I'd love to see a more like entropic sort of magic. (Unless there is one already which I apologize for if I'm stupid.)

Edited September 8, 2024 by siglms_

[Stag 3230]

Hey! Stopped by to say the “horror stories” of Arcanism were not the magic itself. Sure lots of people nowadays gripe about how it did too much but it didn’t really. It just had many shapes doing the same effects. 95% of the magic I interacted with was freeform and crafted in the moment. You might see a spell once and never again. We kept the mechanical magic rules vague but it was also free, unrestrained, and whimsical. 

 

The issue we faced back then seems similar to the one we have now. It was the same attitude that you have described of some mages using loopholes & anything vague (which all magic was back in 2010-2016) to minmax their character. The lore games were meant to fix the loopholes and help players & moderators sort through the complexity that is magic combat. 
 

So for all it is worth it doesn’t seem like all the lore updates have solved anything. We have many new descriptions of what things actually do mechanically but we don’t have the freedom to pursue the roleplay of magic. We have gotten rid of magics deemed toxic but those same magics held the deepest connection to story. We still have mages stacking magics based off of mechanical competence. We still have players minmaxing in pursuit of total victory. We still have vague rules and loopholes and magics that “do too much.” 
 

How do we fix it? I am not exactly sure. It’s definitely up the players to make their own fun and craft their own stories. Relying on the Lore Team to supply your entertainment is foolish. They make the rules, not the fun. Magic is a vehicle and you have to know how to drive it safely and respectfully. How do we do that and still find the spontaneity? How do we develop whimsy?
 

All I know is we were doing all of that just fine back when those “horror stories” took place. 

[PrimnyaQuorum 4003]

19 minutes ago, BrandNewKitten said:

Hey! Stopped by to say the “horror stories” of Arcanism were not the magic itself. Sure lots of people nowadays gripe about how it did too much but it didn’t really. It just had many shapes doing the same effects. 95% of the magic I interacted with was freeform and crafted in the moment. You might see a spell once and never again. We kept the mechanical magic rules vague but it was also free, unrestrained, and whimsical. 

 

The issue we faced back then seems similar to the one we have now. It was the same attitude that you have described of some mages using loopholes & anything vague (which all magic was back in 2010-2016) to minmax their character. The lore games were meant to fix the loopholes and help players & moderators sort through the complexity that is magic combat. 
 

So for all it is worth it doesn’t seem like all the lore updates have solved anything. We have many new descriptions of what things actually do mechanically but we don’t have the freedom to pursue the roleplay of magic. We have gotten rid of magics deemed toxic but those same magics held the deepest connection to story. We still have mages stacking magics based off of mechanical competence. We still have players minmaxing in pursuit of total victory. We still have vague rules and loopholes and magics that “do too much.” 
 

How do we fix it? I am not exactly sure. It’s definitely up the players to make their own fun and craft their own stories. Relying on the Lore Team to supply your entertainment is foolish. They make the rules, not the fun. Magic is a vehicle and you have to know how to drive it safely and respectfully. How do we do that and still find the spontaneity? How do we develop whimsy?
 

All I know is we were doing all of that just fine back when those “horror stories” took place. 

 

I've tried my best to search for all the old Voidal Magics, but I've had no luck so far and have basically gone off word of mouth about old Voidal Magic/Mages.

 

I've heard the sentiment before that mages in the best had much more freedom, but that it wasnt really the problem - do you think players back then were more concerned with the 'whimsy' and whatnot as opposed to the 'best' mage build and so self-regulated this problem? Or has this always been a problem and the current state of lore being heavily defined hasn't changed that?

[Stag 3230]

6 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

 

I've tried my best to search for all the old Voidal Magics, but I've had no luck so far and have basically gone off word of mouth about old Voidal Magic/Mages.

 

I've heard the sentiment before that mages in the best had much more freedom, but that it wasnt really the problem - do you think players back then were more concerned with the 'whimsy' and whatnot as opposed to the 'best' mage build and so self-regulated this problem? Or has this always been a problem and the current state of lore being heavily defined hasn't changed that?

Hard to find old magic lore because it was usually vague and underdeveloped. 
 

Back then the development of magic and creating new magic was a large part of roleplay. You still had people being OP but nobody was trying to shut down someone else with roleplay. The whimsy and ritualism was more prominent from what I experienced.  Mostly you saw overpowered spells used in events and because everything was more loose it allowed magic to shine in those moments of improv.

 

edit: Also…

Magic was sometimes unique to 1-3 people. Less people used it & gaining access to it meant actually roleplaying with someone or something. It was more rare and thus it being more free-form or OP had less overall impact. As for myself I couldn’t find anyone active at the time and the magic I wanted did not exist so I wrote lore and self-taught for a full IRL year before I was tier 5. 
 

Edit 2: That also meant it was very difficult to stack magic. People didn’t have 5 different magic subtypes back then.