[Re-Write] [Voidal Lore] The Voidal Connection

[Wolfy-D 467]

3 hours ago, JustMeMorgan said:

(Those are all compatible not incompatible: golemancy and alchemy n stuff)

yeah my bad, didn't read it right. ima go back through and redo my response now that I know what it actually it.

[Animael 1500]

I'd prefer that illusion didn't have a nerf against it in the fashion that it was implemented. Action economy wise, it's already at a disadvantage. Rather than outright making it impossible to disconnect, making it so that low effort emotes that are just mind spikes are incapable of disconnecting instead would be better. With elaborate and creatively written illusions not being punished.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

5 hours ago, Wolfy-D said:

I was a little iffy when I started reading but I think it's pretty good for about decent chunk of it.

 

1. I like where you are going with the exhaustion system but it's incredibly confusing and seems hard to keep track of, not counting the part where a T5 mage could infinitely cast T3 spells without fatigue.

 

2. Making your tier have anything to do with learning feats which already have their own requirements, or rituals that have been until now just been needing to learn it (obelisk lore for example has its own rules for leading it and your rules hardly reflect that)

 

3. The redline that's says scions are incapable of aiding T4 or T5 rituals makes it literally impossible to create inert or active arcanium with the effects of scions. Because that would be considered a T5 ritual.

 

 

 

so probably just take another look at the exhaustion and fix some inconsistencies with the tier system (which overall I'm not a super big fan of but i understand your idea. maybe make it so you can start off with 2 or something because i dont really see a problem with stacking a magics and these rules would just make it a longer time to get what you want overall even though T1 through T5 is faster per slot) 

I would ask you read the Implementation and Purpose spoiler at the top; issues like these have amendments ready to go should this pass as they’re relatively minor. I will not be making it easier to spam out voidal MAs, as void mages frankly have the easiest teaching track of all magics with no chaos DC. No one else I’ve spoken with has had confusion on exhaustion, though I am listening for such

3 hours ago, Aelesh said:

 

You might make mention of how aura is itself a state of mana, as per the States of Mana post.

 

 

I try to avoid linking to other lore pages, but I can add a remark that auras should follow all mechanics/redlines of base aura lore alongside voidal specific redlines.

33 minutes ago, Animael said:

I'd prefer that illusion didn't have a nerf against it in the fashion that it was implemented. Action economy wise, it's already at a disadvantage. Rather than outright making it impossible to disconnect, making it so that low effort emotes that are just mind spikes are incapable of disconnecting instead would be better. With elaborate and creatively written illusions not being punished.

This redline not only considers voidal illusion, but seer and similar things. I had a set of things ready for illusion as well but frankly illusion mages have a LoS, unlimited range and nigh uncounterable way to DC mages through OOC arguments in 3-5 emotes. I am not going to make that easier.

[Morigung-oog 5697]

I think you're off to a great start with this, though I do think some areas are in need of tweaks/refinement.

[ClassyDryad 2367]

The infinite casting of t3 spells and the increase of exhaustion beyond the levels even current voidstalkers can do seems like eminence powercreep to me IDK. I don't personally think a mage should be able to sustain a flamethrower for 40 emotes (80 for a voidstalker now???.) Mage's should be good at casting given that unlike other magics they are fully locked into it effectively but 2 t5 4 t4 8 t3 16 t2 has been a perfectly fine system in my opinion, if a bit strong in itself.

 

Not sure what you mean by "spellforges and marts that cannot be updated to this should be shelved" is for, I can't think of any of them that have changed substantially. Are there any you have in mind?

 

Adding a compatability section to the lore is just going to be a drain on st, especially for a category like voidal. I'd just put "beastfolk are compatible, everything is compatible unless it says otherwise or lacks a soul."

 

I might of missed it but I would consider putting scion interaction within the exhaustion section because as far as I know since they just "have half the mana" but t3 spells are infinite in this scions would just be capable of casting forever as written.

[Luxury 1081]

Much cleaner than the first draft. Ive mentioned this to you before but I did just want to echo it here; requiring obelisks/voidal objects for connection doesn’t make sense when mages predate these inventions. How did the first mages connect? This was a missed opportunity to fix that logical gap, though I won’t die on this hill.

[ClassyDryad 2367]

I'd also consider including something that talks about deployables and how they work (limited to the same MAs, only one) and specify that only these can be maintained while casting another spell in combat (noncombatively people can be silly.) might be somewhere already but I missed it if so. I would also personally like to see something more creative for auras (where are my hiccups :( ) since idk magic color juice floating around you is a bit boring and you shouldn't need to be a voidstalker to make it less boring. 

Stuff I notably liked (because I focused too much on what I view as problems)

- Specifying connection as a thing you have to do
- Voidal connection FA, if marked with all your other FAs and MAs, seems like it could be useful to ST for tracking people. Also another FA for my collection...
- Not needing to do aura for noncombative casting is good its why I avoid flashy ones and I would love this.
- All around a lot of good clarifications in all respects
- Stuff being tier based rather than a separate time progression (was frustrating for newer players and could be technically be abused in a way I will not mention unless this gets passed.)
- Reduced learning time for mages who have already mastered magics is a big plus (does this mean you can self teach a magic you dropped off your own TA in 4 weeks?)
- Having a hard set mana system is a good thing, given that even if you are not powergaming current lore it often FEELS like you are to people who don't understand the casting system.
- Needing to be T5 to make arcanium is good (I still think scions should be able to make it but a lil baby wizard should not be able to.)
- I WANT MUSIN WIZARDS! PLEASE! The mice must cast.

Also cursed children are an other feat not a dark feat :)

[MonteGiant 891]

Much of this is severe Eminent Powercreep.

 

Spoiler

Even further adding in a compatibility section with restrictions on CAs, whilst not even including all the ones which are already compatible, and involving that Ordained Heraldry section is dumb. Many CAs or FAs that alter your soul are compat with Void Magic and it makes literally zero reason to change that for Herald if that is your reasoning. This write, from everything I understand as I look at it, is the culmination of much of your inherent bias packaged into one write. Infinite T3 spells is even further ******* stupid, it removes the point of even entertaining the thought of being a Voidstalker. In addition, Scion Arcanium is what? removed from history as by your write it prevents it from being created? Thaumburn is also dumb as well since now you get many extra chances for some reason (also by your words impossible to create a self pk for you are rendered unconscious via the second chance) which by extension removes the general threat of it and Thanhium as well. Also Wizard hats are forbidden to Scions for literally zero reason, which is plainly dumb asf. I would say that you have some good material here, in my eyes only the attunement part, but much of this is powercreep slop. I hope this gets Vetoed for all our sakes. 

 

[Aelesh 540]

1 hour ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

4 hours ago, Aelesh said:

Expand  

I try to avoid linking to other lore pages, but I can add a remark that auras should follow all mechanics/redlines of base aura lore alongside voidal specific redlines.

 

My key concern here was to do with the IC physics of mana, since I felt what you had written wasn't granular enough on the distinction between mana and aura.  There've been magic systems in the past that have capitalised on the difference, and I feel it's useful to say that aura isn't just runoff mana, but a special state that mana gets "burnt" into.  There's a transformation/transmutation that occurs.

 

I know it might seem pedantic, so apologies for the nitpick.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

11 minutes ago, Aelesh said:

 

My key concern here was to do with the IC physics of mana, since I felt what you had written wasn't granular enough on the distinction between mana and aura.  There've been magic systems in the past that have capitalised on the difference, and I feel it's useful to say that aura isn't just runoff mana, but a special state that mana gets "burnt" into.  There's a transformation/transmutation that occurs.

 

I know it might seem pedantic, so apologies for the nitpick.

 This is entirely valid - my goal was to write the core mechanics and redlines, and I should’ve stayed away from statements concerning underlining theory of these things. 
 

for aura my goal was to simplify the section down to what it can and cannot be for a voidal mage - primarily, it cannot be hyper minimalistic (I.e eyes glow, hands twitch, etc) or excessively dramatic (I.e a jojo stand). I’ll adjust that later to remove any theorywork 

[Wolfy-D 467]

1 hour ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

I would ask you read the Implementation and Purpose spoiler at the top; issues like these have amendments ready to go should this pass as they’re relatively minor. I will not be making it easier to spam out voidal MAs, as void mages frankly have the easiest teaching track of all magics with no chaos DC. No one else I’ve spoken with has had confusion on exhaustion, though I am listening for such

I personally don't really see the problem with learning a bunch of MAs at once. also you aim to make mastering the magic quicker but as it stands right now you can master your fifth voidal magic in around 4 months of starting to learn magic, but with your rules that time is increased to upwards of 6 months.

 

also this is something i just thought of but if you reach T5 on a magic half way through learning another, would the -1 week be applied or does the -1 week get applied when the MA is accepted.

 

And as for the exhaustion it just seems like a more complicated and more brokenly powerful system that would be difficult to keep track of. The "base" system everyone uses of 2 T5 4 T4 8 T3 16 T2 (which technically isn't an actual system but at this point it should be) is super easy to keep track of with just a random stack of items in your inventory and takes at most about 20 seconds after doing your emote to do while you wait for the other persons reaction emote.

[BakedPotato 1020]

11 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Even if a mage is obscured from sight or silent, there must be some tell within an emote that the target can see that a spell is being prepared. Should a spell specify a shorter RANGE than [LoS] or the mage is unable to see beyond a certain range, that range will always take priority over a [T3+] mage’s range of [LoS].

So suddenly my opponent needs line of sight on my spell while its being charged? Are they helping me channel mana into now?

 

 

[JustMeMorgan 2065]

After reading through some of the comments here are my suggestions (compiling others ideas too- but I’m expressing my own agreement so read theirs too!)

1. Escalate exhaustion by T3 being one, T4 two, and T5 being three.
2. make thaumburn incur instantly after going over 10 levels of exhaustion: I.e. 3 T5 spells and anything more than a T4 is thaumburn. It’ll force mages to reserve big spells. It’ll also mean eminence is still functional as you could sling off many T3 spells (let’s also consider emote count, a T5 spell can take 5 or so emotes per spell so they’d literally have to spend 20 emotes casting to kill themselves instantly)
3. I am currently writing this on the phone but I’d suggest stating (if not already) that exhaustion incurs after spell completion (you may have done this)
4. Change compatibilities to be “anything unless specified in that lore” and you can include the table to be “examples of compatible lore” - this means it doesn’t feel restricted but actually more “hey this is what you can also be and use!”
5. I enjoyed the comment on attunement- perhaps state that mages of old had been able to directly breach by themselves, perhaps unknowingly due to magic being more Freeform, however as the void or veil ages it has become more spefcific and requires some sort of catalyst or bridge
6. I personally feel illusion needs a full rewrite and I’m almost tempted to start doing it- but I do agree, illusions such as loud bangs or chattering in the ear should not be the 4 emote quick cast from 50 blocks away just to ruin my day
7. I do believe you should alter it that “line of sight is not required for the initial spell” as it does mean mages can no longer use cover. But I would perhaps specify that connection should be noticeable and not done prior conflict 

[Aelesh 540]

2 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

 This is entirely valid - my goal was to write the core mechanics and redlines, and I should’ve stayed away from statements concerning underlining theory of these things. 
 

for aura my goal was to simplify the section down to what it can and cannot be for a voidal mage - primarily, it cannot be hyper minimalistic (I.e eyes glow, hands twitch, etc) or excessively dramatic (I.e a jojo stand). I’ll adjust that later to remove any theorywork 

 

You've definitely been successful in trimming it down, it does read well.

 

I've supported a resource system for Void magic for years, so good on you for writing this up.  I can't speak to the balancing of it but everyone else seems to be pitching in on that, so hopefully you get your numbers where they should be.

Edited February 24 by Aelesh

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

3 hours ago, MonteGiant said:

Much of this is severe Eminent Powercreep.

 

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peace and love 💖