Clarification On The Quick Clarification On Pvp Default

[Aislin 4354]

 

"Both sides must agree to the type of fighting you're using - PvP or RP fighting. If an agreement cannot be reached, the type that is preferred by the majority of combatants will be used. If there is no majority, PvP is default. The majority is defined as the party that outnumbers the minority, even if only by 1 individual (so if 4 people want RP and 3 want PvP, the majority is in favor of RP and thus it's an RP fight)."

 

This is the new "rule clarification" as defined by the staff team as of today, which is found here. I'd like to preface this post by mentioning that this is not a clarification, the rules have changed.

 

Why is this a rule change as opposed to a clarification? If you refer to this thread announcing the change to PvP default, you will see that this was clarified by the administration from the start:

 

 

Just to Clarify: If both/all players want to RP fight, then that's fine. If you can't agree, it's PVP.

 

It's clear, from that alone, that this rule change has been mistakenly dubbed a clarification.

 

Before I continue, let's rewind to 8 months ago. The forums were aflame with vicious debate over which default form of combat should be selected -- PvP or RP. Despite stark advocacy from both sides, the staff decided upon PvP default.

 

Why did we need to move away from RP default? Some say because of the powergaming issue, others say that it alienated the Minecraft demographic, others that it led to too many ban reports. The list goes on. However, the overarching issue that stemmed from RP default was simple: it caused strife in the community. RP default led to long, drawn-out, and venomous arguments between RP and PvP supporters alike. Ultimately, LotC is meant to be endorsing cooperative roleplay, and the byproduct of RP default disrupted the cohesion that is necessary to cooperation in this fragile community.

 

When this heated debate first began in the summer of 2013, many floated around the idea of a "majority rules" system, where players would have to vote circumstantially upon whether they'd like to PvP or RP fight. This system was discarded early. This was because forcing players to deliberate before entering into combat would have resulted in excessive OOC disrupting roleplay and a large amount of disagreement between the community -- essentially, a majority rules system would have perpetuated the schism in the community that was present during the PvP-RP debate.

 

Fast-forward to today. The administration has decided that a majority-rules system should be fitted into PvP default, in that PvP is the absolute default under the circumstances that a majority cannot come to a decision. It's a nice, neat concept on paper. However, this will realistically translate to the separation of the community between RP and PvP supporters.

 

YES!

Take that you item hungry PvPers! For the skygods have turned on you.

 

Admin servants of the RP default demons in hell!!11

 

That occurred within 15 minutes of this rule change. Say what you will about PvP default, but after the initial backlash subsided, the community largely got along when it came to PvP and RP. It became a lot rarer to see people shouting "**** you pvp itemhungry flayzuz!!!!" and "furry cybering rp fags!!11!!". Everybody accepted that PvP was default, and those who disliked this either adapted, left, or went into isolation. Because of this rule change, the community is going to return to their respective corners of the metaphorical PvP-RP boxing ring. Those who support RP default will congregate into settlements, while those who support PvP default will do the same. OOC arguments are going to run rampant in-game, while the forums will continue to be lit up by the venomous debates that plagued it back in the summer/early fall.

 

Bottom line: as long as this rule change remains, the server is going to be perpetually divided between RP default and PvP default supporters. It will not be pretty or neat. The community is going to be at each others' throat.

 

Do you think this is going to facilitate cooperative roleplay?

 

Thanks,

Jahrmann.

[gam 386]

i thought you were the death of rp default

 

[Rig 17581]

Why was the good majority system discarded? It would've worked better, though I don't mind pvp all too much. 

[Aislin 4354]

Why was the good majority system discarded? It would've worked better, though I don't mind pvp all too much. 

 

No it is back as of today! And that's the problem.

[mmat 7460]

Admin servants of the RP default demons in hell!!11

 

 

The 11's at the end of my exclamation points imply that it was a joke.

[Hunter (sckolar) 50]

I think that over half of the arguments (Not all of it, but a lot of it) is from removing villain apps. Now you have players who do not know how to RP playing as villains with OOC motivations. Before, people who were actually serious about playing a villain actually took the time to write up a good RP app, now it's easy to do. I didn't see the argument escalate until shortly after they were removed.

 

Villains apps Showed motivation to RP, and actually have RP goals.

 

Adding these back in will not do away with it completely of course, but I think this is at least part of the issue.

 

Many bandit players use the: Well if I don't be quick about robbing, more players will show up. Well just ask a GM to sort through the chat to see if the player is meta-gaming? Can't they do that? (Not sure if they actually can)

[Lee Scorsby 34]

[Birdwhisperer 1174]

Why is letting the majority decide such a bad thing?

[argonian 14254]

I think that over half of the arguments (Not all of it, but a lot of it) is from removing villain apps. Now you have players who do not know how to RP playing as villains with OOC motivations. Before, people who were actually serious about playing a villain actually took the time to write up a good RP app, now it's easy to do. I didn't see the argument escalate until shortly after they were removed.

 

Villains apps Showed motivation to RP, and actually have RP goals.

 

Adding these back in will not do away with it completely of course, but I think this is at least part of the issue.

 

Many bandit players use the: Well if I don't be quick about robbing, more players will show up. Well just ask a GM to sort through the chat to see if the player is meta-gaming? Can't they do that? (Not sure if they actually can)

Villain applications didn't stop powergaming or item-hungry villains, it just forced people to write essays and didn't allow people to become villainous through dynamic RP, but rather through a mostly or completely made-up biography. The server is not about writing stories, the server is about being a character in a story. And so you shouldn't need to be good at writing to be a villain.

[Hunter (sckolar) 50]

Villain applications didn't stop powergaming or item-hungry villains, it just forced people to write essays and didn't allow people to become villainous through dynamic RP, but rather through a mostly or completely made-up biography. The server is not about writing stories, the server is about being a character in a story. And so you shouldn't need to be good at writing to be a villain.

 

Yeah it did. Poor villain RP, lead to you losing your villain app because there were strict rules that were specifically for villains. I believe I stated clearly that it would not 100% solve the issue as well, but a good chunk of it.

 

And yes, writing up that "essay" shows effort, that you actually wan- You know what, just read my post over and over lol

[Sentlit 108]

Why is letting the majority decide such a bad thing?

BECAUSE THE MAJORITY IS WRONG!!!! loljk

 

But in all seriousness, the only reasons that I don't  PvP is because there is 1. No system yet to represent my character's abilities in combat other then RP and 2. My horrific framerate for minecraft. Seriously, I can barely fend off mobs.

 

But also, I think PvP is made as restraint for people who lack the ability to maturely judge their character's abilities and actions versus another player's- and also due to the lack of a rolling system (which makes DnD exciting) that would make things easier. Rolling fights are fun, because you describe each action and roll to see if it succeeds. Makes sense to me as the main defense for PvP is that it is fair. Nothing is more fair than rolling a dice, right?

 

Seriously guys, screw RP or PvP default. It's all about ROLLplay. :3

[Ned Lud 1260]

I just think it's annoying to have to sit there and hash out the votes and the tie-breakers between two groups of people deciding how to go about killing one another. If anything destroys the role-play immersion, it's any player anywhere that can be arsed to sit there and muddle over this bullshit when it's time to kill one another. Just to clarify, kill me any way you'd like so long as I don't have to sit there beforehand and discuss, at length, how it's done, then tally up a vote, work my way towards a compromise, shake hands and document everything with screenshots, then count to five. Just kill me or walk away if I have to be arsed to butcher the immersion with this ****.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

I don't see what's so wrong with this. The only real 'issue' with numbers solves itself.

 

If you don't want to ever worry about RP, stay around people who will PvP. The same applies to those who don't like PvP. You can shout about how this will divide the playerbase all you want, but truth be told, the people who get angry at the thought of having to rp fight once in a while never got along with the people who were always staunch against PvP. The vast majority of players have always rolled with things as they change, and I doubt one rp fight every while is going to cause issues for anybody.

 

People PG? Ban report. I know a lot of people seem to think that BRs are bad, and that nobody should use them, but if a player PGs often enough to cause problems, and isn't responsive to attempts to teach him, why do we need to keep him? I know not every PG can be easily BRed, but a lot of it can. The so-called 'abundance' of Powergamers isn't the result of RP-Fighting, it's the result of people not reporting rule-breakers.

 

To add, if a fight starts with six people, and 5 of them want to rp, why should the will of one person decide it as PvP? The winner will likely be the same in either route, and if the lone person is really pressed for time (As many pvp arguments tend to be about), why not lose quickly? The fight won't take more than ten minutes, much less than the 'hours' people claim it to be.

 

Another argument I've seen is the large-numbers majority. An idea of a 35-person fight, 20 wanting rp and 15 pvp.

 

This won't happen.

 

I'm one of the most pro-rp default people on the server, and even I would vote PvP once it got past fifteen people (Maybe less, depending on who's there). The more people in a fight, the less chance that people will want rp-fighting. I can't imagine such a fight happening, and I certainly don't expect it to be common.

I just think it's annoying to have to sit there and hash out the votes and the tie-breakers between two groups of people deciding how to go about killing one another. If anything destroys the role-play immersion, it's any player anywhere that can be arsed to sit there and muddle over this bullshit when it's time to kill one another. Just to clarify, kill me any way you'd like so long as I don't have to sit there beforehand and discuss, at length, how it's done, then tally up a vote, work my way towards a compromise, shake hands and document everything with screenshots, then count to five. Just kill me or walk away if I have to be arsed to butcher the immersion with this ****.

It won't be that complicated. It won't be about compromises and tie-breakers. In larger fights, you might have to scroll in chat (Or, if it's a large number, use statuses.).

If the majority wants RP, it's RP

If it's a tie, or PvP-Majority, it's PvP

[zaezae 1098]

The only possible way an RP fight can last hours is if you are powergaming and either not allowing your character to mess up or you aren't roleplaying injuries.

[Joe_Blackman 253]

I really don't see how such a minor clarification (in my eyes), should irk those that are against it. It's most likely not going to have much of an effect on those that prefer PvP unless they enter elven land or land where the majority of the elven playerbase reside. We know that a majority of those that prefer RP default are either elven players or RP most of their time where the elven playerbase lays.

If those that prefer PvP are forced into a rp fight due the majority of combatants wanting rp, then the PvP can simply walk away or just die, you're not going to lose much, it'll just be a minor death. Heck, your items won't be taken from you most likely if you die to the majority of those who prefer RP default. Then again, I tend to forget egos and the lack of mentality to take a loss exist. 

Might add more to this rushed post. As I said before, I know the rp default extremists know better than to perform or participate in a 20+ RP fight.