Transparency - What's up with war?

[Beardicuss 486]

2 hours ago, Xarkly said:

For some added context, the reason wars aren't live yet is because costs were proscribed by Admins on their review. The intention is for there to be four increments of war costs based on wargoals, going from pillaging (cheapest), to razing, to conquest, to subjugation (most expensive).

 

As is, the costs as agreed by Admins are too high and we're currently trying to resolve it. 

A fine offering to the Red Gods

[tasty_cheesecake 2298]

Will say that I came to the decision to wage a death war because game-theory wise, I could only assume my opposing geopolitical player was going to death war me back. It reduces to a prisoner's dilemma wherein both parties defecting is not meaningfully worse than both parties agreeing. Therefore, if I allow an enemy nation to continue existing I can anticipate it will attempt to death war me in the future (at least, this was the calculation at the time). There is literally no downside, societal or otherwise, to not simply aiming for obliteration of an enemy, and even if the cost is higher to wage such a conflict I don't think the calculus meaningfully changes.

[milksoda 2884]

thanks spoopy duck c:

[Slorbin 2932]

Why can lairs be warclaimed against? Lairs do not have the manpower to PVP, and never will have the manpower to PVP, as there is no magic plugin on this server, and never WILL be a magic plugin on this server

Lairs don't have mines. Lairs don't have people. Everyone just freecams and finds these lairs. People will just warclaim anything they deem an easy target.

You're making it a SIEGE BATTLE so I have to put SIEGE DEFENSES on my SPOOK LAIR? I thought we were trying to encourage CRP for enemies not just a bunch of ******* clicking? We have siege weapons that BLOW UP WALLS NOW am I supposed to put a bunch of 8 block thick walls around my ******* spookfort?

[tasty_cheesecake 2298]

38 minutes ago, Slorbin said:

Why can lairs be warclaimed against? Lairs do not have the manpower to PVP, and never will have the manpower to PVP, as there is no magic plugin on this server, and never WILL be a magic plugin on this server

Lairs don't have mines. Lairs don't have people. Everyone just freecams and finds these lairs. People will just warclaim anything they deem an easy target.

You're making it a SIEGE BATTLE so I have to put SIEGE DEFENSES on my SPOOK LAIR? I thought we were trying to encourage CRP for enemies not just a bunch of ******* clicking? We have siege weapons that BLOW UP WALLS NOW am I supposed to put a bunch of 8 block thick walls around my ******* spookfort?

 

gonna push back against this tho, if you put a base down from which you launch raids against me (every spook group attacks people except maybe azdrazi but they do lizard ppl government infiltrations instead), you expect the rules to shield you from the wrath of the people you are attacking because...?

[Unwillingly 18103]

interesting choice to make lairs be warclaimable now, thoroughly disagree w/ this for a few reasons

-lairs as communities will almost always be fundamentally smaller weaker than nations. it's not a matter of a place being incidentally weaker due to just playing their cards wrong or something, they're purposefully designed to house smaller corners of the community. lairs are necessary for darkspawn groups in particular a lot of times due to requiring a certain amount of autonomy to pursue their own niche of RP without being meta'd or cucked by OOC baggage so they never ever have the manpower nations do. they dont even have their own mines to grind for gear in a hypothetical WC, and good luck being a darkspawn group trying to get nation mine access in a way that matters

-because of this, there's not a single lair on the server that's so problematic that a nation cannot deal with them without a warclaim (don't cite hexicanum, it was done in mutually good faith and coordinated player events and you know it!). darkspawn groups are so laughably timid when it comes to conflict RP, there's dozens of lairs who have collapsed because they got overwhelmed and dogpiled by multiple groups at the same time. raids ARE the warclaims to these small groups. keep in mind, too, when a lair gets a fire lit under their ass, it's usually multiple groups nations and playergroups and darkspawn hunting guilds doing it at the same time. people work together in RP, because while obviously darkspawn are a universal evil, they're also where all of the bored people go to stimulate their RP storylines and it continuously stacks the odds against people who are already the underdogs. when the black church tried to do stuff that wasn't just hiding behind 40 redstone doors in a cave they got raided day in and day out by every darkspawn hunting guild and nation and holy group on the server and now they're in stasis

-this is just another means of monopolizing the amount of power nations have over smaller fish, which as far as I knew, staff/admins have been trying to resist for years so it's why I'm particularly confused this rule was changed. what lair was suddenly so problematic between this map and last that it necessitated nations be allowed to warclaim a 12 man darkspawn lair that can barely organize itself?

I am far from a darkspawn sympathizer OOCly but u guys should be trying to support these communities and give them the tools they need to actually be impactful so they don't just sit around 24/7 afking like they've been doing for the last 3 years. it's not good for lairs and it's not good for the rest of the playerbase that whenever someone tries to be the foil to the "good-guys" day to day slice of life larp they get wiped into oblivion. it's good that darkspawn exist (to what extent they try) to interrupt the flow of RP and give the average player storylines to attach themselves to and pursue

also lairs can already be evicted by PROs so this is just beating a dead horse lol

[Slorbin 2932]

11 minutes ago, tasty_cheesecake said:

 

gonna push back against this tho, if you put a base down from which you launch raids against me (every spook group attacks people except maybe azdrazi but they do lizard ppl government infiltrations instead), you expect the rules to shield you from the wrath of the people you are attacking because...?

you can still raid these places. the rules do not shield us from the 'wrath', they make you have to fight us on a fair playing field. you've always been able to raid these places. lumbridge fell from constant raiding, which culminated in a CRP event.

 

using cannons to blow them up in pvp is not how to deal with it because pvp doesn't work for spook lairs.

 

also see unw's post. do you want to completely eradicate these groups oocly so you can win the game or do you want to actually keep the villains around so people might feel a will to play them

 

@Spoopy_DuckYou need to give Lairs the ability to give feedback on the ability to be warclaimed when you provide future war rules, so we can all say 'hell no, we're not pvpers'

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

Just a reminder, btw

- Lairs are not moderation structures - they require ST approval to even make one, not a realm application

- Lairs do not get any of the benefits a realm gets [mines, pillars, banks, aviary's, etc]

- If a realm buys the tile the lair is on, they automatically and OOCly gain several things they can do [like warclaim the lair]

 

But please, tell me that its good for the server for people to log on 1-4 saturday-sunday to do what maybe 20 people at most want to do. The poor shotcaller starved of pvp pity them

 

:3 If you see an opposing group and your go-to is to PvP default so you don't "waste you time" you've got brainrot buddy. The server isnt a speedrun contest. It's nice to hear some players say the quiet part open though that warclaims/raids/pvp is just game theory of maximizing "wins" versus time/resources oocly spent and not based in any real narrative. You don't have to pretend its for some greater narrative just get your clicks in @ 1-4. 

 

I sure got tired of repeated 20 man drazi/norland raids watching them minmax, of all things, audio bardmancy & mundane earplugs to make CRPing them as lopsided as possible but frankly, I respect it far more then just the slop of [WARCLAIM] post followed by [DISCORD] channel followed by [LAGGY] warclaim server and then 10 morbillion posts from pvpers who had werewolf/pallo/xarkly format their posts to make them look more legit. If anything, at least the 20 man raids encourage my evil ass demon to plot war crimes upon dragonpeople and therefore encourage me to RP and take coures of action. what's my recourse to /status crusading bruh

 

[Navigator 4260]

38 minutes ago, Unwillingly said:

when the black church tried to do stuff that wasn't just hiding behind 40 redstone doors in a cave they got raided day in and day out by every darkspawn hunting guild and nation and holy group on the server and now they're in stasis

May Allah grant 1000 blessings to you

 

that said, i agree with everything unwillingly said. lairs already get shafted, adding WCs on top of that, is shafting². In the span of a week, before we got our region 'don't raid' effect put on by moderation, i counted that we got:

- 2x norland raids
- 1x azdrazi raid
- 2x empire/inquisitors raid & attempted heist(?)
- 1x random darkspawn hunting guild raid

 

darkspawn rp is already hanging on by a thread and it will continue to hang on by a thread if lairs get smacked. such is life.

[squakhawk 14038]

lairs have always been able to be warclaimed they just have to be on a realm owned tile and known about

 

the lair rules have a clause that they can leave/move if they choose not to fight and get a new lair location of their choice

 

Also they cannot be evicted by PROs?  ? They have to be warclaimed to be gotten rid of. This has not/never changed since their inception

[argonian 14254]

No one wants to go to war over EU4 (LOTC hasn't moved on to EU5 yet) provinces. It's a total waste of everyone's time to do so. The only result of increased war costs would be to make wars drag out even longer, an issue exacerbated by the return of skirmishes and the requirement to encircle capitals.

 

Longer wars further divorced from RP impact (by restrictive costs impeding large demands) might be ok if all you like doing is raiding daily for months on end, but for everyone else it just makes things worse: a longer disruption to regular RP and less interesting things to talk about or consequences to deal with when the war finally does end. Somehow that seems like the exact opposite of what you're going for.

 

If you want to make wars less miserable for players, winners and losers alike, you should make primarily focus on them *shorter* while tweaking the rules to encourage more hands-off subjugations and make total annexation/eviction comparatively more difficult.

 

You could also make wars more interesting and less death-wary by expanding out the list of CBs. Wars to install a claimant or help a vassal gain independence are currently only possible through annexation and then making the relevant change afterwards - why not encourage CBs like these as cheaper alternatives to total annexation or subjugation? You have to promote CBs that have real impact (not "you pay us 100 leather" or "handover of border empty tile") if you want wars waged to something other than the death.

 

Quick wars contribute to this too because anyone's logical reaction to spending 6 months and their entire treasury warring some guys will be to wipe them off the map so it never happens again. Let them finish the war in a month without breaking the bank and there's room for maganimity.

[Slorbin 2932]

1 hour ago, squakhawk said:

lairs have always been able to be warclaimed they just have to be on a realm owned tile and known about

 

the lair rules have a clause that they can leave/move if they choose not to fight and get a new lair location of their choice

 

Also they cannot be evicted by PROs?  ? They have to be warclaimed to be gotten rid of. This has not/never changed since their inception

Yes but this change to the rules allows them to be warclaimed when NOT on a realm owned tile, no?

edit: given what you said this also means they can just also try to buy the tile and then warclaim them to evict them can they not? that, is essentially an automatic eviction, as no warclaim will EVER be won if they lair is not part of another realm

edit 2: it also says it's up to ST management if the lair tries to move. what if ST management is super slow and can't move it before the warclaim happens? rn't we fucked?

[squakhawk 14038]

11 minutes ago, Slorbin said:

Yes but this change to the rules allows them to be warclaimed when NOT on a realm owned tile, no?

edit: given what you said this also means they can just also try to buy the tile and then warclaim them to evict them can they not? that, is essentially an automatic eviction, as no warclaim will EVER be won if they lair is not part of another realm

edit 2: it also says it's up to ST management if the lair tries to move. what if ST management is super slow and can't move it before the warclaim happens? rn't we fucked?

 

 

 

what if mods are super slow and cant do the warclaim idk we'll just chat as staff and if players decide to move it takes a single message to let mods know there isnt gonna be a warclaim and nothing will happen

 

and yes, if they buy the tile, and then warclaim then, they can make the lair go away - this is not new nor has this been an issue in the past, and worst comes to worst a lair moves if they get declared on. It's equally unfun if a lair is a forever-scab giant castle in the middle of a nations territory which they cant interact with or remove but can be freely terrorized by it

[Slorbin 2932]

2 minutes ago, squakhawk said:

2 minutes ago, squakhawk said:

 

 

 

what if mods are super slow and cant do the warclaim idk we'll just chat as staff and if players decide to move it takes a single message to let mods know there isnt gonna be a warclaim and nothing will happen

 

and yes, if they buy the tile, and then warclaim then, they can make the lair go away - this is not new nor has this been an issue in the past, and worst comes to worst a lair moves if they get declared on. It's equally unfun if a lair is a forever-scab giant castle in the middle of a nations territory which they cant interact with or remove but can be freely terrorized by it

 

if ur really sure that the own-everything nations rnt just gonna go out of their way to snake to tiles over and over to continuously destroy lairs. then i trust u.

[argonian 14254]

think the problem with lairs is that they're supposed to be hidden, but the reality of region rules is that that's not really feasible.

 

it'd be ridiculous for nations to NOT hunt and destroy lairs of dark mages or demons from Hell, but I get that having to move lairs constantly would be ridiculous overhead. Also the warclaim itself is kinda a waste of time because it's a guaranteed W so what's the point

 

freebuild would fix all of this, but alas