The Agenda, and more!

[Narthok 10416]

Have the staff considered sitting down with the actual merchant rpers of lotc to discuss changes to the economy?

[Vasemir 16]

Reworking economics! I intended to make a topic about it, but I holded back because of my inexperience on this server and comments like that (which made me feel like I'm just missing something).

On 26.03.2016 at 11:04 AM, Arctic_Guard said:

I for one am fascinated with LotC's economy. I've actually written up an entire document outlining how it functions as it is not broken at all, but living.

But now I think I can say that economy is broken as ****. It's like the worst thing that happened to economics since Engels met Marks.

 

 

3 hours ago, Pandan said:

If you’ve got any more suggestions/concerns then throw a comment below, I’d love to hear what you think of this idea and how you feel it could be used to benefit you, the playerbase.

So here we go.

 

Inflantion is probably the most blatant flaw of this mechanic. If money appear "from nowwhere" there should be also a way that they "just disappear" - of course in uneven rates, so that community grow rich, but slow.

Second thing that occurs to a player when one look on money toplist is that if there are players so wealthy and they're still getting wealthier day by day, that means there's not really much to do with this money after you build yourself a house, equip yourself and fulfill other rather common needs.

 

I think of one solution that could solve those problems (of course partially, because there is no one magic feature that could heal so complex system) - an upkeep. I'm pretty sure someone sometime had a similar idea in past years, but maybe there's different team now, different attitude, maybe it wasn't possible back then...
Either way, this should 1) easily let money flow back to the system; 2) make expanding regions harder (not like nowadays "Meh, I'll just gather ppl on the forum and build a city in the wilderness, because why not"); 3) require some actual managing from leaders/regions owners. Point 2. should make two virtues follow: first of all, having enormous lands under your control will actually mean something and second - because it would be harder, there will be just less settlements and as such there will be actually living.

So of course elementary problem with designing an upkeep would be creating proper costs. I believe it should be related, of course, to size of controlled region. One may say that if costs depend on surface, then players could cut their costs by building high buildings with small surface and thus have more cheap space in total. Yup, maybe - I see it, but I don't consider it as some heavy flaw, because the most impressive buildings of representative nature still would require large surfaces and when it comes to just homes, It would be just fine to have many close neighbours as it profits in numer of interactions and developing relations with them on everyday basis.

 

Now best way to suck out money from the system would be make this cost only in minas and in large amounts of them. However, if you want to repair other branches of economy, you can't just leave professions as they are now because most of them are considered useless, as I understood from many comments and questions in game and my own observations of auctions, transactions and forum. And so you can make proper use of stonemasons (and so - miners) and woodworkers (and so - lumberjack), maybe even chef (plus fisher, farmer, breeder...). Whole thing (however born from another need) is based on idea of decay - time is passing, wooden boards rots, stone bricks crumbles, clothes are getting used up, goverments need new paper and books etc. etc. Those things require repairs and so except for minas (needed to pay off workers) resources may be needed - little amounts of cobblestone, planks, stone bricks, maybe even new items made exactly for this purpose (wooden hinges, nails, tools and so on). I don't think food should be included in here, but maybe it would have to so that chef profession keeps up with rest.

 

Of course everything depends on how complex this kind of system should be. For example, it could be as simple as one owner paying just minas for his lands. But it could also be more complicated and - as such - interesting and supporting roleplay. What I have in mind that smaller, simpler regions (just regions) would require only minas and just basic, easier to collect resources like cobblestone and wooden planks (and as such, It would be rather easy to simply collect taxes and I think both cobblestone and wood don't require much effort). Now when it comes to larger structures (nations) it could require a little amount of minas (as those were mostly already paid by regions included), but more sophisticated goods - glass, chiseled stone blocks, advanced tools, meals, mechanisms, you get the idea. Those things probably won't be acquirable for small communities like villages, monasteries and such and there is no point in making game too hard for common players. However, if someone is aspiring to lead a nation, then he should organize his people - if not craftsmans, then merchants dealing with other nations or villages. And it's not like glass or meal is so hard to get...

 

As I've said, idea is based on concept of decay. Now it would be nice to represent it somehow, because if this system will be implemented it will also need some kind of consequences if upkeep was not paid. Perfect would be decay like from game Rust, but I don't think it's possible. However, It could be possible to set automatic deletetion of random blocks from the region for every hour after deadline - so would be slow decay day after day if there are no active players. Of course some blocks should be excluded from decay or just be deleted lastly (things like chests, workstations, armor stands etc.).

 

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about some high costs - rather "just costs" that will suck out some minas from the circulation, wake up economic and make use of professions in new way.

 

Now I believe it would greatly benefit interactions, roleplay, economics and usefulness of professions. I also believe that those things are completely doable; however, I'm not arguing if they are actually for an effort that would be required. It's up to the team.

 

So let's get to my second concern - if there's really nothing interesting to do with minas.

As I understand, there were many lands, many forgotten races, cultures and simply there simply are still unknown beings of different kinds. It could be easily used for making some purchases avaible. No matter what lore you put behind it (foreign merchants, crazy NPC, strange AenguDaemon), you could make some features avaible for all players at real high price (I'm talking tens and hundreds thousands minas) - things like shop, fireworks, custom items (still requiring mod acceptation so that they won't be vulgar and keep RP standards). Even if donating system was to be the same, I see no reason why things that are avaible for money should not be avaible in-game. You know - it's the most fair deal: making everything completely achievable in-game, but just very easy to get for real money.

 

 

The marketplace is bad idea. Even if prices would fluctuate due to supply and demand, It works against roleplay and player-player interactions - like every single bot-NPC does. It's artifical and not needed; even todays auctions, no matter how useful and user-friendly they are, could absolutely be handled by players - and instead of some merchant guilds, trading community in some place being world's trade center full of shops and regular auctions-events we have six NPCs in the carport.

Don't get me wrong - It will work, people will use it... But it will hurt roleplay and every merchant, craftsman and probably even thief and robber character.

 

 

Edit:

I forgot... please, delete those free food from /bread and burgers dropping from heaven! What's the point of making chef profession if even fully grinding miner could leave without any "food-maker" - and live well? Of course it's ok for new players, but that command should not be avaible after week or two.

[The Real Burger 20]

The economy is pretty much broken because how useless every other profession is.

[aron. 427]

Here's my 2 cents; I'll keep it brief. 

 

When I was rolling on 120k minas, there wasn't a thing I didn't buy. I'd pay 500 minas for a 2 mina beer. I hired a table guy, and payed him a 2500mina  weekly salary. I had farmers, lumberjacks, maids, and guards. Pretty much, if you walked up to me and asked for a job, I'd find you some bullshit busy work, and pay you for it. My reasoning was, when I started the server, Redbaron and Agnub did the same for me. Me and my 2 mates show up in Salvus, and they gave me the farming job, my one friend the librarian job, and my other friend the job as head guard. like, **** ya. 

 

Here's my point; what drives an economy? Jobs. If you don't have **** for people to do, people wont do ****. Find stuff for the plebians to buy with their money (food is worthless at this point), and start holding the nation leader accountable for creating roleplay. 

 

edit: but good on ya' for addressing it. You'll never make the economy into something functional, but you can at least mold it into something conducive to good rp. 

[xDK 1205]

 

You have to start somewhere I suppose.

[Readicti 902]

On 3/31/2016 at 8:05 AM, Kowaman said:

Neat.

I wonder if this will create some interesting power dynamics between GMs, as some are team leaders but are 'managed' by another GM.

Cool post. Many words. No tl;dr. 

Really though, we know you posted so you could spread your AMA to more people ;3

[Daisy 9738]

9 hours ago, Readicti said:

Cool post. Many words. No tl;dr. 

Really though, we know you posted so you could spread your AMA to more people ;3

what...?

[shimmeringbliss 268]

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 5:16 AM, Vasemir said:

 

  Points - Inflation, Upkeep, Marketplace, Job inequality

 

I think what most people say here have very good points, and if you dont mind I would like to join in the conversation as well! I feel Vasemir started out with a very good outlining in reference to real economics. 

 

 

 

Upkeep

I think what Vasemir says is very good! Money does not have a wide array of use, therefore there is no incentive to earn it. Nation leaders can 'gift' land and sell land at their own discretion, thereby going about most charters. I dont even know how much you have to pay for war, but I assume its a small amount (Since Tristin never complains about it!). 

 

I think having an upkeep cost is a really good way to show people the realism involved, you know. Your house needs repairs every so often, it doesn't stay in its pristine white paint forever :P 

 

But the problem with creating a 'functional'  economy is that it expects the players to 'live' in this world, and that can be at times difficult. Can a economy function without forcing players to sink vast amounts of time into the server? 

 

If every town was required to pay an upkeep based on their land or buildings (chartered or not), you can expect places with dozens of smaller settlements like Oren to eventually shrink and condense! But would it make us happier? I dont know. I think I would like having a neat castle of my own that I can show off once I finish building it. I gathered the material myself, why do I have to 'pay' for an upkeep? 

 

Job inequality

Supply and demand inequality also contributes greatly to players unable to generate their own income. If you think about it, the only 'profitable' profession a new player can do is mining, same with any other minecraft server!

 

• Blacksmithing is for the rich
• Alchemy is for the rich and rp purposes as potions are not a commodity
• Breeding requires being friends with large regions
• Farming requires being friends with large regions and is generally useless since /bread
• Chef is murdered by /bread
• Fishing gives you caskets, and raiding powers....?
• Lumberjacking is actually an okay profession, since many structures need wood, and it gives alchemy drops!
• Tinkering is for........ I dont know? War? Its so...... specialized that no one really needs it. You can grind gunpowder, but it doesn't actually make much money apart from selling alchemy stands
• Enchanting is for the rich, like smithing
• Woodworking is okay for bow making, but general wooden furniture is almost never traded. 
• Stonemasons are for...... Nice stones? You only need 1 stonemason at a very low level just to make aesthetic blocks. 
• Mining is great! 

 

You can see the barrier for entry is actually really, really, really difficult for some of these professions, and that the more player friendly ones are almost completely useless. It leaves people in a strange spot, of having a useless profession at a high skill level (I had Aengulic chef because I didn't have anything else to level), or you have a useful profession at such a low level no one wants to consider your equipment (Low level blacksmithing is sad). 

 

There needs to be a demand for each level of profession, something that might take longer but is just as useful as the end products. For blacksmiths, you would only really consider shopping for weapons. Except you would always shop from the best, as Cosmicwhaleshark tells me! So lower tiered smiths get no sales, and its a form of monopoly by the top tiered smiths. 

 

So what the lower tier smiths needs is something they can produce that is also feasible, but not in direct competition to the top tiered smiths! Maybe something as a ingredient to something, 20 hours for a steel bar or whatever. Then the top tiered smiths will now agree to buy steel bars from lower smiths, on the basis of they can make more by turning steel bars into swords, then take 15 hours in making their own steel bars. 

 

If this logic can be applied to the rest of the professions (sorry Chef, I think your profession is doomed beyond help), you could open the doors to more people willing to engage in the economy. 

 

But the barrier of entry for certain professions really need to go. All professions should theoretically be able to done without being apart of any region, to help newer characters out. 

 

Inflation

I dont feel that money coming in via competitions, voting, has a substantial impact on the economy. Every vote gives roughly 10 minas, so 5 votes a day would average out to 50 minas a day, which isn't a whole lot when you compare to the people with 100k in their banks, as Chumpchump has said that there actually isn't enough 'money' floating around to be used. 

 

But the idea of using 'minas' to purchase special unique things like item description is a really good one, since its creating value for the people with minas, and motivation for people to make more minas! Its less about inflation, and more about the gap between the rich and the poor and possibly the unwillingness of the rich to spend, furthering the imbalance. 

 

Marketplace

I will have to disagree with you here, Vasemir. Think of the base standard prices that the GM shop has as the US currency. It is a standard that the rest of the world abides by. Everything is measured in accordance to it. Merchants will regulate themselves by not oversupplying goods and products, if there is an infinite supply at a certain rate. A merchant would therefore never sell 'higher' than what the GM shop offers, and they wont sell it too far from the GM shop offers, since it is standard. 

 

The price of iron is 2 minas now. It used to be 10 minas many months ago. Oversupply lead to the 80% drop price. But if there was a shop that sold an infinite number of iron at 8 minas, merchants would usually sell at 5-7 minas if they want to maximize profit over the long term. There is no reason to sell so far under, since it just cuts further into their profit margins. And now that they have a standard, they can tell consumers "Look, I am already selling below the market price. You cant really stray from the standard 8 minas". This is of course assuming that the merchants will act that way, but some anarchist merchant my just sell at 1 minas because she doesn't care for the prices (Halflings are sometimes like that). 

 

What the GM market needs to do apart from just 'providing' the material, is also to 'acquire' them back too, at a far lower margin. So you have a price ceiling and a price floor. If the GM shop buys back at 2 minas per iron, iron will never drop below 2 minas per ingot. So your ceiling is 8, your floor is 2, and that would create an economy around 3-7 minas between players. 

 

If you want to get really technical, one could manipulate the stocks of the GM shops instead of infinite supply, example where when the GM shop only has 100 ingots left, it raises the price for both buying and selling. So merchants can choose when to sell, when to buy. It would be a very basic model of the real world market, but I feel that this would require too much handling and care instead of an automated system :P 

 

 

I can confidently say that a working economy has been a test for Laureh'lin about 8 months ago, except the funding dried up, but it did provide some semblance of activity when people were given the option to try and make money. We had a city shop, that bought and sold goods based on the taxes we collected. Residents could trade their goods for money to pay their taxes. And it worked. Until it didn't. People from other cities were depleting our funds by selling massively into it, and we only had 1.3k per week to spend. Also Tristin doesn't like giving me money to give away D:

 

[Vasemir 16]

7 hours ago, shimmeringbliss said:

Marketplace

But I completely understand this mechanic and I said - It most probably will work and be used. My concern is about its effect on roleplay side of economy - after all, It's RP server.

[shimmeringbliss 268]

16 minutes ago, Vasemir said:

But I completely understand this mechanic and I said - It most probably will work and be used. My concern is about its effect on roleplay side of economy - after all, It's RP server.

The thing is, what you are proposing affects only the people who sell these goods in mass quantities. 

 

The pros of this system is that small producers of iron, who only sell 10-60 ingots, benefit greatly from the minimal effort they put in place.

 

However people who sell 60 blocks of iron, will be the ones affected the most, as they cant 'drive' the market in the direction they choose. It has always been a trend that sooner or later the price of iron will fall, as more and more people turn iron into tools which in turn produce iron.

 

So having a ceiling and floor for prices isn't a bad thing in the slightest, I would argue it is a good thing as

 

• It provides a constant income to sellers who cant find buyers/cant be bothered to find buyers (I have had tremendous difficulty in meeting people to trade ingame due to timezones)
• It provides a set income for people who are trying to sell. When the value of iron continues to plummet, the value of things go down as well as iron is the current standard for prices. A piece of bread is 0.5 minas, and iron is 2 minas. So technically 4 bread makes 1 iron. That exchange doesn't sit well with people. If you increase the price of iron to 8 minas, the price of bread goes up due to inflation., giving more value to other professions as well.

 

Although one can say that due to inflation nothing changes at all, but it would make getting charters easier, paying people easier (100k is actually not a lot of money if you want to pay someone consistently at a decent price. 10 guards at 200 minas a week means 2k a week easily as a base salary) . Having a higher price will give a larger sense of satisfaction to most players, as you would almost always choose to be paid 200 minas in a world where iron is 8 minas, as compared to 50 minas in a world where iron is 2 minas. Because the value of other goods is related, but not directly proportional. 

 

tl;dr, It doesn't directly affect the enjoyment of the merchant class. Its a new system for them to be adjusted in, and it stabilizes the market to prevent outrageous price wars that kills the enjoyment of other players. The controlled market also allows for a quicker 'get-rich' scheme in a way, as there is an higher intrinsic value instead of being subjugated to market forces.

 

Think of the GM market as socialism, where certain commodities are controlled to prevent exploitation from major companies to protect the interests of others as a whole. I'd like to pose this as an open question to major merchant players, does having a GM controlled market for commodities such as food and metals detract from your enjoyment? 

[Elindor 666]

This should be its own post, but I am not active enough to monitor responses so I'm slopping it down here like a lazy old man.

I have been giving investments some thought. I can see some ways in which a simple stock market can exist, however the line of uncertainty I foresee is the selfishness that stems from what exists now. If you own a company that is making money you have money. In order to have others invest in said company there is an obligation on that individual to surrender sole control over funds and accept a small packet from which to live on. Theoretically it is easy enough. I just don't believe that our players will accept the necessary fail-safes required for investing in businesses. That as a precursory warning, here is what my thoughts have conjured.

 

The Safe Investment

Correct me if I am wrong, but the banking system exists globally. There may be other independent banks that act as safe deposits, but the bank is everywhere always. So the simplest investment a player can make is in the bank. I believe that in the establishment of a system like this the staff would want to avoid a total market collapse. So almost solely for that point, an investment in the bank can only lose small percentages of money.

 

All players have a bank account, but with an initial balance transfer of 1000 mina and minimum transfers of 100mina thereafter (there's no point in accepting lower seen as the bank requires funds of itself in order to 'function' and if you accept all deposit sizes then you might as well just be giving everyone interest already because the purpose of investing is lost) an investment account can be opened at the bank. This is for personal banking only as it requires interacting with the bank. As is further detailed below, business to business investment is done through the business' settings and not the bank.

 

If the public bank for a day of trading has increased in global balance (let's just call a day 24 hours but it could be adjusted to in-game time at smaller increments) then all investment accounts increase balance by 0.2%. If the bank has lost money in that trading day then the balance lost is 0.2%. That looks like an unfair loss, but the bank should be ever increasing as more players are continuing to earn, so I would anticipate that the banks trading should rarely equate debit.

 

 

Sole Trader to Business Owner

The fulcrum of an investment system is the differentiation between someone who has a business to make themselves money, and those who are trying to make serious cheddar. Whether the small shop owner has some partners that want to own the business together for security, or if they want to become fatcats of the business world by benefiting from the investments of others, the big jump is to set up a business account.

 

Business Accounts can have multiple users and has customisable interactivity. The account can accept balance transfers from a bank account and links directly to shop(s). Designated "stakeholders" can make use of these funds. When the business account is first made, that player is the account's administrator and they can either make all stakeholders have the administrative powers over the account, or limit their activities in other ways. Through the customisation of the account's interactivity you can manage your business the way you want without running the risk of having everything stolen. Or you can be very trusting.

 

Adding stakeholders is the account administrator's power. For each stakeholder the administrator decides:

Granting administrative power over the account, otherwise defaulting to 'no'

Capping their daily withdrawal limit, otherwise defaulting at the global cap

The percentage of account worth that they can invest with (into other investments not this business), the default being 'no'

 

Able to be changed by an administrator is:

The above, at any time

The percentage of ownership in the company to all stakeholders, otherwise defaulting to an equal portion for all

Opening up the business for investment

Filing for bankruptcy

 

(This may be taking things too far but I'll include it anyway) As an additional layer of precaution, for accounts that have multiple administrators you can prevent major changes being made to the account's policies by one user by engaging a "permission required". When Permission Required is turned to 'yes' it can be decided how many administrator's must approve, from 2 - ALL (the first being the person doing it). Anyone seeking to change these administrative policies can do so, however the changes will not be active until other administrator's place their approval. They will be met instantly (or upon logging in) with a Y/N dialogue regarding the setting changed.

 

A global limit on daily withdrawals must be implemented at (for example) 10,000 minas per player to prevent the investment system from being cheated. If a business wanted to withdraw all funds they could file for bankruptcy which would pay out after 24 hours to the business stakeholders according to their percentage owned. If the business has investors then the bankruptcy will pay out to investors first and if funds remain they will be distributed to stakeholders accordingly.

 

With a business account you you can take your brand to the next level. Included in each stakeholder's daily withdrawals is an automatic pay system whereby any employee can receive a wage to their personal bank account at regular intervals (hourly, daily, weekly). Stakeholders can also use the business funds (if permitted by account administrator) to invest in other businesses. While a player loses their money as long as it is tied up in an investment, a business keeps their money in the business account while it is being invested in something else, receiving real-time updates. (example: your business is worth 100 mina, you invest 20 mina somewhere else, the next morning your investment has grown by 5 mina and your business worth is now shown as 125 mina). This means that there can exist a beautiful and fragile circle of big business investments between each-other that can make money quick, but can just as easily come crumbling down in a hurry.

 

 

Enter Equity

If a business wants to take on investors all they have to do is turn it on in their business account and set up a stock salesman. This is an NPC that provides potential investors with information on the value of your business at 0:00 on any date as well as offering customisable sales pitches. If they know the name of your business they can also invest at any bank.

 

Investors can only grow your business worth. But if you mismanage your business you may find some angry people knocking on your door when their investments are worth diddly.

 

 

Show Me The Money

Investors make money only when selling their share. When you invest in a company your minas goes into that business account. You can track what is happening with your investment either at the company's stock salesman, or by investigating your investment at any bank. This will tell you: the current value of business worth, what you bought in for, and the portion that you now own in minas.

 

Your portion is calculated by what percentage you bought in for, against the current value. The percentage you bought in for is a constant. If the business worth was 10,000 mina and you invested 5,000 your portion is 0.33333. Whatever happens to the business you can sell your investment and get a third of it.

Investor Portion = Investment / (Business Value + Investment)

 

If a company files for bankruptcy when its value is owned by investors (which, though unlikely, is the best thing to do for your investors so that nobody gets left with 0) the portion is recalculated. You will get paid out according to the worth of the business at a new rate.

Bankrupt Payout = Investor Portion / Total Portions

If total investor portions total less than 1 (100%) then investors are paid out on their original portion and remaining funds are distributed amongst stakeholders.

 

 

There's a fair bit in there, but in reality it is actually a very dumbed down way of investing, as well as allowing running a business to be easier and more intuitive. The added stability to running a business is required for investments to work, otherwise it will just be fake investment opportunities opening and closing with quick dirty deals going on.