[4.0] War And Land

[hex37 737]

They also had a shitty wall that was easy to bypass, their guards were non-existent and left the gates wide open at all hours of the day. Furthermore, a lot of that raiding happened when mages were exempt from PvP default and Malinor was essentially a no-PvP area except for raids. As a result, a lot of the players were upset at this exception and lashed out. Proving that no-PvP areas only cause grief to both sides.

 

If Malinor had taken the proper precautions to avoiding raids, they wouldn't have been raided at all hours of the day. Instead, it immediately went to hiding behind raid rules and OOC. This system negates the OOC

Conclave =/= Malinor. And they had to. As aforesaid, the only way to ACTUALLY stop raiders is to do annoying **** like that.

 

I mean, seriously though, doesn't it matter to you, in some small way, that people hate the brand of roleplay you bring so vehemently? So much so that they are willing to twist the arms of the Staff and how they play on the server to avoid you completely? People are still people, just stereotyping them as one group doesn't solve anything. They have reasons for doing what they do, and in many ways they are perfectly justified for doing it. The Naturalistic fallacy of "I'm strong, your weak, therefore I'm right" does not apply on an OOC basis to LOTC. We're all on the same level outside the client server. Start treating people like it.

 

 

You know how parents tell their kids to ignore bullies? Ignore them until they go away. With this system, you can build a wall and ignore the bigbad pvp bullies until they go away. Raiders get bored when they have nobody to kill, history has shown this.

That doesn't work on an RP server, unless you're actually recommending that we just ignore their RP until they go away.

Edit: Even then, that's not a compromise for anyone. It's basically just saying: "You can have your RP default, but only if it's in a secluded, walled off city that throws people out for OOC reasons that don't fit the status quo. Everywhere else, well, that's PVP default yourminasoryourlifescrub."

[CosmicWhaleShark 2488]

1. No forced conquest. The staff are not going to change their mind about this, so there is really no point in arguing it. However, there need to be other ways for players to disrupt the status quo. This means...
2. Remove the time limit on raid rules. When a settlement can only be raided once per day, everybody can simply log off when attackers showed up (we've seen this before in Anthos). The time limit combined with no forced conquest puts the advantage too heavily in the defenders' park, as well as disrupting the potential for organic roleplay. Furthermore, we've seen that it's pretty much impossible for the moderators to effectively keep track of and impose raid limits.

 

Why? Raids have been one of the more abused aspects of PvP, it's one of the chief reasons people dislike PvP. In the past when there were no raid limits, the Orcs just suddenly had a boost in numbers for alts made solely for raids. It wasn't daily, it was at some points hourly. Players couldn't finish a conversation without dealing with the next raid. Raids are not constructive to anything besides lining the pockets of those who initiate them.

 

We can't effectively moderate something so we may as well just allow free reign. That's basically your argument. As a person who has been on all sides of the spectrum - Orcs and Dwarves included - organic role-play my ass.

 

 

 

1. Maintain a number cap on raid parties. I would suggest 10, for all factions. Raiders have the advantage of being able to muster up numbers prior to a raid occurring via teamspeak/skype, so it's important to make sure they don't show up with 300 people. That's just overkill. However, players need a way to defend against unlimited raiding parties, so...

 

Originally they were numbered at five, at most eight, if you're worried about inflation why in the world would you suggest ten?

 

 

 

1. Impose build protection on settlements with regions (permissions). With a wall, a gate, and a region, players can effectively keep undesirables out of their settlement. The text players now have a way of escaping dreaded raids and PvP, without angering the mechanics players. Raid frequency will be naturally limited by this, simply because it won't be as easy to attack a settlement as it is in the Fringe (i.e. placing a ladder on the wall and jumping in). 

 

This is already intended, I believe. 

 

 

 

1. Remove no-PvP flags. With no perms, players can't place ladders or anything else to get in, while this will need no moderation interference to preserve. No-PvP flags are overkill. With build protection, raiders won't be able to get in, so why have no-PvP? Guards within settlements will be unable to maintain order, edgies will spring up again in full force (notice how most places have virtually no edgies killing innocents now?), and server policy will be contradicted ("After much deliberation, we have decided to return PvP to an absolute default." - Rittsy, 2014).

 

There's truth to this, but it has about as much foundation as claiming that raids will provide organic role-play. Maybe players would be more inclined to be chilled out in a no PvP zone, who knows.

 

 

 

1. Ban PvP traps, lava moats, and anklebiters under the label of powergaming. Protected regions will be nigh impossible to infiltrate with the slew of faction server defenses that can currently be built on the server (so many battles have resulted in hour-long stalemates, they're boring). Impenetrable walls are sufficient defense, give the attackers a chance.

 

Why would defenders 'give attackers a chance'? You wanted to attack them, why should it be easy?

[argonian 14254]

Conclave =/= Malinor. And they had to. As aforesaid, the only way to ACTUALLY stop raiders is to do annoying **** like that.

Annoying **** like hiring guards and making a proper walls? If you're unwilling to do something as simple as hire a few guards, you deserve getting raided. Stop trying to use OOC barriers to stop dynamic RP, instead of simply using RP methods.

I mean, seriously though, doesn't it matter to you, in some small way, that people hate the brand of roleplay you bring so vehemently? So much so that they are willing to twist the arms of the Staff and how they play on the server to avoid you completely? People are still people, just stereotyping them as one group doesn't solve anything. They have reasons for doing what they do, and in many ways they are perfectly justified for doing it. The Naturalistic fallacy of "I'm strong, your weak, therefore I'm right" does not apply on an OOC basis to LOTC. We're all on the same level outside the client server. Start treating people like it.

If you don't like dynamic RP, this server really isn't for you. This isn't a small village RP in WOW, this is a dynamic RP server and stuff that happens in Oren or Urugan can affect Malinor. If people get kicked out of a military order in Oren, resort to banditry and raid your town to earn some gold, then it's just part of dynamic RP and you will have to deal with that in RP(by getting guards, etc.). Putting up OOC restrictions to stop any RP you don't like goes against everything this server is. Isolating your town from the rest of the server through OOC barriers is founded on meta(people have to meta that they can't raid you, etc.) and it means that your town is invincible and can even get away with raiding Oren or the Orcs without retribution.

 

That doesn't work on an RP server, unless you're actually recommending that we just ignore their RP until they go away.

I don't think they literally means ignore their RP(if they does then w/e). I think they just means that if you have a wall and a shut gate, raiders can't attack you and they might as well not be there for all the harm they can do. And so your townspeople can keep doing what they normally do while your guards laugh at the raiders, who'll eventually have to head home empty-handed.

[hex37 737]

 

Annoying **** like hiring guards and making a proper walls? If you're unwilling to do something as simple as hire a few guards, you deserve getting raided. Stop trying to use OOC barriers to stop dynamic RP, instead of simply using RP methods.

 You've not been reading. By annoying ****, I was referring to the OOC barriers.

 

I don't like OOC barriers, or hiding behind rules. I don't even think the people doing it now, or the people who have done it in the past even liked it. It's very stressful, especially in consideration of the flak they receive when they do.

 

The point is, players have been raiding so often and in such numbers that it comes to the point where things like OOC barriers the only available option. Keeping a city closed 24/7 isn't a great plan for engaging RP. It's suffocating, especially considering the High Elves, who are constantly low on people due to their closed door policy.

 

Even then, under the rules anyone can still declare PVP inside said cities. What then? Do we expel them just because we don't like how they play OOC? Is that any way to bridge this gap?

 

There is a solution to this, but it's not through rules, nor regulations. The solution is to stop hating each other so darn much. The real solution to all of this, people, is to stop being asses to each other.

[hellfiazz 879]

My attitude to raiding upon those who don't want it has changed.

I now think it's one of the largest reasons why there's widespread OOC conflict on the server.

Honestly, what's the point for the raiders? The Orcs are okay with raiding, the Dwarves are okay with raiding, and the humans are okay with raiding. That means for any one of them there's 2 potential targets, three for Orcs and Dwarves(with both Kaldonia and Vekaro). There's plenty of places to raid where there won't be OOC conflict.

Why then do you want to raid places that don't want it when all it causes is OOC conflict? The only reason I can think of is that you are purposefully bullying the players in those settlements, using the frustration it causes to them for your own personal entertainment. Which is something that should not be permitted at all, never mind allowed to happen in the rules.

[hex37 737]

Come to think of it, it might even be worth adding permakill to the server. If you want to make raids engaging, add a risk to doing such things. Make death be more than just a brief walk back to town and five minutes mining. Make losses affect you just as much as victory does.

 

End result sounds like less raids, more focus on peaceful RP, and a very simple way to stop others from killing you. Killing them. It's not like anyone can just power-game out of it anymore; PVP default.

 

#raises tiny umbrella to ward off the hail of disagreements.

 

 

EDIT: Actually, if I think about it, why do 90% of ban reports start? Because X killed Y. Adding more weight to killing will make  X  try to kill Y less often, for fear of dying himself. Therefore, less ban reports?

 

Or, you know, we could just stop being jerks to each other.

[argonian 14254]

You've not been reading. By annoying ****, I was referring to the OOC barriers.

 

I don't like OOC barriers, or hiding behind rules. I don't even think the people doing it now, or the people who have done it in the past even liked it. It's very stressful, especially in consideration of the flak they receive when they do.

 

The point is, players have been raiding so often and in such numbers that it comes to the point where things like OOC barriers the only available option. Keeping a city closed 24/7 isn't a great plan for engaging RP. It's suffocating, especially considering the High Elves, who are constantly low on people due to their closed door policy.

 

Even then, under the rules anyone can still declare PVP inside said cities. What then? Do we expel them just because we don't like how they play OOC? Is that any way to bridge this gap?

 

There is a solution to this, but it's not through rules, nor regulations. The solution is to stop hating each other so darn much. The real solution to all of this, people, is to stop being asses to each other.

You don't need to keep your city closed 24/7. Raiders will not come when the city is empty. All you have to do is hire guards to man the gates at peak times. They can let normal people in, but shut the gates if raiders try to charge in. The High Elf town doesn't seem to be that dead to me, but if it is, it's because they let pretty much no one in instead of just not letting dangerous people and raiders in, which is what I was suggesting.

[Cyndikate 2303]

 

History has shown that RP raids are impossible. They never work on a scale larger than 3 people on either side.

For those of you who think RP raids are impossible. You're doing it wrong. Maybe the Dark Brotherhood can teach you a thing or two about coordinated team attacks. I remember us doing frequent group attacks when assassinating political members in as many as 7 members. That was back when RP was actually default and there were no raiding rules at the time. I remember the Thieves Guild organizing a bank heist in Alras back in Asulon, there were quite a few players and both sides enjoyed the RP.

 

I remember back in the day in Salvus asulon where villains groups were fully capable of holding the entire city hostage. All of it was in RP, no PVP was involved. Those players were very coordinated and organized, and even the victim enjoyed the RP. Oh and did I mention that Salvus back in the day was a No-PVP zone? Did I also mention that back in those days PVP was default anyway?

 

For those of you who think RP raids are impossible, either you're doing it wrong, or choose to not try. Dark Brotherhood, Master Thieves Guild and the random Bandit guild pulled such things off well. If you can't be creative in a no-PVP zone, then leave such players alone. They want no part of your PVP factions bullshit, and want to preserve the little RP the server has left. If they don't find PVP fun, stop bothering them and go PVP somewhere else. 

 

And Aislinn, adding build protection to a region is just as much OOC barrier as the No-PVP flags. WorldGuard in itself is an OOC Barrier.

[MediocreGamer 838]

For those of you who think RP raids are impossible. You're doing it wrong. Maybe the Dark Brotherhood can teach you a thing or two about coordinated team attacks. I remember us doing frequent group attacks when assassinating political members in as many as 7 members. That was back when RP was actually default and there were no raiding rules at the time. I remember the Thieves Guild organizing a bank heist in Alras back in Asulon, there were quite a few players and both sides enjoyed the RP.

 

 

 

It simply requires competence from both parties, but that is too much to ask for from the general populace of LoTC.

[DrakeHaze. 2524]

It simply requires competence from both parties, but that is too much to ask for from the general populace of LoTC.

Welcome to Highschool, would you like cliques with that?

[Helbolt 129]

Come to think of it, it might even be worth adding permakill to the server. If you want to make raids engaging, add a risk to doing such things. Make

 

1) I kind of like this idea.  It would solve many problems.  Perma-kill will never be a thing here, but what if, when you die via another player (not mobs) you must stay dead for 1 hour.  Maybe you become a ghost and can't pick anything up but can float around and watch others?  That would solve several issues with rule breaking and many complaints. 

 

2) I think raid time limits and/or number of people limits is limiting to my character and here is why:   I rarely raid.  I often don't have any IC reason.  To be honest, IC my toon disliked fighting the dwarves in Anthos because they had been nothing but nice to him.  However, on the one or two occasions it has occurred that I needed to raid someone with troops, I couldn't.  Why?  Because other people had already raided them, like they always do, every day just because.  Now, I understand, this seems like a good argument to limit raids.  BUT -> What about the role play I am being denied as a responsible player because others are off "having their fun."  Should I never get to enjoy this type of RP because some people want to do it every day?  I think the rules need to be written in such a way to allow those of us who wait for real IC reasons (and don't raid all the time) to be given a chance to participate.  If you want responsible people to lead raids and role play them like the defending party deserves, the rules need to be written in such a way to allow us to participate.  We shouldn't be denied just because someone else already raided, especially when its been over 3 months (real life) since we last participated in a raid.  For those of you thinking, you saw me a few days ago standing near a raid, I was and when the GM said there were too many people, I was also one of the first ones to back out and watch from a distance.  I got shot a few times, but I still did not engage per the GM's request.  Caused no deaths, only took fire.

 

3)  Don't remove moats, pit traps, and ankle biters.  Not only are they realistic (pitch, soldier arrow slits, and the other things they represent), doing this would hurt the defenders (aka the ones who don't want to be attacked).  I have often wondered why no one has had the intelligence to simply trap raiders inside a gate, role play with them, and then send them all to their doom while they attack.  Most of the fortifications I have built in the fringe have the ability to kill 5, 10, 15 players in 4 or so seconds with only 1 person in complete safety.... if they choose to raid.  Do this a few times, and you may find that the attackers think twice before attacking you again.  Pointing out that those who fail to defend themselves often get attacked is not only a LOTC lesson, its also a good life lesson. 

[spqrSancus 175]

I like everything but the "no no-pvp flags". Whilst it does make sense what you said about it lessening server cohesion, due to isolationism of both groups, at the moment this still caters quite heavily to mechanics PvPers. If a majority system were in place of our current PvP and former RP default rules, I would very happily agree with you, but as it is, I believe this is the best balance,

[Ventusyr 233]

1) I kind of like this idea.  It would solve many problems.  Perma-kill will never be a thing here, but what if, when you die via another player (not mobs) you must stay dead for 1 hour.  Maybe you become a ghost and can't pick anything up but can float around and watch others?  That would solve several issues with rule breaking and many complaints. 

 

2) I think raid time limits and/or number of people limits is limiting to my character and here is why:   I rarely raid.  I often don't have any IC reason.  To be honest, IC my toon disliked fighting the dwarves in Anthos because they had been nothing but nice to him.  However, on the one or two occasions it has occurred that I needed to raid someone with troops, I couldn't.  Why?  Because other people had already raided them, like they always do, every day just because.  Now, I understand, this seems like a good argument to limit raids.  BUT -> What about the role play I am being denied as a responsible player because others are off "having their fun."  Should I never get to enjoy this type of RP because some people want to do it every day?  I think the rules need to be written in such a way to allow those of us who wait for real IC reasons (and don't raid all the time) to be given a chance to participate.  If you want responsible people to lead raids and role play them like the defending party deserves, the rules need to be written in such a way to allow us to participate.  We shouldn't be denied just because someone else already raided, especially when its been over 3 months (real life) since we last participated in a raid.  For those of you thinking, you saw me a few days ago standing near a raid, I was and when the GM said there were too many people, I was also one of the first ones to back out and watch from a distance.  I got shot a few times, but I still did not engage per the GM's request.  Caused no deaths, only took fire.

 

3)  Don't remove moats, pit traps, and ankle biters.  Not only are they realistic (pitch, soldier arrow slits, and the other things they represent), doing this would hurt the defenders (aka the ones who don't want to be attacked).  I have often wondered why no one has had the intelligence to simply trap raiders inside a gate, role play with them, and then send them all to their doom while they attack.  Most of the fortifications I have built in the fringe have the ability to kill 5, 10, 15 players in 4 or so seconds with only 1 person in complete safety.... if they choose to raid.  Do this a few times, and you may find that the attackers think twice before attacking you again.  Pointing out that those who fail to defend themselves often get attacked is not only a LOTC lesson, its also a good life lesson. 

 

1) Oo I like this idea. I was about to say no because of mob deaths but if it was somehow coded so this only happened from pvp deaths, then this would be wonderful! People won't want to raid as much for fear of not being able to play for an hour, which decreases OOC anger all around without instituting permakill (which not many like)! Yay!

 

2) I wish more raiders were like you, you seem like a genuinely fair raider who just got stuck in a bad position because raiders couldn't control themselves.

 

3) Traps are indeed realistic. If you don't want to die quickly, don't raid. Unfortunately, guards, when off-duty, have difficulty catching bandits before they come into the city. They are too quick.

 

 

For those of you saying the conclave got raided because they couldn't defend themselves properly, goodness gracious, you saw things in a very warped way. Every time I witnessed a raid, the guards won, because it was filled with warriors and stuff. A guard force wasn't necessarily needed because it was frequented by mages and adventurers and "edgies." Only when the warriors and those who cared enough to pvp logged out did raiders really win. The point is not who was stronger, the point is that it was supplying weak, stale, repetitive roleplay that was utterly pointless on both sides, from an rp perspective. Several times, raids I've seen haven't even make sense; a band of uruks once attacked the Leniel mansion while a Harbinger was attacking as well. Just recently, bandits strode into Kal'Arkon while a giant obsidian portal SMOKING in plain sight with a crowd of people watching and demanded everybody drop their weapons and armor. It's just stupid. Raiders need restrictions because it seems most of them don't have an rp reason or logic for their desire for items.

 

Just my two sense. Raiders really shouldn't get many rights because they are barging into other people's roleplay and essentially saying their's deserves more attention. If you're going to make that claim, make it good roleplay. 

[K00l 72]

bring bak canons!!!

[brotherpig123 38]

Just. Be. Cool.

 

 

Chris Lilley is the best actor, he won a Logie award (Australian Oscar)