Void View - What do you think?

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

 

Void View

What do You think?

(Thank you Etan for the post name)

 

Hello,

 

Voidal magic is the largest collective of lore on the server by currently accepted lore pages, at an impressive 57 pages - ranging from creatures, to magics, to supplementing items and metals, and the feats. It’s considered the most well-spread magic on the server, with several nations and various cults and evil-doer groups based upon, run by, or supplemented by factions of Voidal Mages and varying others taking differing stances against them. It offers a blank template, with a few clear-cut drawbacks (Voidal Poisoning), to make your character into whatever you want them to be, and carries a variety of tools for both CRP and Non-CRP conflict. 

 

And it’s old.

 

Save for a handful of pages, the majority of currently accepted Voidal Lore was accepted from 2016-2020, and shows its age. Large portions of voidal lore stand in contrast to one another, many pages aren’t even used, and some are outright labeled as incorrect by ST - yet they remain up as accepted pages anyway. For the breadth of lore the Voidal Label offers, only a tiny fraction - The MAs, FAs, and some creatable structures and items - are dealt with in any regularity by players and ST. The rest are unused because they are either too outdated, too complicated, or just too incompatible with the frequently-utilized Voidal Lore. Atop that, Voidal Mages are notorious for how they utilize what little lore they interact with - either they refuse to stray away from their areas of activity, grossly Powergame, or just don’t bother to deal with the lore and consequences of what they have, instead wholly concerned with having the “Strongest” (Most CRP-proficient) mage they can. Exceptions exist, of course, and I’m happy to see most mages working IRPly and OOCly towards new things in Voidal Magic - but this reputation did not simply appear on its own.

 

While I am relativity new to LoTC compared to those who have been playing for years, and am vastly unfamiliar with the state of Prior Voidal Magic (I have only heard whispers of the horror stories of Arcanism, Mental Magic, Lighting Evocation, and the prior state of Voidal Magic), I would like to think I’ve got something of a understanding after my first character for over a year was a Voidal Mage, and I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time Cataloging what accepted Voidal Lore there is - a project that is very much still a Work in Progress - a process that changed how I consider things among conversations with long-term Voidal Players. 

 

That said - it is not only Voidal Mages who must deal with Voidal Magic & Voidal Lore. Just about every MA or CA has a redline or interaction with a subset, or all of Voidal Magic, and rarely will one go about their day without running into a Voidal Mage or some part of Voidal Magic IRPly. I don’t believe that anything good will come of a view of Voidal Lore influenced only by Voidal Players.

 

So - I’d like to hear what people think of Voidal Magic, mages and non-voidal mages alike. What parts do you enjoy, what parts do you hate? What would you change if you could, and why? Does something in particular draw you into Voidal Lore, or actively make you stay as far away from it as you can? What would you add, or what would you remove entirely? For the sake of a decent conversation, please avoid “I just don’t like it” - take the time to consider why you think as you do, and if you’re simply echoing a mentality of someone else that you heard or have developed your own opinions. Typically, everyone with an opinion can name why they believe as they do. 

 

I do think like other magical communities, Voidal Magic Players can take the time to come together and clean up the glaring faults in the magic - most will disagree on many things, but I believe there are plenty of things that can be addressed with a general consensus. 

 

[winterblood 11181]

cool concepts but just about every void mage focuses on magic stacking and minmaxing, i sigh more and more with every magnum opus mart that is just a giant "i kill you and win" spell

 

tl:dr too many ooc brained motivations for taking up the magics

[Cat Evocation 3728]

I think where Void Magic is at now is fine but it's the overall attitude of most mages that has drastically changed and I do not think much will fix that outside of pulling a rug and nobody really wants that.

 

Only thing I could see would be minor changes to dissuade the CRP attitude like amendments to make purely combative lore for voidal magic to take up multiple slots, or something.

 

Right now, it's like every mage feels like we should fill all 5 slots else we're behind or something stupid even though it should be fully about using the lore to theme your character and bring a magical whimsical flavor to roleplay.

[_Elrith_ 4525]

The Void could have been a better-written roleplay concept and mechanic. Still, it suffers from LMs wanting to create something within the 'boundaries' of what was accepted instead of trying to refurbish and establish something new. 

The Void is a boundless realm of chaos and entropy, ruled by nothing. There is no god, king, or lord of the Void; it is a realm of complete and utter nothingness. The existence of reality gives the Void tangibility. At the boundaries of 'reality,' the Void is given an 'orderly' nature and may come into 'existing' in a way it previously couldn't. The Void is not something to be understood because it can't be understood. There isn't a way for any mortal mind to wrap itself around what nothingness is. From this chaotic entropy, creatures not bound by the laws of our universe came into being seeking to do whatever they could, be it destroy, create, or understand this new universe that previously did not exist for them. Thus, horrors, terrors, and behemoths spawned from chaos and sought reality. The Void is themed by being an incomprehensible dimension beyond the understanding of mortality, beyond life and death, beyond what people define as 'godly,' it is a concept that allows players to explore the more esoteric and eldritch side of roleplay. Chthulu, Azathoth, Nylarthotep, the works of Lovecraft, Chambers, King, Poe. 

However, in player Roleplay, the Void does not go past the machinations of ST involvement. It's not about a mage drawing power from literal oblivion, but rather, Void magic is a canvas for mages to freely explore any theme they desire. This freedom of exploration is a powerful tool in the hands of the players, allowing them to shape their own narratives. That is not a bad thing, but the lore of the Void does not indulge such at all. LMs will tell you 'grimdark' and moral 'nuance,' but that doesn't actually create any moral nuance at all if it isn't applied in roleplay, and it isn't easily applied in roleplay when you can't see how being a void mage is literal evil. Instead most Void mages you come across are some form of wizard archetype that indulges cute spellcasting and Hogwarts roleplay, again that isn't bad. However, it would be entirely more fitting for a separate category of magic to be made for groups of players who want to explore freeform magic roleplay and not need to confine themselves to a theme. The Void has a theme, and its magics do not confine a player to its theme, which means the themeless magics that the players use come from a source of super evil that doesn't actually get roleplayed. It is probably one of the dumbest things on LotC and is entirely the failings of lore ST.

Dragon Age, a great franchise btw, has more moral nuance to its magic than the Void ever will, and the magic of Dragon Age isn't nearly as giga evil as the Void. 

tl;dr, make mana sorcerery magic for themeless spellcasters to create their own theme and narrative using mana and then turn the void into actual eldritch magic roleplay.

[Karina 1882]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Etan said:

I think where Void Magic is at now is fine but it's the overall attitude of most mages that has drastically changed and I do not think much will fix that outside of pulling a rug and nobody really wants that.

 

Only thing I could see would be minor changes to dissuade the CRP attitude like amendments to make purely combative lore for voidal magic to take up multiple slots, or something.

 

Right now, it's like every mage feels like we should fill all 5 slots else we're behind or something stupid even though it should be fully about using the lore to theme your character and bring a magical whimsical flavor to roleplay.

Hit the nail on the head for my opinion. I really hope the divination write passes for this reason, just to have more non-CRP things. Everything is so min/maxy with void mage. Just look at all the people picking up water evo after the rewrite just because it's a rather potent school of magic now. More whimsy and fun I think would go a long way. 

[King_Kunuk 3022]

So Void magic for me has been a lore both loved and hated in equal measure. There is a LOT to unpack with it.

 

Firstly, the good things

void magic is a rather safe, 'new player' magic to use. It is very simple to unpack and understand, and playing a full 5 slot void mage can be a lot of fun- speaking from experience. It lets players fill out that magical whimsy niche if done right. Overall- the Void as it is is fine, and works well as a lore piece that has existed basically since the founding of LotC.

HOWEVER there is one thing about Void Magic that has always bothered me.

That is- to use void magic, which to even new players like myself may just come off as some fun, whimsy arcane wizard larp requires you to pull power form a literal Eldritch Realm that corrupts everything it touches. It is a supremely evil source for a magic that is mean to be about 'creating' your spells with your imagination on a blank, empty, nothingness. Frankly, I wish that the 'supreme evilness' and 'whimsy goofy arcane magic' got split apart more, rather then the two always being involved with each other to some extent. But this is just wishful thinking on my end.

 

It comes down to how you rp your mage- and if you decide to be a giga evil voidal worshipping idiot who is evil because 'waa wwaaa the voidal horrors told me to be an *******', or a highly based magic power crack head who snorts magic meth and shots lasers form his eyes or gandalf larper who does party tricks because 'im bored'

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

17 minutes ago, _Elrith_ said:

The Void could have been a better-written roleplay concept and mechanic. Still, it suffers from LMs wanting to create something within the 'boundaries' of what was accepted instead of trying to refurbish and establish something new. 

The Void is a boundless realm of chaos and entropy, ruled by nothing. There is no god, king, or lord of the Void; it is a realm of complete and utter nothingness. The existence of reality gives the Void tangibility. At the boundaries of 'reality,' the Void is given an 'orderly' nature and may come into 'existing' in a way it previously couldn't. The Void is not something to be understood because it can't be understood. There isn't a way for any mortal mind to wrap itself around what nothingness is. From this chaotic entropy, creatures not bound by the laws of our universe came into being seeking to do whatever they could, be it destroy, create, or understand this new universe that previously did not exist for them. Thus, horrors, terrors, and behemoths spawned from chaos and sought reality. The Void is themed by being an incomprehensible dimension beyond the understanding of mortality, beyond life and death, beyond what people define as 'godly,' it is a concept that allows players to explore the more esoteric and eldritch side of roleplay. Chthulu, Azathoth, Nylarthotep, the works of Lovecraft, Chambers, King, Poe. 

However, in player Roleplay, the Void does not go past the machinations of ST involvement. It's not about a mage drawing power from literal oblivion, but rather, Void magic is a canvas for mages to freely explore any theme they desire. This freedom of exploration is a powerful tool in the hands of the players, allowing them to shape their own narratives. That is not a bad thing, but the lore of the Void does not indulge such at all. LMs will tell you 'grimdark' and moral 'nuance,' but that doesn't actually create any moral nuance at all if it isn't applied in roleplay, and it isn't easily applied in roleplay when you can't see how being a void mage is literal evil. Instead most Void mages you come across are some form of wizard archetype that indulges cute spellcasting and Hogwarts roleplay, again that isn't bad. However, it would be entirely more fitting for a separate category of magic to be made for groups of players who want to explore freeform magic roleplay and not need to confine themselves to a theme. The Void has a theme, and its magics do not confine a player to its theme, which means the themeless magics that the players use come from a source of super evil that doesn't actually get roleplayed. It is probably one of the dumbest things on LotC and is entirely the failings of lore ST.

Dragon Age, a great franchise btw, has more moral nuance to its magic than the Void ever will, and the magic of Dragon Age isn't nearly as giga evil as the Void. 

tl;dr, make mana sorcerery magic for themeless spellcasters to create their own theme and narrative using mana and then turn the void into actual eldritch magic roleplay.

 

I've definitely wondered why there isn't a more simple/less morals conflicting form of elemental magic, given you can as a Voidal Mage just entirely ignore the source of your power without any drawbacks. Every other magic has to, in some way, respect the source of its power (The PK Clause on Bloodmagic, DC clauses on deity magics + the mental effects they all cause) except for Voidal Magic.

 

Obviously, a elemental magic would have to render its users as physically weak as a Void Mage or run the risk of being "better" Void Magic, but as Etan Says:

28 minutes ago, Mr. Etan said:

Only thing I could see would be minor changes to dissuade the CRP attitude like amendments to make purely combative lore for voidal magic to take up multiple slots, or something.

 

 

I imagine the same problem of minmaxing would arise with a non-voidal elemental magic - Though I think it's worth consideration at least. You are right - the Void is a awful absence of anything and non-existence where nothing exists, but I think how that's interpreted by the characters should be freeform (Do you use its nothingness to do potent magic, or attempt to understand what cannot be in a doomed-to-fail plot for power that results in insanity?), just not ignorable.

 

9 minutes ago, King_Kunuk said:

So Void magic for me has been a lore both loved and hated in equal measure. There is a LOT to unpack with it.

 

Firstly, the good things

void magic is a rather safe, 'new player' magic to use. It is very simple to unpack and understand, and playing a full 5 slot void mage can be a lot of fun- speaking from experience. It lets players fill out that magical whimsy niche if done right. Overall- the Void as it is is fine, and works well as a lore piece that has existed basically since the founding of LotC.

HOWEVER there is one thing about Void Magic that has always bothered me.

That is- to use void magic, which to even new players like myself may just come off as some fun, whimsy arcane wizard larp requires you to pull power form a literal Eldritch Realm that corrupts everything it touches. It is a supremely evil source for a magic that is mean to be about 'creating' your spells with your imagination on a blank, empty, nothingness. Frankly, I wish that the 'supreme evilness' and 'whimsy goofy arcane magic' got split apart more, rather then the two always being involved with each other to some extent. But this is just wishful thinking on my end.

 

It comes down to how you rp your mage- and if you decide to be a giga evil voidal worshipping idiot who is evil because 'waa wwaaa the voidal horrors told me to be an *******', or a highly based magic power crack head who snorts magic meth and shots lasers form his eyes or gandalf larper who does party tricks because 'im bored'

 

This may be me personally, but Housemagic exists - its the new player friendly magic: It doesn't require a TA, you can make self-teach books freely, anyone T5 can teach up to 5 other people, and it has a grand total of 1 Combative spell with strict redlines and requirements. I dislike the notion any magic is for new players, and others are not - A magic's ability to be understand and taught lies equally parts in the quality and upkeep of the lore, and the communities/TAs for that magic. Void magic should be be rendered simple not because its for the new players - it should be rendered simple because a specific area needs the most straightforward, non-esoterical explanation. 

 

I do agree - what The Void is should be a bit more prevalent in Void Magic. With the Feats (especially Voidstalking and Veilwatching) a mage is brought closer to the reality of what the Void is at it influences them - but these are optional things, and if you're just minmaxing a CRP build, they [The mental effects that allow a character to be influenced by the Reality of the Void] dont really matter. Nothings stopping you from working with another powerful magic, or users of that magic from working with you if your trying to squeeze the most CRP viability out of your group. 

 

I think most people concur, and would like to see the reality of what the Void is more prevalent in Voidal Magic - the question to me is how would you achieve that? I've never really had a good answer.

[MrMojoMordor 2413]

25 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

simple/less morals conflicting form of elemental magic

Pretty sure that would be Elementalists under Shamanism - It's the only combat type too in the Shaman category, but Shamans are in the LT's deep-freezer right now & there's a whole lot other issues.
TBH - i've never seen an elementalist.

Edited September 1, 2024 by MrMojoMordor

[Minuvas 3193]

Can we clarify where this idea of the void being evil comes from? 

 

The void is nothingness, while it may evoke poisonous affects on reality - that doesn't give it a morality as a source of power. 

 

There are magics that require literal worship of evil deities, the raising of dead, and the use of blood and souls - but the void doesn't cross any such threshold other than raw void doesn't mix well with the mortal plane. 

 

I've seen this player creep before and it's snuck into RP that void magic is evil, but this seems like a player construct more than a lore construct. Can someone correct me on that? 

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

2 minutes ago, MrMojoMordor said:

Pretty sure that would be Elementalists under Shamanism - It's the only combat type too in the Shaman category, but Shamans are in the LT's deep-freezer right now & there's a whole lot other issues.
TBH - i've never seen an elementalist.

 

I mean a mana-based wizard magic - totally free of deity influence. Let people do the whimsical wizard archtype without having the baggage of what Void Lore is - though I worry that introduces a giant amount of overlap with existing elemental magics, like Voidal and and whatever Shamanism has.

[PCSwift 1422]

58 minutes ago, Mr. Etan said:

I think where Void Magic is at now is fine but it's the overall attitude of most mages that has drastically changed and I do not think much will fix that outside of pulling a rug and nobody really wants that.

 

Only thing I could see would be minor changes to dissuade the CRP attitude like amendments to make purely combative lore for voidal magic to take up multiple slots, or something.

 

Right now, it's like every mage feels like we should fill all 5 slots else we're behind or something stupid even though it should be fully about using the lore to theme your character and bring a magical whimsical flavor to roleplay.

Roleplay wise the attitude of Voidal magic has shifted completely. There's a noticable lack of quality from voidal mages that I've seen I mean shit I've been given three slots of it (joking of course). The quality of player has diminished, and powergaming the magic happens frequently to a point where it's a common occurence. 

 

I've seen a strikingly few amount of insane/mentally crazy scions because it simply 'fits a theme' they want to play. They want their own direction for roleplay that the scion lore simply doesn't have or write for. My character himself is crazy, and people oocly are super confused when I freak the **** out ic because nobody roleplays that side effect of the magic. I think personally the aspect of a voidal scion should be explored a lot more, by not only the players who play them but in the esoteric (poorly written) lore guide for the class. 

 

And finally, I do agree with that last point. Everybody is in such a rush it feels like to get the most broken, min maxed character with all slots filled with the most unbalanced magics. (Air, Translo, and Water come to mind as insanely strong not to get side tracked, air has a ridirect spell that is REALLY strong). It seems like each group desires to find the strongest crpers to win, rather than experience the world through the lens of a character. I remember back in Atlas, I was a little dominion fleeper and I saw someone with ONLY lightning evocation. Super bad ass encounter, where he slung spells that won a combat roleplay encounter for his side. with just ONE! (strong) magic! Nowadays, that shit just doesn't happen. You have to have a gazillion spell slots to keep up with everyone, and I think the reason for that is teaching slots being three people. 

 

I've seen few people actually take advantage of the teacher-student roleplay, and the roleplay they offer is EXQUISITE! I only wish that players wouldn't abuse the 3 ta slot system for that shit. Def we should have a 1 ta slot system, and it's not possible but put the cat back in the bag.

 

 

 

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

1 minute ago, Minuvas said:

Can we clarify where this idea of the void being evil comes from? 

 

The void is nothingness, while it may evoke poisonous affects on reality - that doesn't give it a morality as a source of power. 

 

There are magics that require literal worship of evil deities, the raising of dead, and the use of blood and souls - but the void doesn't cross any such threshold other than raw void doesn't mix well with the mortal plane. 

 

I've seen this player creep before and it's snuck into RP that void magic is evil, but this seems like a player construct more than a lore construct. Can someone correct me on that? 

 

I suppose that defends on how broadly you consider "evil":

 

Specifically, yes - the Void lacks morality as a total nothing beyond everything, and cannot be good or evil. Typically though, I think most people consider anything that doesn't want them dead as "Good", and anything that does as "Evil." I can't blame the RP approach either - the conduct of plenty of mage characters drives others to their own views. I think OOCly, however - its good to keep in mind the Void is absent of the good/evil archtypes and simply annihilates whatever it encounters, be it through Tears and Hollows or more indirectly through Horrors.

[_Elrith_ 4525]

9 minutes ago, Minuvas said:

Can we clarify where this idea of the void being evil comes from? 

 

The void is nothingness, while it may evoke poisonous affects on reality - that doesn't give it a morality as a source of power. 

 

There are magics that require literal worship of evil deities, the raising of dead, and the use of blood and souls - but the void doesn't cross any such threshold other than raw void doesn't mix well with the mortal plane. 

 

I've seen this player creep before and it's snuck into RP that void magic is evil, but this seems like a player construct more than a lore construct. Can someone correct me on that? 

This isn't a player construct. The Void is a realm of chaos and entropy whose purpose is to consume and destroy reality. Naturally, the average, sane person in roleplay sees this as evil. If we want to be pedantic, morality itself is subjective. However, I am not an *******, thus the Void is evil.

[King_Kunuk 3022]

20 minutes ago, _Elrith_ said:

This isn't a player construct. The Void is a realm of chaos and entropy whose purpose is to consume and destroy reality. Naturally, the average, sane person in roleplay sees this as evil. If we want to be pedantic, morality itself is subjective. However, I am not an *******, thus the Void is evil.

ya. Like- the void is 'evil' in the sense that it is just some horrific natural disaster that destroys everything it touches. By using Void Magic- you are actively inviting in this natural disaster, rather then it just naturally happening. I think in lore the world is fated to literally 'end' when the veil breaks apart over some natural decay and the nothingness of the void obliterates reality- but being a void mage and casting just speeds up this process. 

[Direswift 296]

I like crp and crping on my mage is fun. Casting flame throwers and a well placed sound blast is more fun than a "swings sword" emote for the 6th time

 

I dont think much about voidal magic needs to be changed, the lore is very clear and defined in what it can and can not do, if the issue is the player base who focuses too much on crp, then idk what you can do besides just getting rid of the magic and restarting. 99% of voidal magic outside of transfig is combative magic, what do you expect will happen when you only give players combative spells, very few things are used outside of crp