Ooc - Is It Honourable For An Orc To....

[Jutra 51]

((Captureing slaves for the express purpose of selling them?

Now I'm not talking about capturing them for labour, or them being the rewards of a pillage or a raid. I'm not even talking about if capturing them in and of itself is honourable.

I mean: is it honourable to simply capture them to do nothing more then sell them for financial gain.

We are orcs with strength and honour as things we uphold above all else, this is part of our Lore. I don't see where strength or honour is earned or shown in these captures and auctions. Are these driven by finiancial need as oppose to greed?

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here but I'd like to see how this practice is justified in orcish terms within our moral compass. ))

[Sultan 3953]

(Pinkskins are worthless, if they were not worthless then they would not be captured, and put to slavery, Orcs do not have the same honor as seen in fictional knights they have a twisted way of honor, one example is)

(I meet a human on raid or on tribute party for example and I want to kill him he dose not pull out his sword, and says you are unhonourble by killing a defenceles man, that is not seen unhonourble by orcs but it is unhonourble to them to see a man go down without a fight, so they view him as without honor and cut his throat in cold blood.)

(Basically you go by the principle of Honor is only given to the strong.)

(Also another all pinkskin to don't deserve Honor until proven otherwise.)

(Benefits on capturing and selling slaves, well if you do not need them and it gets money from selling them, the money gose to fuel the warmachine of the Warnation that is good and useful to dip your hands into, as with the money you buy gear, ores and weopens and armor, thats my take on it, il like to see Ned and Blawharags comments also.)

(Also as it seems this is a question brought up by Poks recent selling of slaves, although I see it as dumb and stupid for a Rex to do such dirty work thats why you have grunts, and if he is feeling his own coffers and not using the money to supply the smiths and coffers of the nation then its dumb stupid and selfish and some one should punch some sense into him)

(Counter to this is of-course, some one would say well Orc slaves or something, if a Orc is in slaved then he is a WEAKLING and 110% sought out and killed, he dose not deserve to live end of story we cull our weak so there should be no orc slaves, when I say orc I mean Uruk, not Whitewash..)

[Ned Lud 1260]

((The way I view it, slaves are nothing more than personal property. They have been defeated and captured and have thus shown that they are weak and dishonorable. It is an honorable mercy that we allow them to live in such a state. Orcs in general have limited trade skills, as most of us are warriors. The capture and sale of slaves is a fine practice for the sake of financial gain that benefits the War Uzg, just as the sale of any item would be, but I would never let it amount to greed. If I dealt in slaves, I would likely run them into the ground as an orcish resource first. When the time came to sell slaves, I would sell them only to allies and the minas or resources traded would go towards the War Uzg and/or Gorkil Clan.

By taking a slave and working him to death, you ensure that he dies in service of the War Uzg or it's allies, which is a much greater honor for him than to simply die groveling at one's feet on the battlefield. We are not merely abusing and bullying these strangers, we are plucking them from their state of weakness and dishonor, and allowing them to serve a higher calling. We offer them a chance at redemption.

This is the same view I hold towards cannibalism of the lesser races. If you will not serve the War Uzg in life, your meat will serve my belly in death. Your bones will fertilize orcish wheat. Your hide will mend orcish armor. Your scraps will ferment into orcish glue. Whatever remains after that will feed our messenger birds. You will honor the War Uzg, willingly or not.

What I would personally not do, however:

- Deal in orcish slaves. (Weak orcs should be slain.)

- Sell to a stranger or an enemy.

- Needlessly abuse or neglect my slaves while they are caged, bound or otherwise defenseless. (Slaves are like tools. Treat a slave like you would treat a tool. Sharpen it, oil it, if it stops working though, bang it with a hammer a few times.)

That's just my insight.))

[Jutra 51]

I appreciate the perspective - I was hoping for claification and opinions here and I got it. What of children - the recent captures have been under 20 years of human age, not fallen warriors - same rules apply?

[Ned Lud 1260]

There might be some gray area there, but overall, I would say it still applies. We're pretty rough with our cubs, I wouldn't expect us to treat the children of an enemy nation any differently, certainly not better. Most youth would be less valuable as slaves though, as they would be less experienced and physically weaker and in performing manual slave labor. A discerning slaver would generally seek out more seasoned and stronger workers, such as miners or lumberjacks. Those would fetch a higher price from customers that know the business. Although if the market is buying children at a high price, by all means, sell them at a high price.

It all comes back to how we rear our cubs. Only the strongest survive and are worthy of our respect.

[Jarkarll 314]

There might be some gray area there, but overall, I would say it still applies. We're pretty rough with our cubs, I wouldn't expect us to treat the children of an enemy nation any differently, certainly not better. Most youth would be less valuable as slaves though, as they would be less experienced and physically weaker and in performing manual slave labor. A discerning slaver would generally seek out more seasoned and stronger workers, such as miners or lumberjacks. Those would fetch a higher price from customers that know the business. Although if the market is buying children at a high price, by all means, sell them at a high price.

It all comes back to how we rear our cubs. Only the strongest survive and are worthy of our respect.

On many levels a child can be a better slave on the long run. Never educate it, don't give it any knowledge of freedom, and don't let it know about anything outside of it's work area, and that slave can grow big and strong, and be just as dumb as he is big.

A seasoned worker however could know of what lies outside his work area, and would have the highest chance of rebelling because he knows the reward beyond. Not only that but a seasoned warrior would actually have a chance of escaping.

My tip either don't get slaves at all, or chop of a foot.

[Ned Lud 1260]

((Or just make sure that the floor of your cage isn't a few feet of sand. :P))

[Blawharag 277]

On the topic of slaves in general:

It really boils down to individual preference. There is no real code book on what can and shouldn't be done other than the obvious extremes (Like Ned said, don't senselessly abuse them ect.) There is nothing stopping an Orc from selling a slave, however bear in mind that Orcs do not use money. Therefore, properly an Orc would trade the slave for a resource directly in most cases (accepting money would only be necessary if the person purchasing did not have the resource the Orc was looking for, but someone else did). In this way, could be viewed as trading and resource for any resource. Bear in mind Orcs are close to Elves in regard to nature and perceive trees as living things as much as a human, yet we still cut them down and trade them for supplies.

Individual Orcs, like Blawharag, may have a different taste for things. Some Orcs might have a level of compassion for the slaves and identify with them as living thing, being sure to treat them with respect and refusing to sell them. Orcs like Blawharag might be thoroughly racist bastards who wouldn't even take a slave, just on the principle that the weak should be slain. If he did have a slave, the poor sap would be upheld to grueling standards that Orcs could only hope to work at, and would likely die of exhaustion quickly.

As for children:

This also varies from person to person. I imagine most of us would be a little more forgiving on the child, but that isn't necessarily part of the culture, just a matter of preference. Blawharag in particular sees all children as "its", Tabula Rasa ready to be shaped into anything. As such, he does not identify children, any children, with any race (A carried over cultural standard where Orcs do not consider their children to be Orcs until they have reached adulthood). As such he believes every child should go through the same child rearing process the Orcs do. Learning in the same fashion that has weeded out the week for centuries. Those children, regardless of their race, that are strong enough for it will survive and earn Blaw's respect as a fellow Orc. The rest are dead. This is just one way of looking at it.

Essentially what should be taken away from all this is that the "Code of Honor" is not this hyperspecific thing. If every Orc had the exact same views on honor, we would never be arguing amongst ourselves and there would be no need for arena duels. There are overarching themes to it, "Kill the Weak, they burden the earth", "Respect the Ancestors and the Elders", "Do senselessly abuse slaves" things like that. But the really specific stuff like "Should I sell this slave or would that be bad" is more a ground of individual preference in which Orcs have slightly varying opinions that might sometimes lead to an arena duel to prove which is right in any given case.

[kalista 18]

((When someone is made a slave, they become, for all practical and lawful purpose, an animal. And animals have no rights, they own nothing, rather it is them which is owned. In this respect, trading them is no different to selling a cow, or a pig.

Regarding children, female orcs especially, show some care for children of other races, slaves however are animals, so the care shown would be purely out of self interest. A cow with 4 legs is of more use than a cow with 3.

Orcs love proving they ate superior to other races, enslaving them is just another way in which we would prove our dominance, infact it would be seen as bub'hosh to take many slaves, it shows your strength.))