On Conflicts of Interest

[Islamadon 9158]

4 hours ago, Fluffy Horror said:

 

Just clarifying since there might be a misunderstanding, apologies if the tone seems defensive or rude I'm just information dumping. ST cannot use Event Characters for personal use. On the ground, ST Player Characters are exactly the same as everyone else. While it may be perceived that they have more stuff than the average player, it is more common that players who have PRIOR interacted with lore enlist themselves into the ST. I can say with total certainty for myself (despite serving as Lore Manager) that I have never once been offered a Magic or position by virtue of being ST. I would say the only advantage is OOC connections with other Staff Members, but anyone can be a sycophant if they suck up to the right people (obviously do not do this).

Otherwise, the problem of spoon-fed events is seldom ever tied to actual Nation Leadership, or by request of nation leadership. In my experience, Event Runners would just rather run events for their friends because it's fun for them and because they feel like they'll actually have interactions rather than people loot sniping. I can also say from experience that an ET like Shorsand gets a devilish smirk griefing their friends' towns. As for loot (specifically the distribution of ST Materials), all proposals go through ST Management and it becomes rather obvious when people are just handing loot out to their friends - we shut that down to the best of our ability.

At the end of the day most ST are creative people who just want to create. I've my own issues with these rule changes because I think it stifles RP potential, but it's admittedly difficult to understand from an outside player perspective rather than an insider ST's. All the Lore Team, for instance, benefits from being on the ST is some pex to /warp and /fly in exchange for doing tons of back-end paper work that genuinely sucks eggs. The Event Team, while being able to run events, seldom get to experience Events as players themselves. There is also a bit of a unwritten rule where Greens don't reward Greens.

[argonian 14254]

11 minutes ago, Islamadon said:

Just clarifying since there might be a misunderstanding, apologies if the tone seems defensive or rude I'm just information dumping. ST cannot use Event Characters for personal use. On the ground, ST Player Characters are exactly the same as everyone else. While it may be perceived that they have more stuff than the average player, it is more common that players who have PRIOR interacted with lore enlist themselves into the ST. I can say with total certainty for myself (despite serving as Lore Manager) that I have never once been offered a Magic or position by virtue of being ST. I would say the only advantage is OOC connections with other Staff Members, but anyone can be a sycophant if they suck up to the right people (obviously do not do this).

Otherwise, the problem of spoon-fed events is seldom ever tied to actual Nation Leadership, or by request of nation leadership. In my experience, Event Runners would just rather run events for their friends because it's fun for them and because they feel like they'll actually have interactions rather than people loot sniping. I can also say from experience that ET like Shorsand gets a devilish smirk griefing his friends' towns. As for loot (specifically the distribution of ST Materials), all proposals go through ST Management and it becomes rather obvious when people are just handing loot out to their friends - we shut that down to the best of our ability.

At the end of the day most ST are creative people who just want to create. I've my own issues with these rule changes because I think it stifles RP potential but it's admittedly difficult to understand from an outside player perspective rather than an insider ST's. All the Lore Team, for instance, benefits from being on the ST is some pex to /warp and /fly in exchange for doing tons of back-end paper work that genuinely sucks eggs. ET, while being able to run events, seldom get to participate in others and obviously can't give themselves character development either . . .

The main advantage of being ST is you all run around in /godmode 24/7.

 

Unrelated but I think this debate over whether different staff can or can't be NLs would be much easier if staff could just take a leave of absence to play one rather than having to go through the whole rigmarole of applying again once they've PK'd. Obviously for the Admin team there are limited slots, but I don't see why it should be an issue for any other team.

 

Tbh it's always dumb when some guy posts his 10th GM application (he took a 2 week break from Minecraft the other 9 times). If you left a team in good standing, you should be allowed to just msg the team lead asking to rejoin.

[Fluffy Horror 496]

Responding to Islamadon because I do not know how to quote or tag others on the Forums. I clicked the quote button and it didn't do anything and that is about the limit of my brain power right now.

 

From the sheer amount of players in assorted Discord servers for a wide variety of nations and groups, a fairly universal complaint I have seen is of STs holding way too much RP power. And not just about the same STs either, I have seen this expressed about multiple different situations, historically and present.

 

Apparently there is one right now who not only plays the religious figurehead of the Empire (fake angel) AND the prince, which is a lot of power stacked into one Nation. Between those two characters, the ST member has the power to dictate the storyline of the server for the next year, at least, considering the Empire is basically the entire map right now. And when you control the storyline in the present, you shape it to exactly what you want it to be in the future.

 

I also really don't get the argument that it "limits roleplay". There is only one nation leader per nation, and a limited amount of leadership positions around them. Every single character on the server isn't aspiring to leadership. I have exactly zero characters who aspire to leadership right now, and I'm having a blast. There are so many other avenues of roleplay. Magic, knighthood, secret societies, merchanting, physicians, librarians, astrologists, researchers, guards, event planners, the clergy, your imagination is the only limit. Banning ST members from leadership positions eliminates such a laughably small subsection of roleplay. Heck, it doesn't even have to be all leadership. I'm sure a head doctor or a captain in the guard is perfectly reasonable. Just, like, at the bare minimum, no more royals?

Edited May 28, 2025 by Fluffy Horror
Correct spelling

[Islamadon 9158]

3 hours ago, Fluffy Horror said:

Responding to Islamadon because I do not know how to quote or tag others on the Forums. I clicked the quote button and it didn't do anything and that is about the limit of my brain power right now.

 

From the sheer amount of players in assorted Discord servers for a wide variety of nations and groups, a fairly universal complaint I have seen is of STs holding way too much RP power. And not just about the same STs either, I have seen this expressed about multiple different situations, historically and present.

 

Apparently there is one right now who not only plays the religious figurehead of the Empire (fake angel) AND the prince, which is a lot of power stacked into one Nation. Between those two characters, the ST member has the power to dictate the storyline of the server for the next year, at least, considering the Empire is basically the entire map right now. And when you control the storyline in the present, you shape it to exactly what you want it to be in the future.

 

I also really don't get the argument that it "limits roleplay". There is only one nation leader per nation, and a limited amount of leadership positions around them. Every single character on the server isn't aspiring to leadership. I have exactly zero characters who aspire to leadership right now, and I'm having a blast. There are so many other avenues of roleplay. Magic, knighthood, secret societies, merchanting, physicians, librarians, astrologists, researchers, guards, event planners, the clergy, your imagination is the only limit. Banning ST members from leadership positions eliminates such a laughably small subsection of roleplay. Heck, it doesn't even have to be all leadership. I'm sure a head doctor or a captain in the guard is perfectly reasonable. Just, like, at the bare minimum, no more royals?

The ST you are referring to does not RP an actual angel but a Player CA; the purpose of the CA is to gaslight and deceive others given their patron is the Daemon of Trickery basically. He chose the form of an angel because he found it funny and gave good RP. He also had that character BEFORE becoming the Prince, which he only received post-war and I am sure he plans to follow ST ethics regarding NL-ship once he takes the RP throne.

EDIT: Adding on now that I reached a PC. The reason I believe it stifles RP is because many ST enjoy writing and enjoy RP'ing. When they write a Culture for a player-group, be it a nation, a vassal, or some lore group, it is extraordinarily difficult to get the ball rolling unless they themselves, the primary writer, participates in leadership to some degree to help establish a standard for RP and to help people create characters in the first place. Naturally, other people can hold the position of NL, I do not think any is opposed to that. But Staff outside of Nation politics as a whole prevents Johnny Imperial from helping to develop good Court Culture because he pushes paper for SquakHawk. In my experience, I am one of the curators for Koyo-Kuni culture and religious RP and so this change WOULD HAVE directly affected my involvement with my friend-group had I not gotten permission from my Red Boss to ignore it.

[Benleft 2578]

You’re allowed to say WEREWOLF he’s already reading all of these 

[Islamadon 9158]

2 minutes ago, Benleft said:

You’re allowed to say WEREWOLF he’s already reading all of these 

I don't want to feed his ego 🤓

[colovian fur 8360]

I gave islamadon and wowj 1,000,000,000 minas when I was ET don’t let them fool you 

[LoTC's Next Top Model 1626]

12 hours ago, Fluffy Horror said:

So I am a brand new player and I have no idea who any of these people are or what's going on, so I'm fairly confident I can provide a relatively unbiased perspective, based on my experiences with other roleplays and LARP.

 

I do not think it matters terribly much if tech staff hold leadership. I do not think it matters terribly if mods hold leadership. While they have an impact on gameplay for sure, their OOC duties and powers have a more nebulous effect on RP. Sure, people can feel pressured because they're staff, and they can make unfair rulings- but that can always be dealt with further up the chain.

 

What I DO think is an egregious oversight is allowing ST members to hold leadership positions.

 

ST members explicitly have power over the story. They can create powerful PCs and use those PCs to influence nations and gain power for themselves. They can shower their favourites with events, ST items, cool plotlines. In my LARP games, owners and other managers can play, but the one role that is absolutely forbidden from doing so is the members of Plot, precisely for these reasons.

 

Rather than forbid mods and tech team members from holding leadership, forbid STs. They do not need to be nation leaders to do their job effectively.  They can create meaningful stories for people without being an NL.

 

I'm frankly confused as to why they're the exception, and not mods. An ST can influence the game more than a mod ever could.

the guy who writes the rules for nations absolutely has an infinite amount more power as a nation leader than the guy who writes the lore for air evocation lmao.

>They can create powerful PCs and use those PCs to influence nations and gain power for themselves.

they can't do this any more than any other player can. you dont have to be ST to write lore, and most of the st doesn't do events. they just vote on what gets passed. at least half, probably more, of all current lore on the server is written by people who arn't on the team.

none of this even matters in terms of war, either. in the war server, everyone is exactly the same, no matter what magics or items you have. the mechanically created completely benign non-artifact gear each person brings into the war server is the only thing that matters. the mary sue god original oc do not steal nation will lose to the grinder nation 10 times out of 10, no matter how many events they've had.

there is no functional power an st who is just a noble has over a normal player, except for non-rp stuff like being able to enable godmode so they don't need to eat and having access to warps and shit like that. nothing they preside over directly affects politics, it's not like they get to write lore over past conflicts to retcon diplomacy or some shit like that.

for the record i'm not saying gms should be limited either. functionally i don't think most staff positions actually give that much of an advantage in terms of nation leading... except the admin in charge of the nation rules, the tech of the server, and most of the daily operations. he has an advantage literally noone else does, and can easily rewrite the rules whenever he wants and force them through. thats problematic. the guy who decides whether or not clerics get accepted is not going to give any nation an advantage over any other.

>They can shower their favourites with events, ST items, cool plotlines.

i mean, maybe? but st are so desegregated that it doesn't matter. every nation has several, and this isn't realistically a problem.

[Fluffy Horror 496]

@IslamadonI know he's not a real angel, the entire Empire still does whatever the character says to do., and he has a lot of power to back it up- apparently he burned a bunch of cities to the ground by himself? Is this a power realistically obtainable by a normal player?

 

You don't think that playing both the head of church AND the head of state is going to present a problem down the line? You don't think all the things he's done for the Empire, i.e. arranging for them to become an Empire through OOC and IC discussions, razing cities for them, putting the fear of GOD into enemies, all of which were actively benefitted by his ST status- played a factor in getting him the princedom? You don't think that an ST with the next Emperor and the head of the church has the power to completely dictate the plotline, especially so because they write the lore? Did they write the lore that enabled their djinn to pretend to be an angel?

 

We all enjoy writing and RPing, we are on a roleplay server. If the Lore you write is interesting, people will be enthusiastic about it, and will start it themselves without you having to be the NL. As a former plot member of my LARP it sure is stressful to let your plot baby go into the hands of regular players, but it's ultimately what's necessary.

 

@BenleftI didn't say it because I didn't know who he was. I now do, thanks for the info!

 

@LoTC's Next Top ModelThe tech guy writes the nation rules? That seems like it is not part of his duties as the tech guy. If that is expressly a power of his, for sure he should not have leadership- but y'all why did the tech people get that job?? Now I'm even more confused.

 

You cannot say that being an ST does not give you an advantage over other players. Other players are motivated to give you what you want. You have the direct power to sabotage them, or help them. Hell, you can write an event to PK them, if you like. You can pit them against a monster way above their level. Do the STs not directly run events? Who does?

 

It's NOT the same in the war server, because who are people's characters going to side with- the nation with an ST playing an angel (fake or not, the powers are still powering), in the royal family, actively showing favoritism, or the nation that doesn't have that? I know what I'd pick. People are facing being wiped off the map or falling in line. Look at Balian. They were completely routed and became vassals of the orcs, no longer a threat, no longer fighting. And yet, the Empire has still been attacking them, because destroying their nation is not enough. They didn't surrender, so people OOC want them gone (I have heard multiple people say this OOC in VCs multiple times). Other players look at that and DO NOT want that to happen to them. They're gonna side with wherever the winds are blowing, and right now, that's to a nation and church run by an ST.

 

It is impossible to eliminate the advantage STs have. Therefore, they shouldn't be Nation Leaders. Any staff member with a significant advantage because of their position should not be NLs, period. 

[Werew0lf 24180]

5 minutes ago, Fluffy Horror said:

 

@IslamadonI know he's not a real angel, the entire Empire still does whatever the character says to do., and he has a lot of power to back it up- apparently he burned a bunch of cities to the ground by himself? Is this a power realistically obtainable by a normal player?

 

You don't think that playing both the head of church AND the head of state is going to present a problem down the line? You don't think all the things he's done for the Empire, i.e. arranging for them to become an Empire through OOC and IC discussions, razing cities for them, putting the fear of GOD into enemies, all of which were actively benefitted by his ST status- played a factor in getting him the princedom? You don't think that an ST with the next Emperor and the head of the church has the power to completely dictate the plotline, especially so because they write the lore? Did they write the lor

 

Hello, I am the player you are referring to here.

 

First of all, I am not the head of the church, and in the church, my character is heavily scrutinised and still is to this day. When the character originally existed, he was not canonised as a real angel and was consistently called a demon — it was only through my roleplay efforts that I was able to achieve the status-pro of Angel which took approximately 9 months IRL.
 

I did not write the lore that enables me to play this CA — I have had no aid in writing it, nor did I ever write it for myself. I was once just a normal player pre-ST and was able to get this CA through my own hard work and effort, and then followed it through as an ST. 
 

My character has never acted out in self-interest. I have simply completed the tasks that I have been provided by my contractor, who, at the time, and still is, the head of the church. A lot of my actions on this character have remained solely by the jurisdiction of other players. 
 

The creation of the Empire was not inspired by my Angel, and nor was this war. As per my roleplay, I actively insisted to erictafoya and others characters to avoid this war. This would be antithetical to making any Empire, as if I wanted to orchestrate the start of an Empire, I would have actively pushed to destroy the Horenic Covenant from the beginning (which, to the chagrin of the screamers, I did not). 
 

Any player who has the Djinn-CA is able to achieve what I do, and so are others with other MAs. It is all up to PRO — I was simply in the fortunate position that all my benefactors were able to take over the nations through war, gain PRO, and then, this allowed me to use my characters abilities to destroy said nations to push that narrative. I have not destroyed nations willy-nilly, I would get banned otherwise (and griefing another PRO’s nation without their consent is not allowed regardless, as per the redlines). Players have achieved this before.
 

I am now playing the crown prince emperor-to-be. You raise a point that is fair — my character is intermingled with both the faith and the empire on both, but unfortunately, either is wildly disproportionate. My faith rp remains simply faith RP, and my influence in the church is defined by the players. The same applies to my role as the prince.
 

I was offered to play the prince character by my good friend @Tide1 after the war had already been prompted and it was never my intention to do so originally until it was brought up to me.

 

I will not be allowed to continue on as an ST whilst being the head-of-state as far as I have been made aware by my administration. 

Does being an ST give you an advantage over other players? Yes. You are apart of the team that deals with the lore, knows the lore, votes on the lore, and also, runs the events. Generally, ST do not partake in events if they are ET, it’s just our universal rule. However, it is a good interface to network, and generally, all players who are ST usually have had a hand in dealing with lore. When players see the green tag, I cannot deny that it probably makes them think that the ST-in-question is roleplaying whatever x or y as legitimate. I would say that is not the fault of the ST, but the player, and that the ST should not be forced into a constricted role because players see them as the penultimate story-teller. 
 

Most ST usually are not allowed to be nation leaders, but at the same time, they are scrutinised heavily when they are. On top of this, even if the player is no longer ST, you don’t really solve the problem — they still have friends on the ST who will work to their benefit. It is no different from me not being the NL and simply deciding to pump events and items into a nation my friend runs legally. Also, ST items are logged and appraised strictly to avoid pex abuse or loot-spawning. 
 

I hope this answers your question and offers you a perspective that isn’t word-of-mouth.

 

I also won’t deny any bias; I would much rather work with my friends, roleplay with my friends, and reward my friends. However, I would never reward my friends by using my pex to spawn them in items. All artefacts that I have made were made through legitimate means, with all materials gained without the support of other ST and done so before I was ever on the story-team. I will continue to support my friends and roleplay with my friends, because I like roleplaying with friends. I joined lotc to meet new people and roleplay with creative writers, but also, because I wanted to hang out and rp with my friends.

 

 

 

[argonian 14254]

43 minutes ago, Werew0lf said:

Hello, I am the player you are referring to here.

 

First of all, I am not the head of the church, and in the church, my character is heavily scrutinised and still is to this day. When the character originally existed, he was not canonised as a real angel and was consistently called a demon — it was only through my roleplay efforts that I was able to achieve the status-pro of Angel which took approximately 9 months IRL.

i dont think this is accurate. you made a post declaring your char an aengul like immediately after u pk'd and the case for canonising u was opened immediately after in the next ecumenical council. and then in that council u were canonised and acknowledged as an aengul, very soon after it first came to the church's attention.

 

maybe this 9 months is coming from including the entire time u played the character before pk'ing, but u weren't (publicly at least) claiming to be an aengul while u were a living cardinal and running to be pontiff, etc.

 

i don't mean any shade in this but i just don't think what ur saying here is actually correct. u were acknowledged as an aengul right after the church first became aware of any claims that u were one

[Werew0lf 24180]

3 minutes ago, argonian said:

i dont think this is accurate. you made a post declaring your char an aengul like immediately after u pk'd and the case for canonising u was opened immediately after in the next ecumenical council. and then in that council u were canonised and acknowledged as an aengul, very soon after it first came to the church's attention.

 

maybe this 9 months is coming from including the entire time u played the character before pk'ing, but u weren't (publicly at least) claiming to be an aengul while u were a living cardinal and running to be pontiff, etc.

 

i don't mean any shade in this but i just don't think what ur saying here is actually correct. u were acknowledged as an aengul right after the church first became aware of any claims that u were one

you’re basing this off of posts

 

i have been angel larping much before my supposed death post and this was via when i met levy as a humble priest 

 

this can also be vouched by my interactions with the church and the players at the time as I went on a spree of helping people as raguel

 

after my death was my first public facing Raguel-posting 

 

hope this clarifies

[argonian 14254]

10 minutes ago, Werew0lf said:

you’re basing this off of posts

 

i have been angel larping much before my supposed death post and this was via when i met levy as a humble priest 

 

this can also be vouched by my interactions with the church and the players at the time as I went on a spree of helping people as raguel

 

after my death was my first public facing Raguel-posting 

 

hope this clarifies

I was disagreeing with the implication your character was called a demon for 9 months when he was a clergyman (eventually cardinal) in good standing with the Church, who was even nearly made Pontiff not long before the fake PK, and who was recognised as an Aengul extremely soon after the idea he was one became public knowledge. I wasn't denying that he claimed to be an Aengul privately before that.

[Fluffy Horror 496]

@Werew0lfHi there! Thanks for rolling in to tell your side of the story. All I know about anything is secondhand, and somewhere in between all that is the truth. I'm actually way more cool if you're stepping down as ST while you're the NL. That's pretty much just what I'm advocating for.

 

I still think it should be an official rule that STs can't be Nation Leaders. My points that I've hashed our still stand regardless of what the whole situation is.

[Werew0lf 24180]

16 minutes ago, argonian said:

I was disagreeing with the implication your character was called a demon for 9 months when he was a clergyman (eventually cardinal) in good standing with the Church, who was even nearly made Pontiff not long before the fake PK, and who was recognised as an Aengul extremely soon after the idea he was one became public knowledge. I wasn't denying that he claimed to be an Aengul privately before that.

yeah ur just wrong 

 

i was a clergyman in good standing but people did not know that Raguel was my clergymans disguise

 

i was called a demon by priests way before during my appearances in haense before i even hit the rank of cardinal

 

i was also ostracised in minitz or something else during this time when i appeared as raguel, there was a book in the aaun library that discussed the nature of demons and my char was mentioned as a subject of this (truth) and this was before I had PK’d or even gotten to the pontiff elections against nolan

 

i was not recognised as an angel really soon after i was raguel. i only became recognised during madone’s reign, and that happened after nolan’s reign, and in nolan’s reign I was actively indicted as being a demon by the curia (haensers) because I was their competitors before in the pontifical election + villorik didn’t like what I said about amaya or smth 

 

can u stop being wrong plz it’s like 🥱

 

16 minutes ago, Fluffy Horror said:

@Werew0lfHi there! Thanks for rolling in to tell your side of the story. All I know about anything is secondhand, and somewhere in between all that is the truth. I'm actually way more cool if you're stepping down as ST while you're the NL. That's pretty much just what I'm advocating for.

 

I still think it should be an official rule that STs can't be Nation Leaders. My points that I've hashed our still stand regardless of what the whole situation is.

 

Yeah, I have no plans to be an ST and NL, I already understand the implications of it.