fighting evil by moonlight 455 Share Posted April 29, 2018 So many people responded to my Frost Witch Community Survey from around two weeks ago that I decided to post the results on the forum instead of send everything through Discord. So, without further delay, here is a monologue… followed by the results (some of) you have been waiting for. First of all, to everyone that participated in our community survey, thank you so much! Anyone in Frost Witch chat knows that my favorite thing to do is make surveys, and this one was particularly useful! We received 58 responses in total, all of which were from people who do not currently play a Frost Witch. Originally, I made this survey in response to a couple of Frost Witch members being unsatisfied with the new appearance of Frost Witches. Although the overwhelming majority of Frost Witch players are in favor of a thematic change from “cute ice girl” to “actual scary monster”, there were a couple that resisted. For context, see the spoiler below. (Edited by Gabuette! ♥) Spoiler http://prntscr.com/jbg2zi I wanted to see what the community thought, and overall you seem to agree that Frost Witches are far too social (65.5%), cutesy (63.8%)... and yes, embarrassing (48.3%). As the lore holder and Frostie MT member, it does break my heart to see the current state of our reputation. It is my hope that the rewrite (Coming Soon™) will help forge a better relationship between the lore and the community. Let’s put the “Witch” back in “Frost Witch”, friends. I have to admit that my own RP has part of the problem with Frost Witches, as I’ve abused the vaguely written lore in the past. However, I’ve been trying to take steps in my own RP to make changes that will hopefully encourage others to do the same. Furthermore, the rewrite will introduce mechanic changes that encourage people to abandon the “Slice of Life” way of RPing their Witch. Ultimately, we’ve forgotten, as a group, that Frost Witches are villains, and it is our responsibility as villains to provide dynamic and interesting RP for our victims. When you choose to roleplay a creature of any kind, your roleplay should bring something new to the server instead of just allow you to play a (wait for it-- this is a favorite of LT/MT chat) “Recolored Wood Elf” with special magic. Several people commented on particular players being an issue. In response, I’d urge you all to contact a member of the Magic Team (or me, hi, I’m the Frostie rep) if any Frost Witch is acting inappropriately or against the lore. I cannot blindly accuse people without proof, so please screenshot any issues that you find and I’ll make sure that they are dealt with. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be punished -- so please, if you have any questions or doubts about the way that someone is roleplaying, talk to someone. This goes for any roleplay -- the Magic Team and Lore Team are all here to moderate lore. Please use this to your advantage. The second biggest complaint from the survey is how many Witches FTB with men. I completely understand the sentiment, and respect people that choose to RP their Witch as strict man haters, but will not be forcing this change explicitly in the rewrite. However, a similar issue is being addressed. To preview the rewrite, click the spoiler below. I hope that this change will encourage more dynamic RP without preventing people from forming friendships and yes, relationships, with those outside of the coven. Spoiler Witches struggle to maintain and forge deep friendships with those outside of their coven, and are naturally skeptical of any outsiders. Her hunger for flesh is volatile, and at any moment, could force her into an unstoppable assault on the nearest male. This reaction is often called “going feral”, and happens when a Witch has gone an extended amount of time without feeding. The issue with limiting the nature of relationships that can be formed is that it does limit roleplay along with it. We saw this with the implementation of Ivojurs, who were only capable of forming deep friendships with those within the coven. Only one Ivojur was ever made because the roleplay was unappealing and difficult. That Ivojur did have problems staying interested in their character because of that rule, so I will not be forcing it onto the entire community. In practice, limiting RP relationships (romantic or otherwise), just… well, limits RP. Lastly, I’d like to talk about the last couple of questions on the survey! We did eliminate the traditional “create and manipulate ice” abilities for Frost Witches in the rewrite, but replaced them with spells that we think will create more dynamic RP. The spell list addresses the most common ways of manipulating ice (projectiles/crowd control/snowball fights…) while introducing some neat new mechanics. Overall, it’s my hope that it’ll make Frosties easier to interact with and more enticing to play thematically. Current Witches seem to like the spell list after having seen it… Although I completely understand apprehension without any context. Originally, I was going to show the rewrite to those who asked before it was posted, but it looks like it’s going to be posted veeery soon. Also, there were 58 of you, and more than half wanted to see it. Unfortunately, that means you’re going to have to wait. If you have any questions, though, I’d love to take them in this thread! Thank you so much again! Spoiler We will be recruiting after the release of the rewrite, so if you're interested in Witch RP, I would love to talk to you. Feel free to PM me, or any other Witch Mother, on the forums for more information! 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Archipelego 2188 Share Posted April 29, 2018 splendid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone 869 Share Posted April 29, 2018 I am in love with that context image, reminds me of a shark in the midst of hunting with the blank eyes and huge grin full of teeth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting evil by moonlight 455 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Aelsioln said: I am in love with that context image, reminds me of a shark in the midst of hunting with the blank eyes and huge grin full of teeth. All @gab :) Thank you so much! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm420 186 Share Posted April 30, 2018 This is great good work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGP 3169 Share Posted April 30, 2018 4 hours ago, fighting evil by moonlight said: The second biggest complaint from the survey is how many Witches FTB with men. I completely understand the sentiment, and respect people that choose to RP their Witch as strict man haters, but will not be forcing this change explicitly in the rewrite. However, a similar issue is being addressed. To preview the rewrite, click the spoiler below. I hope that this change will encourage more dynamic RP without preventing people from forming friendships and yes, relationships, with those outside of the coven. Reveal hidden contents Witches struggle to maintain and forge deep friendships with those outside of their coven, and are naturally skeptical of any outsiders. Her hunger for flesh is volatile, and at any moment, could force her into an unstoppable assault on the nearest male. This reaction is often called “going feral”, and happens when a Witch has gone an extended amount of time without feeding. The issue with limiting the nature of relationships that can be formed is that it does limit roleplay along with it. We saw this with the implementation of Ivojurs, who were only capable of forming deep friendships with those within the coven. Only one Ivojur was ever made because the roleplay was unappealing and difficult. That Ivojur did have problems staying interested in their character because of that rule, so I will not be forcing it onto the entire community. In practice, limiting RP relationships (romantic or otherwise), just… well, limits RP. If this is going to remain the case, then the creation lore for frost witches needs to be re-written. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatpyrodude 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Hope you guys hit up my boy @Cruz ©, he filled it out and told me he was super interested in playing another frostie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiumSedai 5750 Share Posted April 30, 2018 While I am not a frost witch player personally, I've taken the survey as someone with great interest in the lore - as someone with a character closely involved with a frost witch and someone whose first character's concept was very similar to that of a frost witch. First of all, it's certainly refreshing to see such levels of interaction between the LT and both the frost witch community and the wider player community, which seems to be lacking in other aspects of LotC lore and magic. Allow me then to pose some concerns, suggestions, and comments regarding these survey results and their explanations. Regarding the appearance change: Not being a frost witch player myself, and only interacting with them in disguised form, it is of no concern to me and it's a decision that falls under the frost witch playerbase's responsibility. However, what I am concerned with is that this decision might have been influenced by outside factors - namely the wider playerbase and their perceived idea of frost witches being mandatory railroaded villainous creatures, and part of the ongoing IC and OOC campaign against the frost witch community. By forcing a monstrous look onto frost witches, another degree of separation between them and the rest of society is introduced, helping solidify the position of frost witches as abominable villains even those of questionable morality can easily rally against, which I certainly must disagree with. I believe the best roleplay comes out of abandoning the black-and-white morality many insist on pushing onto LotC factions to further fuel conflict RP, and that this is an issue that must be observed by the LT. A suggestion I'd make is giving the current frost witches a permanent choice between their current undisguised appearance and the newly proposed one, and making the new one mandatory for all newly introduced frost witches instead - it could also add a layer of nuance to conversion roleplay, where a frost witch mother could trick victims into becoming frost witches on the basis they would not be turned into monstrous creatures. Again, this is a matter that only concerns the current frost witch playerbase and merely a suggestion on my end. Regarding how frost witches are perceived, and 'slice-of-life RP': Tying in to my previous point, I believe the vast majority of our community more often than not exaggerates these issues (and not only when it comes to frost witches; other 'villainous' playerbases often take the hit). As someone who's played a sociopath serial killer desperately blending in society, I firmly repeat my point that abandoning the notion of 'villainous' playerbases' RP having to be railroaded into villainy and as such not allowing them any semblance of grey morality or relief from being hunted down by everyone and their mother 24/7 is key to allowing meaningful, diverse, and dynamic RP to flourish. My serial killer ascended to the highest echelons of Imperial Orenian society, thus being able to orchestrate resounding acts of villainy - why would a frost witch be denied the same option of melding into society one way or another, even through dreaded 'slice-of-life' out of misguided notions, when it would allow for much better villainous RP? It is especially so since one of the main features of a frost witch is their disguise which allows them such! I hate to provide yet another subjective example, but it is one of great importance to myself - my character's wife is a frost witch. This relationship, having already been socially incompatible due to racial differences, is not the result of forced, railroaded, 'edgy' RP and the desire to spite anyone, nor the wish to FTB with a frost witch for bragging rights or whatnot - it's the result of a long, ongoing dynamic RP between two characters whose fates have been intertwined for over thirty RP years already. It has resulted in numerous memorable RP events, and several OOC friendships being formed, but also a great deal of motivated targeting. I can assure you that all the RP that has come out of it has been meaningful, and that the character's conversion into a frost witch was strongly motivated, heavily discussed in RP, and what's most important, old lore-compliant which in no way forbid a frost witch from being part of a loving marriage, especially under such unique circumstances. It would be a great blow to dynamic RP and heavily discourage such unique occasions of the entire frost witch community and those who interact with them were lumped into a predetermined gameplay mold. I entirely agree with your conclusion that any arbitrary limits on RP are inherently a bad idea. Regarding the changes to frost witch magic: I highly approve and advocate all LotC magic standardization; the frost witches are no exception to this. I cannot wait to see the new magic lore! Conclusion: I am very glad to see lore being handled this way, and sincerely hope such an approach will become the norm for all major lore changes on LotC. Keep up the good work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChonGojDragonski 317 Share Posted May 1, 2018 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: However, what I am concerned with is that this decision might have been influenced by outside factors - namely the wider playerbase and their perceived idea of frost witches being mandatory railroaded villainous creatures I'm not sure what you would call a creature that literally feeds on innocent people so that they could stay alive. Sure, I can understand not wanting to do it, but anyone that continues doing such is a villain. The creature was created for villainy roleplay, and anything that isn't that kind of roleplay can be accomplished with a variety of other descendant races/creatures. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: By forcing a monstrous look onto frost witches, another degree of separation between them and the rest of society is introduced, helping solidify the position of frost witches as abominable villains even those of questionable morality can easily rally against, which I certainly must disagree with. Why though? If you're not going to be inherently villainous and kill people, you should play another race/creature. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: black-and-white morality many insist on pushing onto LotC factions to further fuel conflict RP, and that this is an issue that must be observed by the LT. Killing an innocent person is as black and white as it gets. Think about what you're saying. How else would a good character react to a creature whose nature is inherently evil. Please please please, think about it. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: A suggestion I'd make is giving the current frost witches a permanent choice between their current undisguised appearance and the newly proposed one, and making the new one mandatory for all newly introduced frost witches instead - it could also add a layer of nuance to conversion roleplay, where a frost witch mother could trick victims into becoming frost witches on the basis they would not be turned into monstrous creatures. Anyone IC who voluntarily agrees to become a creature where a requirement is to kill innocent people IS EVIL. THEY ARE MONSTROUS. Making it so people can have the option to be cutesy/pretty all the time is literally the same as being a descendant with frost magic powers that kills men. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: I believe the vast majority of our community more often than not exaggerates these issues (and not only when it comes to frost witches; other 'villainous' playerbases often take the hit) Look at the words that you used. "Villainous playerbase." The word villain is in the phrase. Ofc people are going to **** talk villains that slice of life, that's literally the antithesis of what they're supposed to be doing. And believe me, the issue isn't exaggerated. I've yet to meet a not slice of life frost witch. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: railroaded into villainy and as such not allowing them any semblance of grey morality or relief from being hunted down by everyone and their mother 24/7 is key to allowing meaningful, diverse, and dynamic RP to flourish. If you're playing as a descendant, you have the option to blend in. If you're going to Roleplay as a character who blends into society and then kills people to survive/sate their urges, you can do that exact same thing as a female descendant. People playing creatures when the same thing can be done as a descendant is a major part of the reason we have creature bloat. I'm not saying that being sneaky about your villainy is a bad thing, I'd encourage it. Frost Witches aren't that kind of a creature though. And it's not like the majority of the Frost Witch community is using their disguises to do what you're describing. If they were, perhaps it'd be a different story. They're abusing it to slice of life. 10 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: I hate to provide yet another subjective example, but it is one of great importance to myself - my character's wife is a frost witch. This relationship, having already been socially incompatible due to racial differences, is not the result of forced, railroaded, 'edgy' RP and the desire to spite anyone, nor the wish to FTB with a frost witch for bragging rights or whatnot - it's the result of a long, ongoing dynamic RP between two characters whose fates have been intertwined for over thirty RP years already. It has resulted in numerous memorable RP events, and several OOC friendships being formed, but also a great deal of motivated targeting. I can assure you that all the RP that has come out of it has been meaningful, and that the character's conversion into a frost witch was strongly motivated, heavily discussed in RP, and what's most important, old lore-compliant which in no way forbid a frost witch from being part of a loving marriage, especially under such unique circumstances. It would be a great blow to dynamic RP and heavily discourage such unique occasions of the entire frost witch community and those who interact with them were lumped into a predetermined gameplay mold. I entirely agree with your conclusion that any arbitrary limits on RP are inherently a bad idea. This whole story right here was a completely one off situation. We're not going to make rules that will effect the majority just because they might work for the minority. Same thing applies likewise, silly to not make something that will benefit the majority if it will adversely effect a few people. I also kind of fail to see how this is relevant to any of the arguments being put forth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiumSedai 5750 Share Posted May 1, 2018 You are naturally drawn to debates, aren't you? :P 7 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: I'm not sure what you would call a creature that literally feeds on innocent people so that they could stay alive. Sure, I can understand not wanting to do it, but anyone that continues doing such is a villain. The creature was created for villainy roleplay, and anything that isn't that kind of roleplay can be accomplished with a variety of other descendant races/creatures. Villainy roleplay does NOT equal to banditing roads until a hopeful knight comes along to PvP default you - you seem to argue that villainous creatures should be barred from any semblance of blending in with society, or being involved with any villainy RP that can be done by a descendant too - but that's an argument for the removal of creatures, not against these types of villainy RP, and even as such, the kind of villainy RP you are a proponent of can also be done by a mere descendant highwayman, can't it? Frost witches have their disguises so they could blend in with society to achieve their goals, not add an extra three emotes to road banditry before they reveal their disguise. (Hint: frost witches don't even have to fully reveal their disguises during an assault, thus making your argument that they have to look monstrous under their disguise irrelevant.) 7 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: Why though? If you're not going to be inherently villainous and kill people, you should play another race/creature. Read above. I am not arguing against frost witches being villains, I am arguing about the definition of villain as highwayman and/or cannon fodder for knights and holies. 7 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: Killing an innocent person is as black and white as it gets. Think about what you're saying. How else would a good character react to a creature whose nature is inherently evil. Please please please, think about it. No, it really isn't. That's the worst oversimplification of conflict I've ever heard. There are nuances to all roleplay. One does not have to be an innocent person to end up within a frost witch's grasp, nor anyone engaging in murder is inherently incapable of non-villainous acts, no matter what their motivation may be. A murderer can have dimensions to their character other than 'murderer'. 7 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: Anyone IC who voluntarily agrees to become a creature where a requirement is to kill innocent people IS EVIL. THEY ARE MONSTROUS. Making it so people can have the option to be cutesy/pretty all the time is literally the same as being a descendant with frost magic powers that kills men. No, they don't have to be. ICly, an aspirant frost witch may not even be aware of all the details of becoming one, nor they are required to exclusively prey on innocents. I entirely understand the lore bloat problem plaguing the server, but that's not what we're arguing here, are we? It's about the features of frost witches exclusively, whose removal you may argue for, but while their lore has its legitimate place on the server, it's its properties we're discussing. 8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: Look at the words that you used. "Villainous playerbase." The word villain is in the phrase. Ofc people are going to **** talk villains that slice of life, that's literally the antithesis of what they're supposed to be doing. And believe me, the issue isn't exaggerated. I've yet to meet a not slice of life frost witch. Villains, generally, have lives other than dying to metagaming PvP squads. And villains are NOT required to provide gratification RP to heroes 24/7. Which, of course, does not mean they're supposed to spend all their time pretending they're a normal person - but there's merit to properly upholding one's disguise, and it certainly helps one further their villainous plans. I believe you're simply unable to see the bigger picture when you come across a random roleplayer's conversation - you know no motivations behind it, have no insight in their doings beforehand. Perhaps the frost witch currently engaging in cheery conversation in the town square just murdered and ate two men? Furthermore, how many frost witches have you actually met? 8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: If you're playing as a descendant, you have the option to blend in. If you're going to Roleplay as a character who blends into society and then kills people to survive/sate their urges, you can do that exact same thing as a female descendant. People playing creatures when the same thing can be done as a descendant is a major part of the reason we have creature bloat. I'm not saying that being sneaky about your villainy is a bad thing, I'd encourage it. Read above. 8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: Frost Witches aren't that kind of a creature though. And it's not like the majority of the Frost Witch community is using their disguises to do what you're describing. If they were, perhaps it'd be a different story. They're abusing it to slice of life. How. Do. You. Know? Is this a factual claim or do you just echo what the people who have never met a frost witch spew all the time? Again, how many actual frost witches have you met? 8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said: This whole story right here was a completely one off situation. We're not going to make rules that will effect the majority just because they might work for the minority. Same thing applies likewise, silly to not make something that will benefit the majority if it will adversely effect a few people. I also kind of fail to see how this is relevant to any of the arguments being put forth. It's not. The story was not mainly part of my argument, just a partial explanation of my frost witch situation which some have used as an excuse to OOCly hound myself and the said player. All of it was result of legit, meaningful RP spanning over 30 RP years (and one involving many staff members, including GMs and LTs, might I add), and I will not be explaining it again to people who wish to put no effort into finding out the story IC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChonGojDragonski 317 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I am haha. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: Villainy roleplay does NOT equal to banditing roads until a hopeful knight comes along to PvP default you - you seem to argue that villainous creatures should be barred from any semblance of blending in with society, or being involved with any villainy RP that can be done by a descendant too - but that's an argument for the removal of creatures, not against these types of villainy RP, and even as such, the kind of villainy RP you are a proponent of can also be done by a mere descendant highwayman, can't it? You misunderstood me. I was responding to your post regarding the decision to shift Frost Witches away from disguises, not necessarily the shift in villainy. You are correct in that my argument was specifically geared towards creatures, that's what we're discussing at the moment, Frost Witches as creatures. I'm not advocating for any specific type of villainy roleplay, all I'm saying is that if you want to be the villain that blends in with society and works in the shadows, don't play a creature/Frost Witch. The point of a creature is to literally be something different, hence my problem with the disguises. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: Read above. I am not arguing against frost witches being villains, I am arguing about the definition of villain as highwayman and/or cannon fodder for knights and holies. Too bad this has nothing to do wit the argument I was making. I'll reiterate, if you want to do villainy that involves blending into society, then play a descendant. Creatures are made for the express purpose of creating new forms of Roleplay and begin different. If for all intensive purposes, you're going to look, roleplay, and function as a descendant, you should play a descendant. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: No, it really isn't. That's the worst oversimplification of conflict I've ever heard. There are nuances to all roleplay. One does not have to be an innocent person to end up within a frost witch's grasp Must not have read the lore. A woman can only become a Frost Witch if they accept the curse. And tbh I think you made an error. "One does not have to be an innocent person to end up within a frost witch's grasp." That's my point. And even if you were referring to what I think you were, my previous point still stands. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: nor anyone engaging in murder is inherently incapable of non-villainous acts, No one is saying that, you're straw-manning me. We're talking about Frost Witches and whether they should be able to disguise themselves. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: A murderer can have dimensions to their character other than 'murderer'. Sure. Still isn't relevant to any point that I am making in my argument. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: No, they don't have to be. Yes...they do. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: ICly, an aspirant frost witch may not even be aware of all the details of becoming one Sure, and as soon as they become aware of the details they would promptly not want to be one. Unless they were evil. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: nor they are required to exclusively prey on innocents. I have a hard time understanding how a Frost Witch is supposed to find enough criminals to feed their needs. You're trying so hard to make Frost Witches not evil, it's not working. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: I entirely understand the lore bloat problem plaguing the server, but that's not what we're arguing here, are we? It's about the features of frost witches exclusively, whose removal you may argue for, but while their lore has its legitimate place on the server, it's its properties we're discussing. Sure, but you're the one that took this off topic. You were arguing against making them permanently ugly, I said that's silly because since Frost Witches are supposed to be villains, the only kind of 'uniqueish' RP that they could be offer would be as ugly creatures. Why the hell are you a Frost Witch if you look like a female wood elf the entire time. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: Villains, generally, have lives other than dying to metagaming PvP squads. And villains are NOT required to provide gratification RP to heroes 24/7. I'm not sure what the point of these lines were. If you're dying to metagaming PvP squads, you're doing it wrong. And I never said they have to provide gratification??????????// 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: Which, of course, does not mean they're supposed to spend all their time pretending they're a normal person - but there's merit to properly upholding one's disguise, and it certainly helps one further their villainous plans. I believe you're simply unable to see the bigger picture when you come across a random roleplayer's conversation - you know no motivations behind it, have no insight in their doings beforehand. Perhaps the frost witch currently engaging in cheery conversation in the town square just murdered and ate two men? Furthermore, how many frost witches have you actually met? If you're going to Roleplay as a female descendant the entire time, the only difference is that you occasionally kill someone, just play a descendant. Is it so bad that I want a creature to have an actual differentiating feature? And believe me, I can name like 3-4 Frost Witches I've met, all slice of life. 16 hours ago, LithiumSedai said: How. Do. You. Know? How do I know? Let's poll the community. Every single Frost Witch I've seen has been slice of life, and the survey results on this very thread suggest that they're too cutesy. MB if I don't have rock hard numbers, but don't act as if this isn't the case. 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Vaynth 3005 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Moved to The Great Library. It shall be sorted into the appropriate category shortly. If you feel this is a mistake, please contact myself or any FM and we'll restore it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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