Unattunement is Flawed

[Hawkeye_Gough 624]

6 hours ago, Spoopy_Duck said:

I personally like chaos DC over any sort of staff protection or handholding of the process (the argument would then be that said staff member is simply biased towards the person being dc'd thats why it happened!) but I do want to say your view of the other "holy" magics DC systems is rather skewed to make druidism sound worse than it is.

Paladin as far as I remember did allow chaos DC as the arbiter of whether a tenant was broken or not was the DCing paladin and there was no redlines saying it needed staff verification if that were true. Notably also paladin DC was a PERMANENT sever from the magic.

Templar is also not an "ooc consent" DC. What is OOC about it is that the "victim" in the case of the duel is allowed to choose the gear and weapons that will be used with the option for both sides to agree to use alternatives outside of LOTC if they wish. Control of the DC is still firmly in the challengers hands and the lore actually says that OOCly dodging or refusing the duel will result in automatic defeat. Plus with templar there is also the ability to be permanently DC'd as a consequence.

Now druid is the unique one (i won't touch shaman completely unfamiliar with that lore and that lore is a mess anyways) in which there is nothing preventing the reconnection of a druid (unless you have hit the 2 deity dc button which is just a server lore rule not druid specific). Plus I do believe unless I am mistaken that the rewrite still allows the old rules where if you get reattuned within a month you get to come back at whatever tier and spell knowledge you previously held. 

Dark magics are also I believe basically all chaos DC with the exception of seer but this seemed to solely address holy magics and their systems so I will keep it with the holy magics.
 

I agree with your overall point, but just adding some context!!

Dark magics are largely not Chaos DC, except Naz (and maybe palmreader? No clue). Mysticism is "top down" DC, where any single Wight can DC any non-wight, and Necromancer has no DC method whatsoever.

I actually think chaos DC could maybe be added  to more dark magics, as at the end of the day it does feel very dark magic core.

[Navigator 4260]

I want to start by saying that I'm writing this without reading any comments, and as someone who's never been a druid, as well as someone who plays a member of one of the most brutal magics on the server (Naztherak) when it comes to disconnection, so please excuse me if I seem a little irked right now. 

 

I will tl;dr my rant NOW so you don't have to read it: If you believe a disconnection was bullshit/oocly motivated, report it. If not? IC actions have IC consequences. 'BUT IT ISN'T FAIR!!!' life isn't fair. Cope. Deal with it IC. 'My entire character arc got ruined'. Trust me, as a Naz player, the only reason I can comfortably play my character now is because he's achieved Zar'akal and he's literally immortal barring a few things. I can guarantee you Naz is 10000000000x more stressful, specially since we permanently lose our slots and cannot be reconnected whatsoever. 

 

Anyway, onto the rant. It's in two parts, not even that long, two paragraphs, I promise. Again, I apologise if the language seems abrasive - I promise its nothing personal, I just feel like people whinge about IC issues OOCly way too much, and with all the 'Empire this' and 'Empire that' floating around while no one has balls to do anything about it IC, I've felt specially inclined to comment on things.

 

1st point; Unfairness is the way the world works. Unfair things happen in LotC all the time, be it micro or macro. I think it's extremely unfair that an extremely gatekept CA (demi-djinns) get special privileges to the point ST has to scold people for letting them fly around without pex just because their lore is cool. I find it extremely unfair that Naztherak is incompatible with something like Lycan because it'd be a really cool aesthetic. Unfairness will always be there, both ICly and OOCly, but I can guarantee you, Druidic Unattunement is not one of those unfairnesses. Chaos DC, as its called currently iirc, is LEAGUES better than Tenet DCs because it leaves it up to player agency. The belief and statement that 'players cant be trusted' is extremely slanted and makes me believe you people don't trust the people you write with, be they close or distant. If you want to apply a measure to the macro, you have to understand the micro will be affected too. By implying you don't trust the playerbase at large, you imply that even a close friend of yours shouldn't be trusted, because we are all prone to the same human flaws of being greedy, ambitious or vindictive. No one is the Buddha or has achieved some sort of enlightenment of being to be completely selfless, and leaving it to player agency makes it more freeform and RP-based rather then 'hey, i got a pic of this guy breaking tenets, report him to ST and lets get him dc'd'. That's just scummy and boring.

 

2nd point, related intimately to the 1st; Who said anything has to be fair? One of the most well-established and recurrent themes/facts in lore is that the Aengudaemonica in LOTC are not good people whatsoever and are just as flawed as descendantkind. They are greedy, some of them genocidal, some of them flat out insane. From a lore standpoint, the Aspects wouldn't or shouldn't really care if a druid broke tenets or if another druid is being dishonest by unattuning another druid. So long as they retain a large amount of servants that are willing to do their bidding, what is one less? furthermore, I remember in Axios with tenet-based DCs, the druids were so stupidly fragmented that they could barely get anything done, and I vividly remember so many of them genuinely dropping their characters/not doing much because they couldn't DC the bad apples because they weren't explicitly breaking tenets, just skirting the line. Chaos DC doesn't care - if you skirt the line, it's up to IC consequences what happens to you.

 

I lied, 3rd point/paragraph; I'm a personal fan of harsh DC mechanis for Deific magics and DarkDeific magics because the gods are hungering and they crave power. If you take their power, you're expected to use it according to their beliefs/will. Disconnection should be at least unpredictable if not punishing, and I think Druidic Chaos DC and Naztherak DC both accomplish this very well (I personally dislike the Templar Duel DC but I can see how it can be... 'effective' in giving a good chance to the disconnectee).

 

Anyway, thats all. Good night, happy holidays.

[BakedPotato 1020]

I dont see much mention of it besides from Evon so i wanted to put it out there, shamanism disconnection is basically non-existent and shouldn’t talked about with the rest. It only happens when you pick up incompatible magic or you stop worshipping and start trash talking the spirit giving you all your power. Even then they give you multiple chances. Shamans can do literally anything and not get disconnected, your more likely to get blacklisted from the magic then get dced unless you purposely get yourself dced.

[DISCOLIQUID 2701]

we should bring back silit d/c for druids, if you get eaten by another druid you are pk'd like how nature intended

[Ardory 2978]

If you think disconnecting a character from a magic “ruins” that character then you shouldn’t have that magic in the first place.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

3 hours ago, Astrophysical said:

If you think disconnecting a character from a magic “ruins” that character then you shouldn’t have that magic in the first place.

Ho ho ho, merry Christmas 

[Suzzie 866]

4 hours ago, Astrophysical said:

If you think disconnecting a character from a magic “ruins” that character then you shouldn’t have that magic in the first place.

Okay I am actually going to call this a bad take and here's why:

 

Magic on LoTC is a huge time-gated time sink investment, ESPECIALLY with how long it took to get Druidism to T5 pre-rewrite AND including dedicancy which for many was weeks to months. I myself would admittedly be rather dour about losing something that took such a long amount of time to get which I think is a fairly reasonable reaction- Though the key part is that would be something to overcome. Void magic (and all the others to my knowledge) also take a while too- You're waiting like ~1/4 of the year to hit max.. That is a bit of time. 

 

Some characters develop through roleplay to revolve around the magic and that is not necessarily a flaw- some good roleplay can be had to deal with such a fallout. But if I felt like I got arbitrarily DC'd for little to no IC reason, yeah I would feel like my character was ruined for no other than someone's whims.

I am not saying that is what happened here, but I can understand the frustration. 

[spaazmatism 1018]

4 hours ago, Astrophysical said:

If you think disconnecting a character from a magic “ruins” that character then you shouldn’t have that magic in the first place.

[Ardory 2978]

22 minutes ago, Suzzie said:

Okay I am actually going to call this a bad take and here's why:

 

Magic on LoTC is a huge time-gated time sink investment, ESPECIALLY with how long it took to get Druidism to T5 pre-rewrite AND including dedicancy which for many was weeks to months. I myself would admittedly be rather dour about losing something that took such a long amount of time to get which I think is a fairly reasonable reaction- Though the key part is that would be something to overcome. Void magic (and all the others to my knowledge) also take a while too- You're waiting like ~1/4 of the year to hit max.. That is a bit of time. 

 

Some characters develop through roleplay to revolve around the magic and that is not necessarily a flaw- some good roleplay can be had to deal with such a fallout. But if I felt like I got arbitrarily DC'd for little to no IC reason, yeah I would feel like my character was ruined for no other than someone's whims.

I am not saying that is what happened here, but I can understand the frustration. 

 

I have said and I will continue to say that magic is supposed to supplement rp and not revolve around it. If one loses their magic through the whims of others then do something about it irp rather than whine on the forums. Even if people hate the idea of reporting it to mods due to meta suspicions.

 

This tells that they are building an uninteresting and a very shallow character rather than developing it by other means. The time sink to even get a magic is just another story arc rather than the ENTIRE story.

 

I won’t say any more on this due to being a bit more off topic. Msg me if you have any more questions.

 

 

[Suzzie 866]

Just now, Astrophysical said:

 

I have said and I will continue to say that magic is supposed to supplement rp and not revolve around it. If one loses their magic through the whims of others then do something about it irp rather than whine on the forums. Even if people hate the idea of reporting it to mods due to meta suspicions.

 

This tells that they are building an uninteresting and a very shallow character rather than developing it by other means. The time sink to even get a magic is just another story arc rather than the ENTIRE story.

Then this is a difference of opinion lol.

 

It's not a flaw to revolve around it- some of these magics literally introduce a culture that does that in roleplay! There is a line that should be drawn but there are some types of characters that it makes sense for this.

Haven't you ever experienced discontent over magic/CA grind? I don't think this is a totally unreasonable reaction- There is heavy disappointment even when it's justified. I'd rather people try to have a discussion (which seems pretty productive for "whining")!

My own character is heavily embroiled in magic- If someone up and robbed Indilwen of all hers for petty reasons yeah I'd be annoyed. Void is a little different where you can self teach once you have a TA, but I have a busy job which sucks a LOT of my time outside of LoTC. That's annoying as hell. Though I would genuinely report it likely if it were bad faith.

At the end of the day I don't think it hurts to have a little empathy in this scenario.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

8 minutes ago, Astrophysical said:

 

I have said and I will continue to say that magic is supposed to supplement rp and not revolve around it. If one loses their magic through the whims of others then do something about it irp rather than whine on the forums. Even if people hate the idea of reporting it to mods due to meta suspicions.

 

This tells that they are building an uninteresting and a very shallow character rather than developing it by other means. The time sink to even get a magic is just another story arc rather than the ENTIRE story.

 

I won’t say any more on this due to being a bit more off topic. Msg me if you have any more questions.

 

 

>bad takes on magic

>herald/void mage

 

I have had void magic, Naztherak, and rare alchemy/further alchemy. I can confidently state my character is supplemented and not defined by these things and equally if I got rolled at 5am by what I believed to be a bad faith attempt to get rid of me I’d tweak tf out.

 

Both what you and Suzzie are saying are true at the same time. In the same manner your story shouldn’t removed around a particular thing, no one should have the ability to interact with you literally once and forever remove it from your character. Obviously that’s not what happened in the original post but we’re well past the subject 

[Werew0lf 24180]

Druidism DC can't be bad because I wrote druidism and nothing I write is bad.

 

Many thanks. 

[JustMeMorgan 2065]

Just do voidal magic, nobody can disconnect you from that :)

 

Spoiler

what i'm trying to say w/ this is that disconnections across all magics are wildly different. Disconnections were put in place to completely devoid a person of what magic they like and make the almost half a year of rp building up a magic merely just a footnote giving the person the feeling that they've wasted their time and have not created anything enjoyable.

 

Disconnection doesn't just stop an MA, it completely cuts a person out of a social group they may had been building up for quite some time.

 

The fact that disconnection rituals are so vastly different in how they work is basically a clear display of how much the lorewriters wanted selected people to control the magic: how many people can disconnect? is there a clear imbalance? are there ways for the dominant big heads to have better control of the magic?)

 

'oh nuke their templarism their been offline evading us' could be an easy excuse to shaft another player who took hiatus because their mum died, at the end of the day you do not know each other.

 

Does it require multiple people to disconnect one person could elude to the classical 'circlejerk', on the other hand making it so one person whose had to have specific requirements and build up (sorry mystics, we're talking about wights) who can add and remove people is also a very strange circumstance. Overall there is not much of a goldilocks spot, or at least one has not been found.

 

Large groups for discon = gives way to circlejerks and top dog situations

One strong individual = gives way to minmaxing which personally I believe templarism/mystic can be like. You want to keep control of your magic and have the ability to take other people's. So you make sure you win every fight.

 

 

[MayRndz 1830]

This definitely is a situation where dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Chaos DC for druids objectively has no reason to be regulated IRP, this is because the aspects do not care and tenants are purely cultural with this magic. Each Druid culture can have their own reasons and regulations on this - for the most part though we only see unattunement happen once every few months. It’s not being thrown around wildly and thus doesn’t feel like a huge issue to me at the moment. This is why I like it, this community self regulates, and it keeps the foundation of role play feeling less interrupted.

 

To regulate it IRP would make no sense, and to force and OOC agreement just means no one would ever agree to it for the most part because unattunement is objectively going to be uncomfortable no matter the scenario.

 

To involve staff oversight often ends up with the staff member just being called bias as well and becomes a bigger disconnect - nor do any staff members want to sit there and watch a 6 hour roleplay. If there becomes an issue with the roleplay such as metagame or truly seeing an OOC bias/attack then both story enforcement and mods can handle it. In the case of the most recent one, the players doing it did not know the player OOC and had pretty much never interacted with them for the most part. There was no ooc motivation behind the discconect, it was purely roleplay so even with staff oversight it still would have happened just with added barriers to make it happen.

 

TLDR don’t fix something that’s not broke, the current system has been working fine.