Crash Out Mission: The Misleading of Regular Players

[Narthok 10416]

15 minutes ago, UnBaed said:

Too many people care for OOC legacies, unfortunately, to think about offering genuine and dynamic narratives.  People are too focused on "winning the game" at any possible opportunity, both on a social aspect and mechanical, too.  It is really unfortunate to see so much of it bleed into RP, it disrupts so many narratives and turns them sour - no matter how hard YOU might try to keep it flowing on your side.

 

It's a general issues with most nations, even outside of the war; nation RP has been reduced to public-relations larping and it just becomes 10x worse in this war.  Not every nation is so bad with it, but some communities are painfully obvious about what they're trying to maintain.

I almost fell out of my chair when people dmed me on discord asking me to have the characters of my nation act in a certain way for public perception

13 minutes ago, Navigator said:

To say this war hasn't been toxic is to be absolutely clueless - the toxicity is just hidden away this time.

 

I agree with Gaius across the board. I'm guilty of the lack of separation sometimes, but having characters on both sides has given me some perspective and I've been tryna get better.

The war has been toxic just in very lame ways.

The memes feel super forced, there is no banter etc.

Very chorelike war

[Unwillingly 18096]

probably a hot take but I personally believe that some of the best RPers on the server are ones capable of dealing with what they're given in RP, even if it inconveniences them or doesn't stand to serve their personal comfort or narrative. meanwhile the people who point to things such as give and take, cooperation, fairness, etc, tend to be the ones more willing to take things into OOC and thereby comprise of the demographic this post addresses, instead of being the fair and just RPers they act like they are

 

I fully acknowledge that there are some OOC grudges between leaders, but what people aren't acknowledging is that probably 80% of the common player on either side (give or take) doesn't care about your personal minecraft beef and grudges. they're just in it because their NL asked them to rally or they enjoy war. it's why I find some community leaders' projection of hysteria onto the rest of their players, by perpetuating that other people are out to get them, that the people they're fighting are evil goons, and the only way to deal with it is through the subversion of RP, incredibly disingenuous and misleading 

 

the culture of simply responding to RP with RP is so lost on people. you basically said what needed to be said, common gaiusmarius W

 

[xo31 3979]

The hardest part of this all is, I believe, that two people can have fully different motivations but still want the same thing. One person may be fighting this war because they've been wronged in roleplay and seek to mend this wrong through valid, care-laced roleplay. However, another person may just as well be fighting in this war because of an ooc beef on the other side. It is as close to two halves of the server fighting at once as you can get - and there is all types of people on this server. Both sides have shitty people who are just doing this to get at the other side, and both sides, just as much, have people who want to commit to valid, cooperative roleplay. It is hard to differentiate between the two easily, so many people get blamed and fight each other, when I believe the silent majority are the metaplay schemers.

 

Unfortunately, in this cruel virtual minecraft world, I think whomever has less ooc beef with the other side and tries to be as good faith as possible, will end up in the gutter at the conclusion of this.

 

I likely won't be participating in this war in any major ways anymore as my motivation is just killed wholly, and I think it is for a lot of others, too. I don't think that the conclusion of this war will be satisfying for anyone.

 

Spoiler

I debated adding this part in as it does come from a place of somewhat bias, but I notice a lot of players (NOT ALL) on one side has pretty consistent unserious quippy memerp that can serve to demotivate and generally make people feel like shit and like their roleplay is uncared for. It really pulls one out of immersion. I believe it's a big problem.

 

[NightcastorKitty 2779]

Just stop being assholes to each other in OOC. It's not complicated. 

[KidKrinkles 2043]

24 minutes ago, Unwillingly said:

probably a hot take but I personally believe that some of the best RPers on the server are ones capable of dealing with what they're given in RP, even if it inconveniences them or doesn't stand to serve their personal comfort or narrative.

 

Just here to echo this sentiment but I think most people view themselves as though they have total agency and control: they are a hard-pressed pen upon the pages of events, lore, story, and the server.

 

I think it's better if one views themselves as a player, and everyone is around them as a DM / Gamemaster themselves.

 

You may have your own goals and agenda, but, you're subject to the roleplay around you. You can chase your prerogatives, but sometimes you're cut short, sometimes you don't succeed, sometimes you lose, and that roleplay is just as meaningful as being John McBadass, blessed by the Aenguls, King of Oren 3.4.

 

It's healthier for yourself and better for everyone to look for the stories told by everyone than just the story about you. There's no shame in losing to someone; especially if they're worthy, and you help them be worthy. That's the nature of dynamic and cooperative storytelling in this format.

[Lirinya 4021]

Preface, I'm sorry for quoting you twice. I'm not singling you out, you just made some valid points and am using you to indirectly reply.

 

37 minutes ago, Islamadon said:

It drives me crazy because a lot, if not all, of the tragedy and supposed RP squashing could have been avoided if they simply won raids (easier said than done) or did not enter the War in the first place.

 

It is far more easier said than done to win a raid, you're right. As someone who hates PVP, there is a severe lack of interest in it all when every nation discord and war discord pings several times a day for the same thing. You can certainly tell the difference between those who are hyped for it, and those who are going along with it because it's expected of them OOCly as someone from one of the warring nations. It's easy to see why people don't take part and therefore, rally numbers aren't high enough and therefore, wars are lost. It isn't always an exciting situation to be in. I was semi hyped for the first war. It was well hyped OOCly and ICly it was a big drama point. But now, and it might be because I dislike PVP or time constraints, or for other personal reasons, it feels like a chore.

 

The concept of spending every saturday evening rallying up through several discord pings, making a specific time, listening to people shouting confusing and conflicting orders in VC just isn't appealing and I'm sure I'm not the only person to think that. If I didn't feel obliged to rally, I wouldn't take part for the enjoyment of it, you know? Can we just not cap wars at a certain number for people who do enjoy PVP and just let them loose somewhere? I'd watch that stream like it was an esports match.

 

Now in terms of entering the war. The average person really doesn't have a choice. Perhaps those that don't enter the war are the ones who don't rally, but by proxy they are still part of the war. It's not really something you can avoid, unless you are from a totally neutral state. A friend of my own doesn't take part in PVP, but they are indirectly still on a side of the war and have to face IRP consequences which are well out of their control.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Islamadon said:

Such is the RP consequence of actions taken RPly against a coalition that has momentum and hunger. Players have to realize that even if they lose it’s not the end of the world (RIP Aesterwald, Caliphate, Oren, Marna, Nu-Kaedrin, Etcetera)

 

The slice of life rpers like their little worlds whereas the more outgoing or conflict players (people who solely play bandits, bad guys, chaotic characters etc) will always clash in some manner. Because one side likes peace and the other likes to shake that up. Nothing wrong with shaking it up, by the way.

 

When Nevaehlen was warred at by Hnor how ever long ago it was now, the one mentality we tried to push is that it really doesn't matter if we won or lost because the story would continue on regardless. Regardless of if we had the tile or if we were nomads or if we were vassals of someone. We knew it was a losing battle to begin with. Nev had no allies and it wasn't filled with PVPers. There were very few of us who cared for it, in reality. So we had the resources and gear, just not the body count. But in those situations you have to push the narrative of: Win or Lose, it's just another chapter of the overall story. A page in a characters life where they can look back on and go "Remember when Nevaehlen got ransacked by High Elves?"

 

But then you get onto the overly complex thing of people not separating OOC from IC. Now, when Nev fell, we initially went to Norland as refugees. Some splintered off, but a core group went there. We set up camp and vibed there for a little bit. But I had burnt out from the war, and subsequently shelved the character. Nev went on and now, it has resettled in ruins and rebuilt itself. Rather than get myself irritated OOCly with things that went on, the loss and what not, I was much happier to separate from that situation entirely and if that meant shelving a character to do so, then so be it.

 

I think people forget that things can reform and rebuild, or relocate and adapt. It isn't always a farewell forever. Nations rise and fall time and time again, some more consistent than others but they do. (RIP Caliphate, you were a good one.)

 

Of course these are just my opinions. We can all get a little too invested sometimes, and sometimes you just need to go and touch some grass.

[JoshBright 3014]

1 hour ago, Narthok said:

The covenant has made no attempts at diplomacy at all.

sorry man, gotta correct you there, i did make at attempt with you guys 1 week pre-war with drunkpapabear. 

[Lirinya 4021]

54 minutes ago, Narthok said:

I almost fell out of my chair when people dmed me on discord asking me to have the characters of my nation act in a certain way for public perception

The war has been toxic just in very lame ways.

The memes feel super forced, there is no banter etc.

Very chorelike war

 

I don't mean to reply twice to the same thread but this is a perfect summary.

[Nectorist 12869]

Other than some passive-aggressive sniping and shit-talking, I just don’t think the war has been all too toxic, at least when compared with other wars. Is there room for improvement? Yeah, sure, there always is. Are things beyond the pale? Absolutely not.

 

This is just another coalition war in the mold of many others before it. People on the losing side feel like the server they know is falling apart, while people on the winning side feel like they’re about to usher in a golden age. The reality is that the losers go off somewhere else for a brief spell, or are just occupied, while the winners immediately have to contend with the entropy of victory. Within a few months, the political winds change again and allow for new actors to take advantage of the scene.

 

I reckon that once this is all said and done with, the server will look a bit different politically, the overall “narrative” of the server will have changed a bit, but the player count will remain about where it has been. I’ll eat a basketball live on video in front of @Unwillinglyif I’m wrong.

[JoshBright 3014]

11 minutes ago, NightcastorKitty said:

Just stop being assholes to each other in OOC. It's not complicated. 

It’s easy to say, but hard to actually do. In just the last two days, both Frisket and I have been banned from multiple Discords, I got kicked from an SMP, and we’ve both lost friends outright. People don’t want to hear our side, they just hate us for going along with a narrative we didn’t really have much of a choice in nor do they know the full story about. They make assumptions and jump to conclusions that are for the most part, false. I will not lie and say it does not hurt but it is the way it is going to be, best to find out who the true G's are now i guess. 

[Borin 7645]

56 minutes ago, Narthok said:

The memes feel super forced, there is no banter etc.

Very chorelike war

Yeah. It isn't very fun. I don't even have much of a stake in it beyond internal Church policy and gremlining opinions, I don't really care if some nations (except Reinmar...) disappear, beyond sympathy for certain members of certain playerbases.

I don't have much of a stake in it and yet I still can't wrangle any enthusiasm for just having fun during it, beyond the OOC shitfests and increased chances of drama to point and laugh at. It's just... really dull. Feel like its just round 3 or whatever of a past conflict w similar combatants irply and oocly thats been both encouraged and inhibited by people being banned. Just can't get into it whatsoever - the last big war was at least fun, even if it had the same situation of whatever side I aligned with getting their heads kicked in for raids and road patrols, though this time we're not winning warclaims either. I enjoyed it and felt like there was some sense of purpose and that it was a worthwhile war. This... yeah not really. Just tired, get it over with and bring on a new map already to spice things up.

2 minutes ago, JoshBright said:

It’s easy to say, but hard to actually do. In just the last two days, both Frisket and I have been banned from multiple Discords, I got kicked from an SMP, and we’ve both lost friends outright. People don’t want to hear our side, they just hate us for going along with a narrative we didn’t really have much of a choice in nor do they know the full story about. They make assumptions and jump to conclusions that are for the most part, false. I will not lie and say it does not hurt but it is the way it is going to be, best to find out who the true G's are now i guess. 

Idk how this isn't expected, there are people behind the rp personas and what it looks like is you are rebelling in the middle of a war for your own family gaining a place again against a nation that threw titles and land at you immediately after you appeared again that is now fighting a war of national survival. It probably isn't that simple but yeah people are probably ticked off. Probably not the best response to roleplay but on a human level it's an understandable response to be a wee bit ticked off.

[Zhikarta 4064]

32 minutes ago, JoshBright said:

It’s easy to say, but hard to actually do. In just the last two days, both Frisket and I have been banned from multiple Discords, I got kicked from an SMP, and we’ve both lost friends outright. People don’t want to hear our side, they just hate us for going along with a narrative we didn’t really have much of a choice in nor do they know the full story about. They make assumptions and jump to conclusions that are for the most part, false. I will not lie and say it does not hurt but it is the way it is going to be, best to find out who the true G's are now i guess. 

  

You were also in my dm's yesterday trying to get me to convince a Celia'nor player who also has a Dark Elf in my community to leave Celia'nor. You know exactly what you were doing. We don't know eachother, yet you dm'd me about that exact situation. I don't condone the way you and Frisket are treated by Celia'nor, but please don't try and claim a moral high ground when you try to ooc'ly get people to leave the nation your group is rebelling against.

 

Regardless, it is a bit of a shame to see some hypocrisy in the comments here. People often forget that we are just here to have fun, and that on the other side of your minecraft war there are just other people behind their PC trying to have fun. I enjoy some wartime banter and memes but more often than not they become personal attacks against others. I've been trying to involve my community in the war in a positive manner, both ooc'ly and in roleplay. Although I also don't want players to be exposed to some of the behavior that is present on both sides of the war. It's not a fun situation to be in, but sadly has become a theme with all conflicts on lotc.

 

A lot of the bad behavior in wars however I feel comes from people being unable to handle consequences, or rather negative situations that would affect their communities or characters. A lot of players are too hyper focused on making sure the narrative they have in mind for their character plays out to the letter, and to avoid anything negative affecting them. I think everyone has been guilty of it to some extent, but people need to learn that good stories come from both positive and negative outcomes for their personas. Even if it means they end up dead somewhere.

 

Regardless of you agreeing with the RP politics of another nation, just remember there are real people behind these stories and conflicts. Be nice to eachother and behave decently, it's really not that hard to create a fun roleplay-driven community, as opposed to ooc'ly scheming about everything.

[Haseroth 1740]

im having a ton of fun in this war ngl.

[Gavin_ 2027]

This has been a major issue on LOTC for a very, very long time. I myself experienced it as NL of Haelun'or during the Haelun'or vs Ivarielle (C'nor) War. Not only was I demonized and vilified IC'ly (fine), but also OOC'ly (not fine), as were members of the community (we're all nazi's, eugenicists, etc).

I think that because the stakes are so high in this war, people tend to factionalize to the nth degree - this is a deathwar after all (something I personally disagree with from both an IC and an OOC standpoint, though others disagree and have legitimate reasons for doing so). When players factionalize to such an extent, there is almost an onus both IC'ly and OOC'ly to invest your soul into the conflict, and when this happens, we tend to justify any and all actions that we take because after all, it is a life or death situation.

What I would really love to see (and it is not something I have seen often despite joining this server 2 weeks after it launched), is good faith, narrative driven RP where we all try to contribute to the narrative of the other person - it isn't my story, but a shared story, and that is the essence of what LOTC is supposed to be.

My suggestion is that going forward, leaders of either side need to OOC'ly have a chat and discuss what are legitimate goals and outcomes for the conflict. Not every war has to lead to total destruction and forced vassalization. Also, unfortunately it needs to be said, but more talking between leaders and communities is important to avoid any kind of harassment, character bleed, etc. LOTC can be a nasty place at times, let's try and make it a bit better and lead by example.

[JoshBright 3014]

16 minutes ago, Statherian said:

You were also in my dm's yesterday trying to get me to convince a Celia'nor player who also has a Dark Elf in my community to leave Celia'nor. You know exactly what you were doing. We don't know eachother, yet you dm'd me about that exact situation. I don't condone the way you and Frisket are treated by Celia'nor, but please don't try and claim a moral high ground when you try to ooc'ly get people to leave the nation your group is rebelling against.

i was memeing with echo since we where actively in vc at the time and he was telling me that you where dming him. your welcome to ask him and confirm with him. 

 

Also a week piror to anything going on echo moved his darkelf into helious to be a Liberian well also having elgras in celia'nor