The First Holy Crusade

[Zebanamana 410]

((Until we have fleshed out our religion more, I do not see how we can justify this as religious. We need to complete our beliefs and send out missionaries before we even think about this.))

[KoTo 610]

((Only thing is that the Crusades in real life were, at first, a response to agressive activity. When the militant Ottoman Turks came to power, they started messing the Byzantines up, and the Byzantines called upon Western Europe for assistance in the battle, whereupon the Pope called for a "Crusade." The first Crusade actually took place before even the Great Schism, so the connections between Europe and the Byzantines were relatively close. Europe would not ignore threats to the Byzantine Empire either, because they were essentially a buffer between most of Europe and the Islamic world. Even though this has almost no bearing on a fictional world, it still has a bit of application. The extremely expensive Crusades were a huge economic drain on Europe. These campaigns would not have been undertaken if there was not sufficient reasoning. The religion could not have accounted for the reasoning, because holding the "Holy Lands" had no precedent in the Bible. Thus, unless it is different in Oren, and I believe that the Orenian religion is actually much more lax than Medieval Catholicism was, there must be adequate reasoning to attack each of these nations seperately.))

[Wrong.The Great Schism was before the First Crusade.The dates were 1054 and 1096 respectively.The Byzantine Emperor Alexius I informed Pope Urban II about the growing Seljuk threat.Then the Pope called a Crusade to capture Jerusalem from the Muslims.]

[Myoni 56]

(( I don't think that is entirely correct there, the First Crusade had one intention capture Jerusalem I am unfamiliar with the Second Crusade but I know the Third Crusade was meant to be one to recapture Jerusalem and restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Though I do not know anything else of the Crusades against the Islamic nations but I know some information on the Northern Crusades against the pagan Kingdoms ))

((If you want to know more about the Second Crusade, you can gleam a general synopsis from the movie Kingdom of Heaven. As for the First Crusade, it was to answer the leader of Jerusalem expelling Christians from the city, that was the reason the Pope called for the Crusade. The Third Crusade was to reclaim, the now village sized, city in the name of Christ.

Right now, there's no reason to even attack Holm, as they're accepting missionaries and citizens of Oren. Menocross has does -absolutely- nothing and Oren has done nothing with them. If the Mori executed or imprisoned missionaries from the Church, then yes, there'd be a reason. Hael'u'nor could be reasonable if they actually took action against the Church rather than everyone in general. You do have a reason to attack Enismor because they're openly hostile to Oren. As for Armaluna, it might as well not even exist anymore.

Your Zealots could of course -incite- an action from these parties, but even then it constitutes nothing but raids, which are already abused to the point of angering -alot- of people.))

[Aerinyes 402]

((Until we have fleshed out our religion more, I do not see how we can justify this as religious. We need to complete our beliefs and send out missionaries before we even think about this.))

((While the idea of a holy war is cool and all, as the crusades were an interesting time in RL history. We have to stick to the rules at hand. You bring up an interesting point. This war may not be validated.

Casus belli

Casus belli is an expression meaning the justification for acts of war. Casus means "incident", "rupture" or indeed "case", while belli means bellic ("of war"). It is usually distinguished from casus foederis, where casus belli refers to offenses or threats directly against a nation, and casus foederis to refer to offenses or threats to another, allied, nation with which the justifying nation is engaged in a mutual defense treaty. Informal usage varies beyond its technical definition to refer to any "just cause" a nation may claim for entering into a conflict. Formally, a government would lay out its reasons for going to war, as well as its intentions in prosecuting it and the steps that might be taken to avert it. In so doing, the government would attempt to demonstrate that it was going to war only as a last resort (ultima Ratio) and that it in fact possessed "just cause" for doing so. The stated reasons may or may not be the actual reason for waging the war.

Some of the nations listed may or may not convert to the beliefs of the church and hence would not need to be cleansed in the eyes of the church. It makes since that a church such as Oren's would wish to subjugate more members and convert non-believers rather then simply eradicate them first hand without making an attempt.

Has there been any missionaries sent to the nations listed above?

I'm not for or against this campaign OOCly. Again I think it is a great RP idea if its done properly. But we have rules in place for a reason and I'd like to see them followed. Lets all play by the rules so we're A. On the same playing field. B. We're having fun while doing so.

If you go through with just warclaim after warclaim, you're just doing it to PVP lands. And thats not right. Do like the Christians did when they went out on their large conversion process. They didn't just crusade everyone to their cause. They set up churches in other lands, preached the faith, and even changed some of the stories that the locals had to be more Christian oriented.

That would make this a whole lot more interesting. Send your priests out first and see what happens.))

[The Best Basileus 97]

((The point of my post was not to defend the Crusaders, it was to say that there had to be sufficient rp justification for a Crusades-type rp thing. Also, the Europeans did not fully understand or comprehend that Islam was not one giant nation. They thought that any attack on the Islamic-held lands would affect the entirety of their empire. I also left out the fact that Catholic "pilgrims" were being harassed in Jerusalem and the rest of the "Holy Lands." The problem with the Ottoman Turks was that they did not approve of allowing pilgrims at all, thus official attacks upon the pilgrims, mostly of Turkish origin, were commonplace. I appologize for my incorrect dates regarding the Great Schism, I will have to look into that further, but at this time the bonds between the two denominations of Catholicism were still relatively strong. I was not saying that the purpose was PURELY military, because clearly it was also religious, but I was trying to say that much of the reason for the Crusades was because of the military threat to the Byzantine Empire.

Regarding other bits of history, practically the entire Meditteranean had been predominately Christian before militant Arabs decided to spread Islam through violence. While they conquered everything in their path until they reached the Byzantine Empire northwards, they were also expanding westward, and eventually came to Spain, which they subjected, and then invaded France, where they were smashed by Charles "The Hammer" Martel. Tension with Islam had been building in the Mediterannean region had been building for half a millenium. When the Byzantines called for aid, there was just enough "excuse" for Europe to attack.))

[Hiebe 2493]

This is Lord of the Craft not Real Life. Let them crusade if they wish

[The Best Basileus 97]

((But if the religion of Oren is not fully developed, there is practically no reason for a crusade. I just think that up until this point the church has seemed extremely lenient and not very interested in converting people. If this religion is more agressive, then it DOES have significant rp justification to attack anybody and everybody who does not openly proffess to be part of the church, but up until now, I have not seen any evidence of agressiveness. It would also make sense if Godfrey had told the High Pontiff to do this, because after conquering all of humanity, it seems reasonable that he would want to move on to assimilate the elves, or dwarves, or orcs, and would at some point. I was only trying to help you guys think of a good rp justification for this, because if you want to do these warclaims soon, the gm's will have to think there is significant justification if they are to go through.))

[Jay Lenos 384]

((Aerines post says it all, we are going to each nation asking to convert if not there will be conflict))

[Myoni 56]

(( Pulling a No-one's-home-so-they're-saying-no is not a suitable roleplay attempt, just a heads up.))

[Aerinyes 402]

((Aerines post says it all, we are going to each nation asking to convert if not there will be conflict))

((I do hope there is alot and I mean alot of attempts on the church's part to convert them peacefully. Going up to a city and saying convert or die, then warclaiming them isn't the way to do it. I'm not saying that is your intent but care has to be taken to make sure this campaign is done right.

This crusade has the potential to be a big and great thing if pulled off right. I hope the care is taken to make sure it is enjoyable for all those involved and not just a means to throw military weight around.))

[VIROS 2915]

((I like the idea of a crusade, but not in the form it is taking in this thread. I'd prefer to flesh out our religion more, send out some missionaries, and get some rejections before we start going to war with other nations. Not to say that I don't want us to go to war with other nations. I love conquering. Love it. However, we need to make sure there is ample RP leading up to it, at the very least. Btw, if you need help fleshing out the religion, that's something I can happily help with. I'm a fairly good writer, especially when it comes to the complex theological concepts of pseudo-Catholic religions like ours.))

[Hobolympic 1093]

(( Well, I have a propotion. How about changing it to a "pillage" crusade instead, to "teach" the 'heathens' a lesson? Then people won't rage because they lose their towns etc, etc etc. Like Oren doesn't have enough space already... ))

[VIROS 2915]

((I'm not a fan of pillaging in the first place. If Oren is making any warclaims, they need to be for conquering. The thought of a unified and prosperous human nation attacking smaller nations for money is absolutely silly to me. Any attacks we make need to be based on the idea of "spreading our greatness" or something like that. If we're just going to march in and seize some possessions, it is utterly pointless and fairly bad RP-wise.))

[Hobolympic 1093]

(( I was referring to pillaging, yes. But the main idea about it was to propose a simple attack, rather than a conquest. Not for materialistic values, but just to show them that their beliefs are 'wrong' ))

[Glasiconas 111]

I would just like to know why you put an X on Pas'Loe.