Archery Discussion

[winterblood 11181]

Hello.

 

This is a post I've been wanting to make for a while, some minor discussion with friends a few days ago got me thinking about this again - and the recent techlock post has encouraged me to get something rolling on the forums.  Archery sucks on the server, simple as.  It's not the emote count that I dislike, I think that is totally balanced and in-line with other established emote counts for other CRP things across the server.  Making it into two emotes to shoot a bow is just encouraging an RP version of bow-spamming from PvP.

 

I've got a character that I've been pursuing archery on, it's her main thing when it comes to combat and I've actively been RPing her training her aim through a duration of eight RP years.  I even RP her skills in melee combat as being not-so-great due to her time dedicated to archery.  But whenever she is to enter combat, all of the RP behind her choosing to be an archer and mastering her skills in it is all reduced to a mere RNG roll out of 20.  I'm not saying my character should be Legolas, nor should the concept of rolls be removed from the server--even with all of her training, my character's aim will never be 100% accurate 100% of the time.  With the dynamic narrative on this server based on character interactions, some things are better left to the RNG Gods.  But maybe I could be wrong about that.

 

It's just got to be better than dedicating three emotes to shooting a bow, after spending at least eight weeks of RP associated with training and only getting....

 

UnBaed has rolled a 7 out of 20

UnBaed has rolled a 11 out of 20

UnBaed has rolled a 3 out of 20

 

All while John Smith is efficiently slicing through enemies with his trusty melee weapon in every emote.

 

The purpose of this thread isn't just to complain about the system, I've really been wanting to come up with a better way to making archery more interesting on the server.  Something that can have genuine impact for a character's identity, and not just be a little background niche because no one wants to suffer through RNG dictating their usefulness in every combat scenario.  I would suggest a modified rolling system, but how could it be effectively measured and utilized across the server?  Would Staff approve of a system that better documents a character's strengths and weaknesses?  Or would it only clutter the forums and make it difficult for ST to track MA/FA/TA's?  More rules and restrictions doesn't always mean better RP quality, either.  Even if a system of modified rolls and skills were implemented onto the server--there would certainly be players seeking to abuse it to get the best stats possible for their character.  It works for DnD, but only because DnD groups are small and controlled--with the players involved having a set understanding and rules on what's expected of their behavior.  On a sever with 150-200 players online during peak hours, that is not as easy to manage.  Unfortunately, we do not RP on an ideal server with everyone pursing CRP with good-faith and sole interest in a narrative.

 

What would you suggest for a system?

 

The only viable thing I could come up with is doing advantage rolls (where you roll twice and choose higher number, but even that isn't a great improvement), selecting an average of x amount of rolls, or having a modifier based on adding more to your emote count to better your aim.  But it is difficult to measure skill since I see players all around me claiming to be good with a bow out of no where.  It's hard to put weight into something when it's system is just so obsolete across the server.  Archery is supposed to take years to be good at, it's why crossbows were a big thing upon being invented since they bypassed a lot of the training required to be good with a bow.

 

 

 

[Onnensr 1908]

I don't like to be pessimistic, but does it feel to anyone else the entire CRP system is paralyzed? One part can't move without totally unbalancing some other piece. All the gears are slowing and sticking, and it feels like we're hitting the ceiling of how things can shift around. Magic, swords, and ranged are all in a very wacky imbalance, and until someone with bright ideas comes around it's staying that way. My solution has always been we convert to a more DnD style system that can reflect actual growth and experience in a character, but that also can't happen. 

I agree, archery is completely unviable as it is, I'd like to see it changed. I also have no idea how to do that without breaking magic.

[AndrewTech 3329]

I think what I'd like to see for skills in general would be like, a very simple modifier system. Maybe like a set number of points you can allocate to a character card with the traditional 6 attribute stats from DnD, which you a +1, +2, etc when rolling various skills. That'd go a long way toward actually reflecting character ability in luck rolls and would be very simple to code. 

 

Theoretically, you could even have a list of skills that you can roll to automatically calculate what you get (d20 + modifier) for events or during CRP. This could be done via the creation of a "/roll archery" command that reads info from your persona card in using the rolling plugin, for instance. It could then roll a d20 and add your dexterity modifier to it. Would keep things streamlined and clean for both ETs and normal RPers.

 

This could also be applied to non-combat related skills such as lockingpick, stealth, investigation, etc, and would go a long way toward giving people an additional roleplaying tool to differentiate their character from others. It'd also make some personas better suited to certain professions or skills than others, adding a hint of realism to the process.

[winterblood 11181]

5 minutes ago, AndrewTech said:

snip

 

I like the idea of everyone having a set 6 to add onto a small list of skills.  If something was implemented onto the server where we can view stats on character cards, I'd love it.  Maybe characters under 16 have just 3 points to use, and when they reach 16 (when they can interact with lore) it turns to 6

 

honor systems can still be used in crp, i always prefer that - but this could help with archery and other projectiles.  Or just simply help settle disagreements on the outcome of something in rp

[H 820]

Bows probably need a change, but I don't think rolling/DnDifying the server is the solution. Even with a stat modifier, I feel like rolling every emote would get clunky (and stats like stealth or investigation would realistically very rarely be used outside of ST events, if at all). IMO projectile effectiveness vs plate armor should be buffed, and within a certain range (or maybe a certain minimum/maximum range band) arrows should just hit or have some sort of effect reliably. 

Not sure about a specific system for tracking/recognizing skill in archery. The same arguments apply to swordfighting, other forms of martial combat, or really any skill in general. It might feel frustrating to do sparring/target practice/other training RP without your character becoming any more mechanically effective than someone whose character has done all that offscreen, but the RP itself is the reward. 

[Coronate 5519]

Create a training system similar to magic for modifiers for rolls.

 

 

 

 

:)

[sam33497 7356]

real talk theres no reason to roll for arrows in player v player crp, they should always land in close range and require your action to dodge further away, this is basically in the rules already (you are under no circumstances obligated to roll)

[winterblood 11181]

1 hour ago, sam33497 said:

real talk theres no reason to roll for arrows in player v player crp, they should always land in close range and require your action to dodge further away, this is basically in the rules already (you are under no circumstances obligated to roll)

 

Chat is this real

[Java17 2216]

2 hours ago, Onnensr said:

I don't like to be pessimistic, but does it feel to anyone else the entire CRP system is paralyzed? One part can't move without totally unbalancing some other piece.

-snip-

 My solution has always been we convert to a more DnD style system that can reflect actual growth and experience in a character, but that also can't happen. 

This is a common problem in game design, as you keep introducing more complex ways to interact with the systems, you end up needing to consider more things with each addition. This is normal.

 

DnD system wouldn't be impossible it would just require a rather intensive effort from both tech and story teams to make sure it fits the current LotC lore and would run into the same complexity issues eventually (immediately, even).

[BakedPotato 1019]

1 hour ago, UnBaed said:

Chat is this real

if u roll for ur arrows and they dont roll to dodge or for their attacks you've been professionally gaslit 

[Frostdrop1 1843]

4 hours ago, sam33497 said:

real talk theres no reason to roll for arrows in player v player crp, they should always land in close range and require your action to dodge further away, this is basically in the rules already (you are under no circumstances obligated to roll)

While this might be true, it's not promoted by the server. I think in the time I've been on the server, maybe getting towards year two, I've had one combat encounter where bows were treated as honour.

 

I've not attended a single ST event were ranged was in any way honour, yet those events have the greatest impact on the perception of how we should crp. 

 

My problem with archery or any ranged, then, is that ST do not treat it as a valuable skill in encounters and reduce ranged characters to rolls in their events while permitting melee ones to honour throughout even though each bow shot is expensive in emote count compared to the average swing - and frankly every melee character manages to be proficient in melee without questions asked. I personally don't mind if we have an extra modifier system for bow mastery, but I would generally prefer for bows to be treated as honour, and potions too where it would be reasonable to do so. I think when someone picked up a random object not intended for throwing - that is fair to put to rng. 

 

The attitude towards bowing needs to change. I really, really like the idea of a ranger character but the way it's treated it just an active deterrent because no matter how much I invest my character into mastering the bow, will always be equally good as level 1 Joe who's never shot a bow before.

 

I think if all characters are rolling in the event then sure, that's fair. But if ranged alone is being singled out to have a 50/50 or worse chance to flub entirely, or the strikes end up meaning little because arrows are treated like pebbles even if they do hit, then that fundamentally needs to change.

 

Tl;Dr I think ranged should be treated as honour especially by ST to promote acceptance of bows as honour-worthy.

 

 

[Departed_Delmar 1302]

Its early in the morning, and I'm drinking my coffee, and I'm a nerd who likes to think. So lets talk some key-archery points and perhaps a suggestion to work

 

Aiming

Under split second decision making, finding the right aim in the right conditions is probably one of the most important things to consider for archery. Not every terrain is going to lead to the perfect conditions for archery. A windy mountain will never have the advantage of open plains. 

 

Stance

Bows are hard to use man! Like, if you actually use one, not only does it require you to target all the muscles in your core, shoulders, and arms. But you also need to have a good stance for that man. 

 

Wind

That fancy little thing that cools people down, actually effects both real world sniping + heavily effected crossbows and bows back in the day. It can just as easily aid a shot, as it can hinder a shot

 

Possible Solutions to this? 

Solution 1; you have areas on the map that maybe provide bonuses or negatives to archery, plains provide an easier archery experience, while areas clouded by storms such as blizzards provide a more difficult experience. This would allow for Archers to have to take note of the region their in, perhaps even encourage individuals to prep hunts or assassinations by dragging people to regions, because the climate proves better suited for archery. Likewise, future settlement regions might choose to build in either a place that compliments their fighting style, or hinders ranged attacks on their city

 

Solution 2; Emote = Effort. A character could spend an emote, and shoot an arrow hastily, perhaps at the cost of it being random luck. Or a character could spend three emotes, and guarantee that the area they hit(should they hit) be something akin to a moderate injury. 

 

Keep in mind what I suggested is the bare minimum of my thinking, so if its a sh*t take, its a sh*t take. But who knows, maybe one could utilize some of the ideas presented for a better constructed rolling/archery system. 

[winterblood 11181]

7 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

 

Tl;Dr I think ranged should be treated as honour especially by ST to promote acceptance of bows as honour-worthy.

 

 

 

This for sure.  I never realized Sam's suggestion because bows have NEVER been treated with honor for me before in various events.  Even for a friend in the dragon eventline who has an archer character, out of all of his shots in the whole story - only 1 arrow has landed due to the rolling system being enforced.

[HurferDurfer1 2978]

i despise *shoots person in the head* rp, which is what ive often seen with people using archery in combat, people ought to be abit more compelling in there rp instead of trying to pop off legolas style shots and end combat as soon as possible

[winterblood 11181]

20 minutes ago, HurferDurfer1 said:

i despise *shoots person in the head* rp, which is what ive often seen with people using archery in combat, people ought to be abit more compelling in there rp instead of trying to pop off legolas style shots and end combat as soon as possible

 

how about i shoot your mother a lovely message

 

but yeah this too, same issue can be applied with other issues found in crp where people don't rp fear, or write their characters to have an unnaturally extreme amount of pain tolerance, ect.  any sort of crp that immediately starts with *goes for the kill* with the expectation for it to end cleanly there is selfishly driven