Imbalance of Paladin magic

[Ventusyr 233]

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You are correct, paladins can use both voidal and holy magic. HOWEVER, a paladin who is connected to both the void and Xan will find themselves extremely weakened to the point of absolute uselessness. To my knowledge (This will need to be confirmed by Tsu or an LM), if they have a dual connection, they are only capable of T1-T2 in both magics. This limits them severely, and makes it so useless it is practically pointless. (So basically, if you use voidal magic you're so useless there is literally no point.)  Paladin healing is, however it is not made clear anywhere on the forums have very very weak healing in comparison to Clerics. However, on the matter of our capabilities and nothing being defined,you are correct, I don't believe we have anywhere on the forums where people can actually judge that. Though I'll assure you we have entirely stopped recruiting at the time being mainly for that reason. A guide is being worked on to be released so people can understand it fully.

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/118592-elads-characters/#comment-1135681

Haadi Mubdee is a Tier 5 in Illusion and Fire Evocation, a Tier 4 in Void Translocation, and Tier 1 in Xan Paladinism.

Crumena is part of three Voidal magics, including golemancy, while being a teacher for Xan Paladinism, so I assume they're a strong paladin.

Ryder submitted a teaching application for fire evocation, which, although taken down, does indicate they're a strong fire evocationist. They are also a teacher for Xan paladinism, again indicating they're strong paladins.

 

The Tier 1-2 rule for Voidal and Deity magics doesn't seem to apply to Xan paladins. If it is supposed to, that needs some serious enforcement. That is the rule that applies to clerics, and I assume Ascended now.

 

Garion healed an eye and I've watched paladins do healings of mortal wounds without breaking a sweat. Again, what is the extent of paladin healing capabilities? Is it, say, the equivalent of a Tier 3 cleric?

 

Amma agree with Mephistophelian here. Y'all need some lore, not just a guide, or a lore that doubles as a guide.

[DISCOLIQUID 2735]

The issue here is arising from two separate problems that I believe need to be addressed. 

1) The perceived strength of Arcane Shielding.

2) The nebulous nature of Xan magics.

In terms of the first one, I am going to say that you are likely under gaming arcane shielding. Arcane shielding does one singular thing, and that is is makes shields. The rule of thumb for a magic is that the less it does, the less offensive this goal is, and the more drawbacks the magic has, the more powerful the magic is allowed to be in accomplishing that goal. This can be seen in Fi'hiran'tanya: the magic does one singular thing, has no other applications outside of severing the connection of voidal or deity mages, and confers extreme weakness. Because of this, the magic is far, far more powerful than transfiguration, the other magic able to ward or weaken the use of magics. 

Arcane evocation outclasses the abilities of a mere shield. While the actual voidal shield may break easily, it can be recreated, and does not confer as much of a drain upon the mana pool of a mage using it versus a magic that creates something else, such as conjuration. It is a wholly defensive magic, and it should be good at being that. I will speak to BrandNewKitten and make sure the points here that I have made are correct, but they seem logical enough to me.

An issue that is perhaps related to this, is that no physical fighter has ever gotten tired in combat, which I find baffling. If you are carrying around a tower shield and wearing full armor and swinging a mace, and avoid any emotes of physical exhaustion in a longer fight, you are power gaming.

The second point is one that the MAT and LT are at fault for. We need to prioritize getting public guides posted for nebulous magics such as Xan Paladanism, Necromancy, and the rest of the magics without an updated guide. I cannot promise this is coming soon, but know that we will be working on it. (Soon™)

 

It seems BNK has already posted here. He's right in all of his claims.

Edited October 15, 2015 by DISCOLIQUID

[Mephistophelian 977]

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You are correct, paladins can use both voidal and holy magic. HOWEVER, a paladin who is connected to both the void and Xan will find themselves extremely weakened to the point of absolute uselessness. To my knowledge (This will need to be confirmed by Tsu or an LM), if they have a dual connection, they are only capable of T1-T2 in both magics. This limits them severely, and makes it so useless it is practically pointless. (So basically, if you use voidal magic you're so useless there is literally no point.)  Paladin healing is, however it is not made clear anywhere on the forums have very very weak healing in comparison to Clerics. However, on the matter of our capabilities and nothing being defined,you are correct, I don't believe we have anywhere on the forums where people can actually judge that. Though I'll assure you we have entirely stopped recruiting at the time being mainly for that reason. A guide is being worked on to be released so people can understand it fully.

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/118592-elads-characters/#comment-1135681

Haadi Mubdee is a Tier 5 in Illusion and Fire Evocation, a Tier 4 in Void Translocation, and Tier 1 in Xan Paladinism.

Crumena is part of three Voidal magics, including golemancy, while being a teacher for Xan Paladinism, so I assume they're a strong paladin.

Ryder submitted a teaching application for fire evocation, which, although taken down, does indicate they're a strong fire evocationist. They are also a teacher for Xan paladinism, again indicating they're strong paladins.

 

The Tier 1-2 rule for Voidal and Deity magics doesn't seem to apply to Xan paladins. If it is supposed to, that needs some serious enforcement. That is the rule that applies to clerics, and I assume Ascended now.

 

Garion healed an eye and I've watched paladins do healings of mortal wounds without breaking a sweat. Again, what is the extent of paladin healing capabilities? Is it, say, the equivalent of a Tier 3 cleric?

 

Amma agree with Mephistophelian here. Y'all need some lore, not just a guide, or a lore that doubles as a guide.

 

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/jon-stewart-oh-snap.gif

[Leric 1097]

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You are correct, paladins can use both voidal and holy magic. HOWEVER, a paladin who is connected to both the void and Xan will find themselves extremely weakened to the point of absolute uselessness. To my knowledge (This will need to be confirmed by Tsu or an LM), if they have a dual connection, they are only capable of T1-T2 in both magics. This limits them severely, and makes it so useless it is practically pointless. (So basically, if you use voidal magic you're so useless there is literally no point.)  Paladin healing is, however it is not made clear anywhere on the forums have very very weak healing in comparison to Clerics. However, on the matter of our capabilities and nothing being defined,you are correct, I don't believe we have anywhere on the forums where people can actually judge that. Though I'll assure you we have entirely stopped recruiting at the time being mainly for that reason. A guide is being worked on to be released so people can understand it fully.

https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/118592-elads-characters/#comment-1135681

Haadi Mubdee is a Tier 5 in Illusion and Fire Evocation, a Tier 4 in Void Translocation, and Tier 1 in Xan Paladinism.

Crumena is part of three Voidal magics, including golemancy, while being a teacher for Xan Paladinism, so I assume they're a strong paladin.

Ryder submitted a teaching application for fire evocation, which, although taken down, does indicate they're a strong fire evocationist. They are also a teacher for Xan paladinism, again indicating they're strong paladins.

 

The Tier 1-2 rule for Voidal and Deity magics doesn't seem to apply to Xan paladins. If it is supposed to, that needs some serious enforcement. That is the rule that applies to clerics, and I assume Ascended now.

 

Garion healed an eye and I've watched paladins do healings of mortal wounds without breaking a sweat. Again, what is the extent of paladin healing capabilities? Is it, say, the equivalent of a Tier 3 cleric?

 

Amma agree with Mephistophelian here. Y'all need some lore, not just a guide, or a lore that doubles as a guide.

 

This agreement was settled by LM's just over a week ago.  However, Haadi has been recently disconnected BECAUSE he didn't want the massive drawbacks to his voidal. Currently, he is just a person who is apart of the brotherhood but is not actually connected.  Crumena is someone you are entirely wrong about, as I just asked him in TS right now. Crumena is no longer affiliated in any voidal magic, so you would be incorrect yet again.  Ryder, to my knowledge no longer uses fire evocation as well. 

Again, 'Tier 1-2' rule was agreed upon by LM's 1 to 2 weeks ago, so people are still adjusting. Sorry I don't have an exact date that is was actually decided upon.  On the matters of healing, a T5 paladin who's primarily focused upon healing would likely have the strength comparable to a T3 cleric or lower. On the matter of lore, yes we /have/ lore that to my knowledge is available to LM's just not the public for whatever reason I don't know. For any further clarification on that matter you would have to ask Tsuyose himself or wait for his reply to this post.

[Tsuyose 3285]

The sword and armour isn't weightless, in fact, it weighs just the same as any other iron piece out there -- It is draining on the user to don the suit as it wavers over time; the lore isn't poorly documented at all. We are a busy lot, with school, work, and so on. An appropriate guide is in development.

 

I'll add onto the Haadi bit who, I might add, was disconnected; Xan demands service not worship, and so, they needn't pray. They can, but they don't have too. I too, would agree, that arcane shielding is stronger than the average Paladin shield. Then again, I've never seen a Paladin manifest a shield despite my time creating the Brotherhood.

[DISCOLIQUID 2735]

 

Haadi Mubdee is a Tier 5 in Illusion and Fire Evocation, a Tier 4 in Void Translocation, and Tier 1 in Xan Paladinism.

Elad's character was recently disconnected with the advent of these rules being enforced.

Crumena is part of three Voidal magics, including golemancy, while being a teacher for Xan Paladinism, so I assume they're a strong paladin.

Crumena is not a strong paladin, or a strong voidal mage. He teaches Palandinism, he is not powerful in it. 

Ryder submitted a teaching application for fire evocation, which, although taken down, does indicate they're a strong fire evocationist. They are also a teacher for Xan paladinism, again indicating they're strong paladins.

Ryder took this down after being talked to, and then dropped fire evocation to focus on Paladanism.

 

The Tier 1-2 rule for Voidal and Deity magics doesn't seem to apply to Xan paladins. If it is supposed to, that needs some serious enforcement. That is the rule that applies to clerics, and I assume Ascended now.

It does, now. I am enforcing it to the best of my ability.

 

Garion healed an eye and I've watched paladins do healings of mortal wounds without breaking a sweat. Again, what is the extent of paladin healing capabilities? Is it, say, the equivalent of a Tier 3 cleric?

I would say a Tier 4 Paladin has Tier 2 Clerical Healing, and a Tier 5 has Tier 3.

 

Amma agree with Mephistophelian here. Y'all need some lore, not just a guide, or a lore that doubles as a guide.

Yes.

Points answered within the quote.

[Ventusyr 233]

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https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/118592-elads-characters/#comment-1135681

Haadi Mubdee is a Tier 5 in Illusion and Fire Evocation, a Tier 4 in Void Translocation, and Tier 1 in Xan Paladinism.

Crumena is part of three Voidal magics, including golemancy, while being a teacher for Xan Paladinism, so I assume they're a strong paladin.

Ryder submitted a teaching application for fire evocation, which, although taken down, does indicate they're a strong fire evocationist. They are also a teacher for Xan paladinism, again indicating they're strong paladins.

 

The Tier 1-2 rule for Voidal and Deity magics doesn't seem to apply to Xan paladins. If it is supposed to, that needs some serious enforcement. That is the rule that applies to clerics, and I assume Ascended now.

 

Garion healed an eye and I've watched paladins do healings of mortal wounds without breaking a sweat. Again, what is the extent of paladin healing capabilities? Is it, say, the equivalent of a Tier 3 cleric?

 

Amma agree with Mephistophelian here. Y'all need some lore, not just a guide, or a lore that doubles as a guide.

 

This agreement was settled by LM's just over a week ago.  However, Haadi has been recently disconnected BECAUSE he didn't want the massive drawbacks to his voidal. Currently, he is just a person who is apart of the brotherhood but is not actually connected.  Crumena is someone you are entirely wrong about, as I just asked him in TS right now. Crumena is no longer affiliated in any voidal magic, so you would be incorrect yet again.  Ryder, to my knowledge no longer uses fire evocation as well. 

Again, 'Tier 1-2' rule was agreed upon by LM's 1 to 2 weeks ago, so people are still adjusting. Sorry I don't have an exact date that is was actually decided upon.  On the matters of healing, a T5 paladin who's primarily focused upon healing would likely have the strength comparable to a T3 cleric or lower. On the matter of lore, yes we /have/ lore that to my knowledge is available to LM's just not the public for whatever reason I don't know. For any further clarification on that matter you would have to ask Tsuyose himself or wait for his reply to this post.

Ah, my apologies. I was going off of the forum posts and MAT list of magic users/MAT apps. Wasn't aware of the recent changes. I'm glad it is being enforced now!

[Mephistophelian 977]

The sword and armour isn't weightless, in fact, it weighs just the same as any other iron piece out there -- It is draining on the user to don the suit as it wavers over time; the lore isn't poorly documented at all. We are a busy lot, with school, work, and so on. An appropriate guide is in development.

 

I'll add onto the Haadi bit who, I might add, was disconnected; Xan demands service not worship, and so, they needn't pray. They can, but they don't have too. I too, would agree, that arcane shielding is stronger than the average Paladin shield. Then again, I've never seen a Paladin manifest a shield despite my time creating the Brotherhood.

The lore is not visible to anyone but the LT, Tsu. That's poor documentation, in all its technicalities. As for the weightless items; it has been done. Yes, the lore might not allow it, but it has been done. Why? Perhaps because no one can see the lore and thus argue against the items being weightless. Other than that, I do not know. As for the healing, Hesh is right...It has been done with little effort, and healed as well as a Tah Cleric.

I understand you know the lore off by heart, man. You probably know it better than anyone else...But what is on paper and what is being done is clearly different from what you are saying. Thusly, I believe the lore should be made public, rewritten to be more balanced and a proper guide is given for it. It's not needed immediately, it is just needed soon. Perhaps the first bit could be allowing the lore to be visible to us normal folk?

[Tsuyose 3285]

Well, Hugo, the lore is up for immediate grabs in the Paladin chat and always has been. I can't do something if nobody reports something dodgy with a Paladin; like I said an appropriate guide - including lore - is in development right now. 

[DISCOLIQUID 2735]

The guide is underway. The MAT and the LT and Tsu are trying to get a guide and lore published. It will happen, we're all just busy, myself with college, others with their lives.

Edited October 15, 2015 by DISCOLIQUID

[Ventusyr 233]

Well, Hugo, the lore is up for immediate grabs in the Paladin chat and always has been. I can't do something if nobody reports something dodgy with a Paladin; like I said an appropriate guide - including lore - is in development right now. 

We didn't know it was dodgy, we just thought the magic was incredibly stronk :/

 

Again, good to hear a public document is being worked on. For the time being, perhaps post the previous existing lore on the forums, so that people know what to sort of expect from Paladins in RP, even if the specifics are still not there?

[Mephistophelian 977]

Well, Hugo, the lore is up for immediate grabs in the Paladin chat and always has been. I can't do something if nobody reports something dodgy with a Paladin; like I said an appropriate guide - including lore - is in development right now. 

I'm talking about people who aren't paladins. Herein lies the problem, expressed by you without realising it; No outsiders can see the lore. Yes, it may be up for grabs to the paladins in the chat, but no one else can see it. We can't report anything dodgy about Paladins if we have nothing to compare it against.

If, for example, Necromancy lore was available to necromancers on the necromancer chat, do you think anyone would report a necromancer claiming they can make a sword of bones and have it talk like a human being? It's a ridiculous example, but I am sure some people would just go with it if they didn't have public lore available to refer to. My issue lie in the vagueness of what paladins can do, and it isn't only me who has this issue. We're on a chat dedicated to fixing it.

[DISCOLIQUID 2735]

Well, Hugo, the lore is up for immediate grabs in the Paladin chat and always has been. I can't do something if nobody reports something dodgy with a Paladin; like I said an appropriate guide - including lore - is in development right now. 

We didn't know it was dodgy, we just thought the magic was incredibly stronk :/

 

Again, good to hear a public document is being worked on. For the time being, perhaps post the previous existing lore on the forums, so that people know what to sort of expect from Paladins in RP, even if the specifics are still not there?

I'll talk to Tsu and see if we can't draft a 3 paragraph quick guide tonight. 

[Tsuyose 3285]

I disagree, Sythan, if one were in the LT chat you'd see a different light to it entirely. There's no bias in it at all, they aren't even partaking in the development of the magic so I really, really don't see where one would garner the notion of LM bias.

 

And don't get me wrong, but, it's actually quite harder for us to lead considering we've got other duties to perform which takes priority over the Paladins alongside our IRL lives -- it gives us less time to interact with the Brotherhood and this has been a problem that's stagnating the Paladins for a short while now, which we're hoping to fix. The Paladins are undergoing change.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Tsuyose

[Leric 1097]

Ordinary stock Paladin's are basically War Cleric tier. Go figure. I know they're meant to have less healy power, but in reality, a lot of paladins I've seen heal have cleric tier healing anyway. It's like they're actively trying to make clerics useless. And I have heard about how Tsuyose (And a couple other LM's) wanted to get rid of clerics altogether.

 

With this being said the argument was, there are far more clerics than paladins yet paladins are much more effective. And that the cleric leadership isn't as good. This is quite true, apart from the fact there are far more active Paladin's than Clerics. Not to mention;

It is fairly irritating for you to go off on this tangent for everyone to see when I believe we settled this in a skype chat.  I disagree heavily with you, being probably in my opinion the most active paladin who practically wanders everywhere (minus the orcs because I don't want to get pvp defaulted) looking for stuff to do. I can confidently say that there are far more active clerics than there are paladins, and please don't say that because you don't even know how minimal our numbers really are. It's just I believe that: You guys don't do anything ,be it poor leadership or not, I see a heavy lack of clerics actually being useful and doing what their patron wills them to. I don't see them going out of their way to find things to do; even when you guys are quite literally served an event line on a platter you don't do anything. Example, the clerics were supposed to be protecting the harvesters during the world event line with Gazardiael,  and yet, I saw very very few actually doing so when plenty of them were active. To me, it looked like they didn't care. Where as with the paladins, myself being the person who mostly led them throughout this event, we actively seeked information each day trying to find out who they were in rp. And eventually we found all four of them.  The clerics go off on the excuse of 'not knowing who they were', and that seems like pure laziness. Neither did the Paladins, but we put the effort into it to find out.

Clerics: 1 ET, 1 new LM and an inactive LM and inactive LM/GM.
Paladins: Lore admin, Admin, LM, 2 GM's and 2 ET's. 

We have 1 lore admin, 1 admin, and 1 Et. Unless I'm tripping at 2:30 in the morning which is highly likely, we don't have any gms.

aWW