[✗] [Magic Lore] Clericism 2!!!

[Security_ 2287]

Your lore has been cursed by the touch (formatting) of Pallodium. Woe, may the loremods have mercy on ye’ and the mobile user. 

[NightOfTheWind 3226]

April Fools was yesterday

[frvma 1014]

hi uh grandfather me??? i'm tah's biggest fan and glazer??? 

Spoiler

jokes aside, good piece. already said all my critiques and praises to pallo yesterday. looking foward to see how this one does in the running. :)

 

[Panashea 3323]

if u reply to this and it isnt april fools 2 i can give feedback

[sprtn 3340]

can't wait to kill taharie as well

[Panashea 3323]

11 hours ago, ibleesian said:

Physically speaking, the blessing of the Clerics is a divine power infused within an imperfect vessel. Surging with this energy constantly, it is susceptible to Thanhium- being cut by it prevents casting of any aspect of Clericism until the end of the encounter.

Shouldn't there be other weaknesses then, I.e curses of the soul or corruption of the vessel? How do curses or afflictions from other magics affect the ability to cast clericism?  There are a lot of different magics that can harm descendant souls. 

11 hours ago, ibleesian said:

Blightpurge

Something should happen when Blightpurge fails, maybe they can choose from one of the Judgment options?

11 hours ago, ibleesian said:

Judgement

Silence is always better than severance, why would lowering their tier matter when I could just prevent them from casting a lot of their spells all together? I also think there should be ways to cure this or lessen the effect.  Generally if an Aengudaemon is striking someone's soul, other Aengudaemons/influences should also be able to affect it.

12 hours ago, ibleesian said:

They may not be broken prematurely by the Cleric willing them to cease being present or anything else beyond destruction.

Bastions should be weak to alchemy, elemental magics, and other means of destruction/severing, especially if they're being repositioned/used in game as a defensive option. Other magics should be able to target them to weaken a cleric's potential. I think the stun that Palisades already have can serve as a  Since clerics can share Bastions representing all the movement and actions they have might be really hard as soon as more than 1 cleric enters a fight and there's no easy block representation.  I'm really unsure how feasible as a mechanic this would generally be, but other magics have summons. 

 

 

I think there's a lot in this submission that could be toned down or reduced, Leverage is already part of blood magic ensorcellment with way more caveats, and since Clerics are compatible I dont think it's necessary.  I think Lay on Hands, Calming Rains and Healing Wounds could also be combined into a singular spell increased by multiple Clerics. I think the combative spells are better balanced than the other rewrites of this, but the labeling of Impure and some of the lore feats of this go outside the range of Tah's abilities.  You'd have to remake someone's soul in the case of Cursed Children, and with every deific magic and their associated feats I'm unsure why they're all grouped together when they have different requirements and effects on their soul.  I think limiting the scope of this pretty heavily would make more sense, as well as giving the magic more of a distinction then being so versatile at canceling out/inhibiting all other magic users outside of voidal. 

 

Very iffy about disconnecting people given LOTC's reputation and abuses, but this is pretty standard with most deific magics.  Very jealous that aengudaemon magics get more love, but I think with some narrowing of the scope, abilities, and scraping some of the soul lore inconsistencies and you'd have a solid piece. 

[𝑓𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑎𝑙𝑠 814]

15 minutes ago, Panashea said:

Shouldn't there be other weaknesses then, I.e curses of the soul or corruption of the vessel? How do curses or afflictions from other magics affect the ability to cast clericism?  There are a lot of different magics that can harm descendant souls. 

There is a seperate voidal weakness its own subsection of the magic. Other curses (such as naz banes, sowing/cultivating, pale curses, plagues etc) will affect them as those lore pieces state they would
 

15 minutes ago, Panashea said:

Silence is always better than severance, why would lowering their tier matter when I could just prevent them from casting a lot of their spells all together? I also think there should be ways to cure this or lessen the effect.  Generally if an Aengudaemon is striking someone's soul, other Aengudaemons/influences should also be able to affect it.

The only magic that requires a verbal component are heralds of azdromoth shouts as far as I'm aware. I have no idea what you mean by that last sentence. But I don't think we considered this in the balancing, will talk about it with pallo.

 

15 minutes ago, Panashea said:

Bastions should be weak to alchemy, elemental magics, and other means of destruction/severing, especially if they're being repositioned/used in game as a defensive option. Other magics should be able to target them to weaken a cleric's potential.

You already can do this. Any magic with a concussive force is considered a blunt strike. This would also apply to like blasting potions, for example.

 

  

15 minutes ago, Panashea said:

You'd have to remake someone's soul in the case of Cursed Children,

LT specifically requested we make CC purgeable, it wouldn't be remaking their soul it would just be stripping the curse from it. As a CC player myself I personally think this is fine.

 

  

16 minutes ago, Panashea said:

I think limiting the scope of this pretty heavily would make more sense, as well as giving the magic more of a distinction then being so versatile at canceling out/inhibiting all other magic users outside of voidal. 

I disagree, I think implementing the changes you suggest of removing / condensing would make this magic not worth the three slots, and it would need to be paired down to a two slot or feat magic. I don't think a healing magic should be a magic-stack magic. It should be it's own thing that someone devotes themselves to fully. I'm also not quite sure what you mean by 'canceling out' since there's not a single piece of anti-magicesque ability in the kit aside from the "execution" mechanic, I guess.

 

  

18 minutes ago, Panashea said:

Very iffy about disconnecting people given LOTC's reputation and abuses, but this is pretty standard with most deific magics.

This is the standard for every single post-loregames magic except for seer, which the st-reliant disconnection actually usually has more problems and more drama associated with it than chaos-dc magics.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

59 minutes ago, ibleesian said:

The only magic that requires a verbal component are heralds of azdromoth shouts as far as I'm aware. I have no idea what you mean by that last sentence. But I don't think we considered this in the balancing, will talk about it with pallo.

Naztherak requires verbal incantation - it would also work on any Naz/Inferi except for Boones/Banes, Cursing, and any rites that don't involve a spoken portion 

[Panashea 3323]

57 minutes ago, ibleesian said:

The only magic that requires a verbal component are heralds of azdromoth shouts as far as I'm aware. I have no idea what you mean by that last sentence. But I don't think we considered this in the balancing, will talk about it with pallo.

Shamanism, Naztherak, heralds, mystic wailing, I think some voidal enchantments also have auditory requirements as well.  The last part I'm referring to is that Tah isn't the only entity capable of affecting souls,  other Aengudaemonic/similarly powered beings should also be able to undo/affect Tah's influence over things- the writing makes it sound absolute. 

 

1 hour ago, ibleesian said:

You already can do this. Any magic with a concussive force is considered a blunt strike. This would also apply to like blasting potions, for example.

 

You have a redline that states:
 

They may not be broken prematurely by the Cleric willing them to cease being present or anything else beyond destruction. This makes it sound like they can't be destroyed by other magics or other magics don't have a significant influence over them. If Bastions are filled with divine magic or capable of emitting divine energy, then they would be susceptible to more magics then just voidal or blunt strikes for them being destroyed.  Things like Eidola have weakness to dragonsflame for similar reason, Azdrazi have their corruption units, and Templar are weak to curses and so on. 

 

1 hour ago, ibleesian said:

I disagree, I think implementing the changes you suggest of removing / condensing would make this magic not worth the three slots, and it would need to be paired down to a two slot or feat magic.

The magic wouldn't change if those abilities were condensed, it'd mostly just save forum space and confusion.  Lay On Hands, Calming Rains, and Battlemend are all healing (mental and physical) abilities. Much like Blood Magic's Seal, it could just be written as one ability with different effects depending on Tier and people involved.

 

Leverage doesn't really have anything to do with Purity or Justice which is why I kinda see it as unnecessary.

 

1 hour ago, ibleesian said:

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by 'canceling out' since there's not a single piece of anti-magicesque ability in the kit aside from the "execution" mechanic, I guess.

Templars, Shamans, Druids, Heralds, Palmreaders, and so on are all labeled under the same term but none of them have the same requirements or affects on their soul, so it doesn't make sense that it affects so many different magic users so broadly- thats why I would describe it as anti-magic.  If it's just about being blessed, does me blessing someone as a Farseer mean they count as deific? Lutauman or Haruspex don't even have traditional soul-pacts, nor would an Aengul be able to see them for the other subtypes. If a shaman counted as "Impure", or Herald, or other blessings/curses from magic  then wouldn't their blessings or curses also mark targets since it affects their soul the same way a shaman's pact does? 

[𝑓𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑎𝑙𝑠 814]

32 minutes ago, Panashea said:

They may not be broken prematurely by the Cleric willing them to cease being present or anything else beyond destruction. This makes it sound like they can't be destroyed by other magics or other magics don't have a significant influence over them. If Bastions are filled with divine magic or capable of emitting divine energy, then they would be susceptible to more magics then just voidal or blunt strikes for them being destroyed.  Things like Eidola have weakness to dragonsflame for similar reason, Azdrazi have their corruption units, and Templar are weak to curses and so on. 

This just means a cleric can't drop a Bastion early / at will and that they have to be destroyed. They are affected by all external sources that have the ability to physically interact with them.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Panashea said:

Templars, Shamans, Druids, Heralds, Palmreaders, and so on are all labeled under the same term but none of them have the same requirements or affects on their soul, so it doesn't make sense that it affects so many different magic users so broadly

These are all deific magics, it's post-loregames standard that deific magics (with the exception of seer) are not compatible with other deific magics. additionally tahariae is generally against other deities meddling with the mortal realm, thus why they are grouped together. i highly recommend reading his lore post as that will likely clear up a lot of your confusion.

 

  

32 minutes ago, Panashea said:

If a shaman counted as "Impure", or Herald, or other blessings/curses from magic  then wouldn't their blessings or curses also mark targets since it affects their soul the same way a shaman's pact does?

Getting a blessing from a shaman doesn't make them a shaman, just like getting a boon from a naz doesn't make you a warlock. It's not the same thing.

[Panashea 3323]

3 minutes ago, ibleesian said:

thus why they are grouped together.

The  issue is the soul mechanics of the different magics. Even if they are labeled as Deity on the forums, Tahariae wouldn't have the ability to affect all of them uniformly.  I understand if all of these deity magics followed similar ideas on how they affected the soul, but they don't.

 

Farseers, Witchdoctor, and Lutauman, and Haruspex don't have a soul connection for Tahariae to deem impure so that kind of shaman wouldn't work. Tahariae would have no idea what Spirits a shaman uses, or even if their soul is pacted to one.  If Tahariae can base these labels on seeing soul-connections to deities (I.E able to identify a shaman with a soul pact), and label it the same they would a Corcuituira, a soul curse- then I would be able to curse anyone with shamanism and make them impure as well, since its the same form of soul corruption. This would be true of any soul curse/blessing, and not just shamanism's effects.

[Reckless Banzai Screamer 15456]

you come to the lotc forums on the day of my brevver’s birthday and you MOCK him ❌ !!!  🔫

[𝑓𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑎𝑙𝑠 814]

29 minutes ago, Reckless Banzai Screamer said:

you come to the lotc forums on the day of my brevver’s birthday and you MOCK him  !!!  

Happy Birthday :D

[Reckless Banzai Screamer 15456]

6 minutes ago, ibleesian said:

Happy Birthday :D

 

thank you :3

[Pallodium 3775]

1 hour ago, Panashea said:

The  issue is the soul mechanics of the different magics. Even if they are labeled as Deity on the forums, Tahariae wouldn't have the ability to affect all of them uniformly.  I understand if all of these deity magics followed similar ideas on how they affected the soul, but they don't.

 

Farseers, Witchdoctor, and Lutauman, and Haruspex don't have a soul connection for Tahariae to deem impure so that kind of shaman wouldn't work. Tahariae would have no idea what Spirits a shaman uses, or even if their soul is pacted to one.  If Tahariae can base these labels on seeing soul-connections to deities (I.E able to identify a shaman with a soul pact), and label it the same they would a Corcuituira, a soul curse- then I would be able to curse anyone with shamanism and make them impure as well, since its the same form of soul corruption. This would be true of any soul curse/blessing, and not just shamanism's effects.

 

o/

 

lmk if you want to discuss more over this on discord, I'm not too well-versed with the specifics of shamanism and its hyperspecifications in terms of mechanics, but when I was writing the section of what was classifed as 'impure' or not, it was based primarily upon what Tahariae would classify as such and/or could physically tell so- but from my awareness, shamanism's pact is drastically different than being under the effects of a shamanic spell.

 

1 hour ago, Panashea said:

If Bastions are filled with divine magic or capable of emitting divine energy, then they would be susceptible to more magics then just voidal or blunt strikes for them being destroyed.  Things like Eidola have weakness to dragonsflame for similar reason, Azdrazi have their corruption units, and Templar are weak to curses and so on. 

 

in terms of this, all attacks/spells/potions/whatever would fall under two categories- either its stated to be blunt/concussive or its not (in the latter case, would strike it like a normal attack). This permits it to be countered still, at ranged but not be shredded obscenely by "counters" which there aren't really any which make sense to do that sort of effect beyond thanhium (which the redlines already account for)

 

1 hour ago, Panashea said:

The magic wouldn't change if those abilities were condensed, it'd mostly just save forum space and confusion.  Lay On Hands, Calming Rains, and Battlemend are all healing (mental and physical) abilities. Much like Blood Magic's Seal, it could just be written as one ability with different effects depending on Tier and people involved.

 

Leverage doesn't really have anything to do with Purity or Justice which is why I kinda see it as unnecessary.

 

the splitting of the different calming/healing spells was to make it not only legible to read rather than having one colossal wordbloat of a spell, but to also further distinguish levels of healing/calming, including mid-battle heal/suppression. In terms of Leverage, it exists as a similar combative 'specialist' spell in similarity to the other Bastion hymns; it was written to encourage other types of Crowd Control/support gameplay that would blend offense and defense whilst still not being overtly powerful. In my opinion, it fits 'justice' well- its Tahariae creating a more level playing field for the non-impure beings to go against the Pure ones, which typically are stronger in terms of magic and abilities.

 

1 hour ago, Panashea said:

Shamanism, Naztherak, heralds, mystic wailing, I think some voidal enchantments also have auditory requirements as well.  The last part I'm referring to is that Tah isn't the only entity capable of affecting souls,  other Aengudaemonic/similarly powered beings should also be able to undo/affect Tah's influence over things- the writing makes it sound absolute. 

 

a very good point, i'll edit that debuff to clarify that 'words of power' or similar things exalted to incant spells or enchantments isn't hindered by Judgement's silence.

 

 

 

ty for spending the time to read through it and give feedback, if you want to reach out to me on discord my tag is @pallodium