[Poll] YOUR View: Warclaims

[Skippy 2466]

No Wars were not done at all in Aegis. Because there was no such thing as proper war there was no threat of losing something, there was no threat of losing your capital or any of your land.

The Purge.

The First Dwarf/Orc War.

Siege of Alk.

Blackaxe Raid on Shadowninji's land.

Countless Undead wars on cities, ending with their destruction.

^ Pretty sure THAT counts as losing your land.

Probably many small ones, also.

[Ned Lud 1260]

We should handle our wars like we handle our PvP.

((Hey, wanna fight?))

((Sure.))

((Role-play or PvP?))

((PvP))

((Okay, let's do this.))

((Done.))

Obviously there are more logistics involved, but that's the gist of it. The War Claim system was nice in theory, but failed in practice, largely because either the defender didn't want to lose their stuff, or the attacker got greedy and threw the mutual respect and enjoyment of the enemy players to the wind.

Wars in Aegis were fun, but I think we can all admit that there needed to be a little more regulation and written law, especially as we transitioned from good versus evil combat to a focus on nation versus nation and faction versus faction combat. In Aegis we were sort've winging it and it usually got messy. So a compromise of the old and new way of doing things is probably best.

Wars should be treated as an Event with focus on the enjoyment of both parties involved. Are most nation leaders thin-skinned wieners that are afraid to lose their stuff? Usually. It's a shame, but it is what it is. But we warmongers ought to keep our head up and move onto an enemy that's going to appreciate a good fight. We're not looking to kick puppies, we're looking to die among fighting men.

And if they're being a wiener about it, there are always five-man raids. *wink*

[Sister Sequoia 438]

-nods- I was present in Skravia for BOTH of those happenings, and Skravia recieved a lot of hate from the attackers blaming us for the metagaming, when we were as much victims as the attackers. A player completely unaffiliated with Skravia RPly gave us information we had no way of knowing was metagamed, and we acted upon it. (I will point out though that "all of it's allies" is stretching it, we had 8 defenders against 30 attackers the first go and we still won, only 2 extra people showed up due to the meta'd information, Skravia had some competent war PVPers.)

Then the second attack rolled around, which OOCly we knew was coming sometime but RPly we knew nothing of, I was in the middle of Skravia RPing with about 9 other people, and there were many more around the city RPing as well, and suddenly there's a huge group of players killing us all, no shouts or warning (that we were able to see anyway, I was told they shouted from outside the opposite side of the city, but that put them too far away for any of us to actually hear) and it became on big no-RP kill, with Mog OOC shouting "YOU HAVE TO RP!" to little avail.

Suffice it to say, it was a mess, and I haven't seen at least a dozen of those Skravians on the server since that incident.

The warclaim system does not benefit us the way it was intended, and we were better off without it.

[sir lusty 15]

People concerned about timezones - like it states, if an attack is to be done at a time when the server has a low population online the GM may refuse it.

And Mogroka, the main reasons people hate War-Claims is that it restricts them further and makes them make another application. It opens the door to metagaming massively and it removes the aspect of spontaneous wars people used to enjoy. People lose with both systems, in fact there's no change in what they can lose with the new one, its the same as with the War-Claim losses?

Aerinyes, the point about no ModReq is the one part I've got to disagree with there - A GM is really required to be present in case of arguments, false kills, if something goes wrong and to also be there to provide support for any artillery being used, etc. If the GM team is made aware at least two hours in advance it gives us time to make sure there's appropriate amounts of staff online to deal with the battle and with regular players just roleplaying.

This is the problem. when most people are online in lotc. which is about 6 pm to 12 pm in the weekend America time zone. the clock is about 0-6 am in most European country´s which could be a problem for city´s with many players from Europa and this problem may also be in other country´s with time zones long away from Americas.

I like this idea though but 2 hours is simply not enough

[Lym 849]

So, I support this fully. I had made a post with about the same things written in it but I dissapeared into the void, since I was unable to find it in the archives or anywhere. Anyway, I only dissagree with this.

This is a quote from another forum which explains what I want to say very well. The first quote if from "Charlie4vB" the Second part is mine.

^^^Credits to "Charlie4vB for that post ^^^

That is my post. I read it through and I don't think their is any mention of the server name, so if I missed one pelase feel free to remove it. Other than that I think it explains quite clearly why I don't agree with that rule.

Just yes yes and yes. I loved the Essence warclaim system, it was sooooo much better and actually was fun :3

[Aerinyes 402]

We should handle our wars like we handle our PvP.

((Hey, wanna fight?))

((Sure.))

((Role-play or PvP?))

((PvP))

((Okay, let's do this.))

((Done.))

That's what I'm talking about :mrgreen:

Like Ned said, just a little more logistics then that, but thats still the basic concept. Two sides just wanting to have a bit of a fight and see what happens. No hard feelings, nothing lost, just a little fun event to have on the weekends.

If its an OOC agreement between two parties, there should be very in the little of complications which is why I said it would probably not even take a modreq. But I could see where if it involved a major populated area (city) then yeah because it would allow for them to put up a broadcast/motd to warn non-combatants to seek shelter so they don't get ganked and complain about being no-rp killed in PVP.

But if its out in the wild, throw caution to the wind. Heck I don't see why people couldn't do that right now, rule changes or not. If players want to have a little fight somewhere to themselves, let them.

And if they're being a wiener about it, there are always five-man raids. *wink*

That only works with PVP being default for fighting, which currently it isn't. But 5 man raids probably deserves its own thread.

[Bawd 222]

I'd like to propose a change to this, Danny; temporary conquest. It's not bound by as many rules, and the land has to be defended by the original attacker again at some point within the next forty-eight hours to keep the land. Or something like this. Basically, the attackers don't need a navy or bordering land, it could just be a large group of really angry Orcs setting up a temporary camp.

[Shar'ku/jenspelao 410]

I totally agree with austin, We should have at least a day of warning, It would ne extremely unfair if we couldn't get orcs online

[Cyndikate 2303]

What's going to stop the town's leader from metagaming? This is why I never give out any OOC information to anyone before attacking. What's going to stop him from rallying his teamspeak buddies who are not affiliated with his town to get their diamond armor and defend? That's enough to jeopardize a legitimate attack.

Unfortunately I don't trust people.

[Kickstarted and Running 965]

I support the removal of warclaims. It is stress causing for everyone/

[Austin 697]

Well I mean the war claims should probably be made just to explain the reason why a nation would war another, for example there is a large difference between nation A declaring war on nation B because nation B's leader commented on the fashion sense of nation leader A, thats a bad example a good example to declare war would probably be, something like a high political leader of Nation A saying that nation B's people are going to slowly disapere and return to Nation B's capital in giant piles of poop [YOU KNOW WHO I AM TALKING ABOUT.]

[Kanrath 190]

I had a couple problems with the old system that carried over into the war dec system as well. 1: People deliberately used clearly unsubstantiated rumor mongering for a roleplay reason to attack, this is silly and should not be allowed. If your going to go to war there are consequences even if you win and so they should not be taken lightly on some random persons perceived slight.

2: Some folks simply assumed that race was sufficient rp for why to go to war, orcs being the prime example when for a while there they went around attacking places for no apparent reason other then they were orcs and these areas were somewhere near their land.

3: "For Resources" now, I understand sometimes yes this is a valid reason, but for a nation that is wealthy and well supplied to suddenly attack a small town or other place for their "resources" is simply an rp excuse. Resources should only be seen as a valid reason when said resources are something the attacking nation is in need of. If your people are well fed and happy, you don't go attacking a farm community because all that food should rp wise pretty much go to waist.

In short, rp in so many war situations was horribly undeveloped, and we need to prevent that. And this does not mean those big well written rp things people had been doing befor war decs were shut down, those were simply a means to justifying an action's cause. People were literally writing 3-5 paragraphs to justify why they suddenly randomly attacked a place based on rumor, and then assuming those 3-5 paragraphs counted as rp. Instead anyone attacking should simply be required to explain to the gm in some detail why this is occurring, and in fact this could occur along with the nation/town/ect leader of the target nation as a one sided discussion is always biased even unintentionally.

One last thing, as magroka's attempt to place a bit more control over cannon use seems to have stopped in its tracks, could we perhaps have someone placed in charge of OKing the cannon use and level of cannon technology for nations and such? Cannons caused a lot of problems in the last month or two of war decs with improper use and such.

Heck even just a written guide on the use rp and ooc wise of cannons that is Oked and made official by a gm.

[Rhisereld 317]

A common issue I've faced with warclaims is that they have been posed with the sole purpose of obtaining the defender's land/town, with no intention to spark a good storyline. Once a warclaim is written, it feels as though the attacker is then entitled to a war, even one that the defender will not enjoy. Eventually you get to the point where you can come up with any excuse to go to war, and the defender just has to deal with it.

Roleplay is for the enjoyment of all. I can understand that it's considerate to back down and "lose" occasionally. However, I do not think that one person should completely destroy another person's enjoyment in order to "win".

[domainoft 191]

*cackles loudly*

Otherwise, I completely agree with this. I have never even been involved in a warclaim, but the arguments and fights that I have seen caused by them are enough to make me vote to change to this new system, because honestly, some of the worst drama on this server has been caused by poorly executed wars, which happen far too often than anybody should be comfortable with, ie. the dwarf vs. teuton war, for an extreme example.

[EDIT]

Does anybody remember the attack against..gosh, what was it..Wraths Clutch in Aegis? At least, it was a fortress owned by Wrath. A battle to attack that place was suddenly planned one day, and the White Ravens got called in within..probably about three hours, where they built a quick FOB, and the battle started, with the Malinor Wardens working in the background to set up walls. Suddenly, a druid came in, and he grew a ton of massive trees to help scale the castles walls, which we quickly took.

In the end, it was extremely fun, and the whole battle lasted about two to three hours, even though it was only planned a few hours before. I want to see more battles like that, than these ridiculous warclaims. If we had had warclaims in Aegis, I have no doubt that more than just the Malinor Wardens would have been there, and the entire thing would have just dragged on and been meta'd, to the point where I just would have avoided it completely.

The fortress was made into ruins soon after the battle, with vines and broken walls, which I used regularly to set up secret meetings, because it was a nostalgic location for my character. I mean, he practically helped spearhead the assault (most of the wardens were offline come battle ._. ).

Yes, and much was written about that battle both before and after. Like any great battle or war should be. If you can't recall a war It probably wasn't done very well. So many Asulon battles and wars go by without a single page being written about what happened, and what lead up to the battle. Such a shame.

[domainoft 191]

Agreed with Rhisereld, Even in real life we could find or create a reason to war with any nation we choose. The difference is, Wars cost lives. A resource that is not easily replaced. They sunder the foundations of peace between more than just the nations at war. And disrupt everyone living without those nations. The war-claims waged in Asulon do little of these things, win or lose your character goes forward, those attacking have the least to lose as they only lose what they invest in time and materials. There needs to be a measure of loss beyond the current scope. Surely the wise monks of the temple don't support brutal killings in false name. They could simply choose to stop healing the wounded from battle. If you faced the loss of your character you might think twice about starting the war in the first place....On the other hand, as was said we need not be concerned with who wins and who loses, but Why we are fighting in the first place. Boredom and land are no reasons to start a way. Injustice, Famine, and repression start honorable wars.