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Unwillingly

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    Galahad, Malphas, Lorien
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    High Elf, Zar'akal, Human

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  1. this is just food for thought but it's a question I ask myself often: at what point do we draw the line between realistic and autonomous RP, vs RP that should tell a meaningful story?

    there's many examples that can be used but the more relevant one might pertain to the immediate creation of settlements post-war. it's realistic that groups would be capable of rebuilding themselves should they have the means, yet it severely undermines the narrative importance and threat of war. it's realistic that people should be able to commit major acts of vandalism and destruction on cities should they have the means to do so, yet RO consent clauses are in place in order to ensure tasteful storytelling. it's realistic that people should be able to indefinitely capture an enemy for as long as they want, yet people are permitted to soulstone out after 2 hours in order to respect the victim's time spent on the server.

    the simplest answer is that it's probably nuanced and can be handled on a case by case but just curious what ppl think

    1. Show previous comments  3 more
    2. KeiaTypeBeat

      KeiaTypeBeat

      Rp is rp until someone's OOC safety is at stake. That's my end of the day take. 

       

      Realism into rp is more nuanced for me. On some levels, I can withhold my sense of belief for a great many things. On others, I have trouble doing that simply because of how heavily involved I am irl in certain topics. 

       

      I don't expect anyone to care about what I care about, unless I genuinely feel without a shadow of a doubt something wrong, bad, and harmful in someway, is going on. 

       

      Example for the above take, Warhawkes mentioned:

      Spoiler

      I don't give a shit about Warhawkes larping whatever they want about ndn culture. There are worse problems irl to focus that energy to. Not everyone can be expected to do it properly. It's fine. What I do care about is the fetishization of indigenous people and that there isn't a perpetuation of REAL LIFE acts of offensive, disrespectful appropriation, like warbonnet imagery. It does real, genuine damage to the perception of MY culture. And I think anyone from any culture in a similar context have a right to speak up about those things.


      Nuance for everything else:

      Spoiler

      When is mere discomfort irp relevant to consider:

      Spoiler

      If someone is uncomfortable with roleplay, they should go out of their way to avoid that type of roleplay. If the discomfort is great, a discussion should be attempted so the community can decide whether or not this is a cultural problem that needs to be changed via policy, community action, etc, or if it should remain an individual's responsibility to manage. 

       

      Opinion about problematic rp, tldr, it's my favorite cuz it helps make the stories I care about and helps rewrite my trauma brain: 

      Spoiler

      No one is hurt by open communication and productive discourse. Except people with questionable motives, in my honest opinion. Might be my PTSD talking there, but I think that's a logical take.

       

      I'm fine with roleplaying problematic concepts. This is undoubtedly open knowledge.

      Personally, it's beneficial to countering my PTSD, and my therapist and I talk heavily about how I have been benefitting from being able to interact with things that upset me irl that I can handle easier irp. It's healing. It's also thrilling for me as a writer.

      Generally, I think society as a whole would benefit if they consumed or produced more media that gets them to engage with the problematic. 

       

      That being said, what I care about is those problematic concepts being used as a vehicle for manipulative OOC motives. Like Shade. Shade helped me give voice to this part of myself I later learned was PTSD. Shade helped someone else stalk my friend irl. That OOC misconduct trumps any sort of benefit I got from the magic, and I fully acknowledge it cannot exist like it used to without being taken advantage of. 

       

      "It's just a game" trigger warning, bringing up Shade and how that mindset was the worst to have for that community:

      Spoiler

      It is just a game is the mindset I had with Shade. I do not have the personal commitment others have with roleplay. I do not make plans, I am completely okay with bad things happening to my characters. "It is just a game" stopped me from acknowledging the real issues that were going on all around me. Disregarding the person directly manipulating me. 

       

      Good post, communication is what is important, you spur good talks:

      Spoiler

      Nuance and discussion is what matters. I think if people talked about these things more, we could encourage a culture that is less dependent on needing sweeping acts of policy change and community inflammation if more people talked candidly like this. 

       

      At the very least, it shows those problematic people that there are people on the server watching out and examining their actions, and that is a tangible act of security that does have an effect on communities, online, irp, regardless. That is the heart of public outreach. 

       

      This topic is not unique to LOTC. Something to seriously consider: 

      Spoiler

      There are books written that glamorize problematic topics in a way that risks normalizing predatory behavior, trivializing serious topics, etc. 

      There are books written irl that speak earnestly of problematic topics that give appropriate voice and validity to the issue behind the problematic context, and those books have the power to spread awareness, open minds, provide perspectives without necessitating a real person's victimization. 

       

      When expression risks glamorizing problematic behavior rather than promoting a productive narrative with it:

      Spoiler

      Sometimes people glamorize the problematic on accident. I did that a lot in my effort to give voice to traumas I experienced irl. That wasn't fair for me to do, and my ignorance doesn't excuse it.

       

      I still really like problematic romance that speaks to domestic abuse. But I know now not to project real trauma, and guide it to be respectful, and consensual, and well informed with the people who engage with me in that area. Personally, I think healthy irp relationships are pretty damn boring, and I only really care much about maintaining them while they are fun, or if it's a romance I started with an OOC partner. 

       

      Why these talks are important, even if to most people, they are common sense, should be inherently known, etc:

      Spoiler

      A lot of the outreach stuff I speak about, both on lotc and irl, is stuff I wish someone told me. I have made this my irl passion for a reason.

       

      I did not have good adults in my life to give me the common sense I feel I should have had for my age at the time. This is why I am passionate about open communication.

       

      There are others born of neglect that use roleplay and online communities to cope with that. They're at a big risk of being victimized. They're also likely the most innocently ignorant. Those people deserve to be given information they otherwise have gone without.

       

       

      Very, very good discussion. Wish it was an actual post. Wish I made my post a status like I planned. Gg


      Edit:

       

      Defining "problematic" so I'm not confused, disclaimer on how nuance can be unproductive and hinder roleplay when used too freely, too:

      Spoiler

      "problematic" examples =

      Spoiler

      topics of genocide, toxic romances, excessive violence, irl culture bleed, anything that can be taken a wrong way or misused by bad actors glamorizing sensitive topics or, worse, genuinely causing ooc harm with them. 

       

      Examples of ooc harm we should care about when considering realism over fantasy: undermining disparaged groups, glamorizing abusive behavior and not criticizing it, romantic predation, etc.

       

      Feel like I didn't do a good enough job expressing how my takes relate to the topic. Hope I did a good job making it clear.

       

      Btw the inappropriate application of nuance can be just as detrimental to RP, too. Which is why discussion, again, is suuuuper important: 

      Spoiler

      It's all nuanced, ultimately. But sometimes nuance itself can hinder a narrative. It can get to a point of unreasonability.

       

      Nuance becomes more important the higher the risk there is for enjoyment to be aversly affected, ooc harm to be perpetuated, and accepting what can be practicality accomplished and what is unrealistic to expect. 

    3. PrimnyaQuorum

      PrimnyaQuorum

      I think there’s a bit too much internal dissonance between who we believe “deserves” to have their time and RP respected and who’s actually is for any true nuance to be had. A prime example is capture RP and postwar settlements.

       

      when a player is captured, “we” say that after some time or below some extremely low bar of effort, you gotta let them to go because no one deserves to have their capture indefinitely stuck by someone else…

      yet “we” turn around and say settlements (a gathering of individual players) don’t deserve that sort of protection, and we must instead protect the RP of those effectively /evicting people. No one is going to say that the region system and RG perms aren’t basically the lifeblood of a community and it’s RP, but it seems more like we’re happy to (past a arbitrary # of people) flip the script. Not against any single person just a trend I’ve noticed like so;

       

      - Raids bring raid CDs; raiders have to ask and be given permission to bypass them by the people they raid.

      - capture RP has a time limit; it can only be ignored if the person you’ve captured is ok with it, who can leave at any time

      - A realm/settlement is evicted; players demand those evicted are not allowed to continue their RP until the evicters full sufficiently “rewarded” ? 
       

      I think it’s really a flimsy argument to say the victor need OOC protections against the guy you just beat up to enjoy your victory IRPly because it “undermines” said victory. This would be like saying someone who captures another player deserves to set the time limit because they made the capture, or raiders deserve to set the cooldown because they did the raid; if you are the one perpetrating conflict rp, the server repeatedly defines in the rules those who get got get some protection against it. Can’t see any reason why WCs need the exception.

       

      will clarify there is no intended "you" or "we" im just tired 

    4. LoTC's Next Top Model

      LoTC's Next Top Model

      realistically i think the problem lies more in pathos than logos.

      the only people who will exercise these powers are not the sorts of people who are looking for a cool story, they're trying to kick over your sand castles and make fun of you.

      you can write as many rules as you want, but the only people who will do shit like this are the people who are WAY too excited to actually be doing it.

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