Governments, Punishments, & Religion

[ℓαтєяяє ~ 236]

Exactly Aislin, exactly. But I have to sleep now, I'll check up on this in the morning. Good night all. (And good morning Aislin)

[Arbrek the Ancient 140]

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/forum/index.php?/topic/45154-the-promethean-cult/

And

http://www.lordofthecraft.net/forum/index.php?/topic/45688-regenis/page__view__getnewpost

For religions, the Orcs have always been very religious and I'm working on it for the Dwarves.

[ACanadianCraft (Nate) 682]

The problem is, that if a single monarch does something a player doesn't like, the player can simply get up and leave. They can go anywhere else. Couldn't do that in Europe. They had to put up with their monarchs. The situation is, eather run your kingdom how the other players want to see it run, or end up ruling an empty kingdom.

[Aislin 4354]

The problem is, that if a single monarch does something a player doesn't like, the player can simply get up and leave. They can go anywhere else. Couldn't do that in Europe. They had to put up with their monarchs. The situation is, eather run your kingdom how the other players want to see it run, or end up ruling an empty kingdom.

The desolation of Kingdoms isn't due to rulers; the majority of players take very little note of government action. Unless the monarch begins enslaving citizens (which would be awesome) or just messing up the nation beyond comprehension, the majority of people won't notice.

However, it's boring RP that drives people out of nations, or a lack thereof. Alras had no problems in management, Syrio knows what he's doing, we just lost interesting RP. The guard died, we didn't have any criminals for the guard, all the corruption in Alras was rooted out, and we were no longer going to war. What did we have then? Nothing, and people left for it.

I hear some pretty negative things about Salvus' RP, but it still remains a very popular location. Why? Because there are people there, and hence RP.

My point is, the rulers can do what they want as long as the citizens have RP, shelter and resources, and if they provide the three, people are happy. So, governments can experiment. Even now, there is no voting per se, and as such the players still don't have too much to say regarding the government. Those in it do, the rest don't.

[Jarkarll 314]

So your calling the communist and fascist and war mongering nation we all call The Strigzgoi, to not having unique rp? We have our own god, our own rules, so many things. I remember someone's hand was cut right off. There's even a punishment where all you can do is carry a stick, wear leather boots, and any orc that sees you can beat you to a pulp if he wishes. Your accusations of not being punished enough is invalid, your just looking in the wrong places.

[Dun_Irongut 104]

I think a problem with these governments is that they work too well. It's like a super-efficient democracy, and they are all determined to serve their monarch faithfully and efficiently. They all follow the monarch, and the monarchs declare war on each other. And they fight. And it's boring.

Religion needs to take a larger part in government RP, as well as citizen RP. Also, we need corrupt politicians, councilmembers who aren't loyal and don't give a damn.

Possibly the Dwarven governments changes are too subtle... We've had around 3-4 kings in the past 50 years, 1 assassination, several assassination attempts, a military coup, hidden alliances, and corrupt politicians. I do see where your coming from though and I do agree that religion does need to become a larger part of RP. As of now, I'm only partially knowledgeable about Dwarven religion, which is still being worked out.

[Aryon 679]

If I were a king of a nation, (This is in LoTC by the way xD) Then I would make a sudden change in belief. Instead of praying to the goody gods, I would pray to the gods of destruction and chaos. Instead of having a select group be evil, I would create a whole NATION that is evil.

[firespirit44 1323]

Now let us think this out again.

What was the point of Medieval Europe being so focused on religion?

1) Promise of a easy afterlife in heaven by the church. Oh guess what? Dawn is over 150 years old! I dont think she's scared of turning old and wrinkly anytime soon.

2) Immortality. Coming from a chinese background, I know ancient chinese kings were made to believe that by doing-this-whatever, they can live forever. And not just the chinese, every where in the world, someone seeks immortality. Some might connect it to religion. Syrio is...immortal. Hochmeister Samuel is immortal. Haelphon is partially immortal? Dawn is immortal. It connects to point one.

3) Power. Which is good, and I remember quite a few officials being corrupted with power during the undead's reign. But now, there is nothing to corrupt them with. Throw me a firespell and I might burn a kingdom down. But other than that, no not really.

4) Many people were very confused of what happens after they die. The Church filled in that gap, and told people "Life is but a preparation for a true journey when you die". Not just the church, but you get me. Islam, Judaism, etc. They essentially controlled what happened after you die through fabrication and influencing leaders and head of state. Back to point one again, so not likely to happen. If these religious bodies CANT convince the head of state to convert, I dont see much happening on the ground with regular citizens.

5) Then again there are not enough preachers to spread the word as well. We also cannot seemingly create religion out of thin air with no backing to it. I am the creator of the Viera, but its not implemented yet. Why? There is no lore behind it. So what if we found a bunch of old tomes, whats the point of worshipping non-existent Gods? Aeriel showed herself to us, therefore she must be real. Jesus showed himself to his followers, performed miracles, therefore what he says must be real. Give a prophet power, and he will guide the lost sheep or mainly people who lust for his powers as well.

These are but the beginning steps, and with Simon's anti-god cult is not helping religion flourish either. He's the antagonist of....something that is almost non-existent. Only thing he could get some decent rp is from monks, Lucas and his religion, some very obsessive dwarven priest? Trust me there are no gods for humans.

TL;DR: Read it.

[Aislin 4354]

Possibly the Dwarven governments changes are too subtle... We've had around 3-4 kings in the past 50 years, 1 assassination, several assassination attempts, a military coup, hidden alliances, and corrupt politicians. I do see where your coming from though and I do agree that religion does need to become a larger part of RP. As of now, I'm only partially knowledgeable about Dwarven religion, which is still being worked out.

The Alras government has had changes too, along with the Human nations and even the Mori and such. In terms of actual structure and results, the governments itself worked similarly and ultimately strived for similar goals. I never lived in the Dwarven nation and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I've heard.

I do agree on the part of the political assassination, corruption, alliances etc. I was a guard in Alras during the Dwarves' infiltration, and was the lead investigator of said corruption. It was great fun searching Alras for the sleeper agents (and by god I would've found them too were it not for the higher-ups), especially having no OOC knowledge of it.

However, I doubt the Dwarves have such political instability and turmoil at the moment, considering the OOC banding together to reform the Dwarves entirely. I'd imagine that you are all more or less working towards a common goal, even the corrupt ones.

Tell me, how is the Dwarven RP as of late?

Now let us think this out again.

What was the point of Medieval Europe being so focused on religion?

[snip]

These are but the beginning steps, and with Simon's anti-god cult is not helping religion flourish either. He's the antagonist of....something that is almost non-existent. Only thing he could get some decent rp is from monks, Lucas and his religion, some very obsessive dwarven priest? Trust me there are no gods for humans.

I whole-heartedly agree with this Jack. It is important for the regular citizens to try and spread religious RP, as well as religious figures need to work towards starting a congregation within their respective city. Pastor_Petrus of Alras has done a pretty good job, considering the circumstances, and my new religious villain has been trying to RP with him a lot, as well as spread the word of Aeriel and other... villainous... things...

Basically, we need to get off our asses and do something about it, rather than make lots of forum posts about it and cry about all the players leaving. We need to translate this issues OOC, and make them IC issues. Question Kings why there's no church in your city, why there is no crime etc etc.

WE NEED TO MAKE THE RP HAPPEN.

[firespirit44 1323]

The issue is that most people on this server frankly aren't bothered by religion IRL, so they dont give a damn about it in a game as well. Many LOTC users dont use the forums, and hence many miss out on all these topics. They probably dont even know the existence of the Celestial Triumvrate, they just spawn, and do their own thing as usual.

Not to mention we dont die, we just....get healed...

[deathmetus 152]

Hello again,

Me and Simonbane were ranting today via /tell on the Server. We were ranting about 3 subjects. Government, Punishment, and Religion.

In this post, I shall describe to you our rants. We call our rants, #ReformLoC

1.Government

Government is a very important thing indeed. Government controls people, gives order to the lands. Without government, there would be anarchy. The governments of Medieval Europe, you ask? We all must know, this server has Medieval aspects to it, aye? Well then, let's get started.

Kings and Queens. The most powerful heads of Europe, other than the Pope at a time. These Kings and Queens usually had absolute power. What is with all these 'councils' in LoC? 'Councils' were basically nothing in Medieval times. You had the King, the Queen, and a couple advisers. That is all. Councils, to me, ruin the Medieval feel we have on LoC. Kings and Queens should have the most power, and shouldn't have councils running the place too. I mean, what happened? Why does the title King and Queen bring you nothing anymore? Good gosh. Holding the title King, Queen, Emperor, or Empress, meant something amazing and powerful in Medieval times. You followed their rule. What is with all these 'Democratic' nations on LoC? Freedom of Speech? Freedom of Religion? No speak of those things were even spoken about!

2.Punishment

Punishment is what you receive in turn for breaking a law. Execution, banishment, jail time, or fines.

On LoC, there is way too much linency for laws. If someone was to walk up to a King or Queen of Medieval Europe, and scream in their faces, they would be usually put to death. What is with all these petty fines, and jail time? Kill the man! Speaking out about the King? Usually, just kill the man! You don't know how much more harsh things were in Medieval Times. Picture your hands being cut off. No antibiotics. No pain pills. Just pain. You would learn your lessons! Very badly, but you would! That brings me to laws. Why are laws to lenient too? If someone screamed at the King, just kill him... If someone speaks out about things, punish him for a much longer time...

3.Religion

Ah, religion. Religion, once a long time ago, held the most important thing in the world. The Pope in Europe had more power than any king or Queen. What I'm looking for, is Religion having Power. Religion should start wars, create groups, be the most roleplayed thing on the server! People don't roleplay religion at all. No masses, no prayers, nothing. They think that Aeriel is the only religion. What about the Celestial Trumvirate? What about the Illuminus Religion? Come on people, Religion would bring the best RP to this server ever!

Please, post comments/thoughts/ideas! I also ask of the Lore Team. Take these things into thought, aye?

My thoughts on the subject. . .

Actually to a point many medieval governments were ruled by councils especially with kings and queens who were either weak or relied heavily on their advisers, or even in cases where the king was yet too young to rule.

The huge issue with doing such harsh punishment is that people will quit and leave as other have said and there is no basis on this. Another issue here with rooting out this strange democracy spree is the fact that almost anyone can create a nation, and any kind of nation, this includes democratic ones. We have to make either a limit on nation/city creation or find a way to limit what kind of governments we will allow otherwise people will go for democracy as everyone wants a say in the government.

Religion is there but do remember that spreading it with the few amount of people who want to be a priest/monk/whatever even in proportion to the server is an issue. We need some way to limit what people can become upon joining, this is the issue of any RP server, if you don't have people who want to fill a role it will stay unfilled and therefore unused.

Though to be fair to these 'Democratic' nations there were certain countries that allow freedom of religion, and speech. . . to an extent. And generally the councils are chose by the nobility/leader so it does have a basis in the nobility.

Last for a thought why not also consider making all these mage groups religious in some way or another, this way people can learn magic but become a priest or leaders of some type of religious group and fill a gap that we are missing. How about more getting magic from praying to a god or gods, worship, and continual devotion/practice. This would allow for development of powerful religious institutions with the large and varied magic groups we have. I have heard that some are or have been doing so. Bloodmages for the tribals, Shamans for the Orcs, Clerics I believe for the Dwarves but unconfirmed, and perhaps Druids for the Elves. This could make for some conflict in case if an elf joined the Clerics yet lived a very druidic based area. Perhaps he could even become a crazy religious zealot and try to covert/purify his area. This would allow for some dynamic, religious and magic RP.

[Acornlad 206]

Nations should have to write laws. Look at Renatus, they have a court, but no official laws.

[Agnub 605]

On the issue of punishments I have to say I have long been holding back a rant on them.

Lets look at a petty theft. What happens? Assuming the situation is RP'd well the criminal is captured and through whatever system of justice is sentenced. But what's the sentence?

Well you can't execute them permanently without their consent, nor cut off any body parts as punishment. You can always do a mock execution but then they send their mina to a friend, die, then just respawn at the temple and start their reign of terror all over again. You also can't imprison them as they usually get out within the hour (whether through a miraculous rescue from nonexistent friends or simply soulstoning when they get bored). You might get banished but all it takes is a skin change and you can trot around as if nothing ever happened.

I suppose my main point is that there is no consequences or severity attributed to governmental punishments as the criminal in question can get off really easy. I would love to see a system where one can somehow seek a permadeath on a criminal - perhaps through GM approval if a trial is adequately performed and sufficient evidence is presented.

[firespirit44 1323]

^ Agreeing to James's post, the real issue is

Death isn't taken lightly at all, in many many levels.

And then again, we cant perma kill other people without their consent. So there is really no repercussion to anything at all.

[Lawrence Berell 226]

Not to be a killjoy, but I for one am against that idea of criminals being able to be perma'd if there is a trial. I mean, that'd leave so many of us open to meta, and entire guilds based on it would be wiped out instantly as the metagamers overcame us all.