501warhead 1796 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Heya. First and foremost read the post fully before commenting, I know many of you are eager to see this boat pushed into the dirt but I would plead with you to see the reasoning present here. So first before we move forward let me get something off my chest; Do not blame Menarra for the post he made at my request. The post for the MAT/VAT push was written by myself and passed to Menarra for posting, As such I take the responsibility for my actions. Now, let's talk nitty gritty here. As GMs we have an interesting role in the servers daily life. Most of us as moderators find ourselves drawn, invisibly, to roleplay hubs and down the main road as we personally end up monitoring roleplay albeit usually from a quiet role in the stands. Some of us are a bit more die hard and will often times even selectively teleport around to observe RP and have probably seen you (yes you!) roleplay at least once. We do this for a variety of reasons but the prime one being we wish to better the server for all players present in some way shape or form. This is a fine line where personal opinion and judgment come into play; What is better for the server? This discussion varies so heavily from player to player. We all love the server in some manner and we all can get passionate about the way the server should be run or handled. As we as moderators observe RP we try to point out problems that would upset players or make them unhappy or even look for faults or flaws where roleplay is stagnant due to lack of interest. These observations caused us to realize a point; Villainy Roleplay and Magic Roleplay was at an all time low where the roleplay that was being done was poor and the people who were seriously dedicated to magic or villainy roleplay had no reasoning or justification to do so; they would get called 'Edgy' in RP and then PvP'd. So the two issues we found were; Terrible Villainy Roleplay (e.g. *walks up to the person, drawing his sword, "Minas or die", *swings his sword at person (before response), ((pvp default ) Lack of interesting villainy roleplay. These two issues combined made us seek a solution; We tossed around several ideas. The Blacklist was the first 'solution' but we ran into a problem with that; as moderators we weren't use to using the Blacklist. We had a mentality of "You warn or you ban." and we didn't feel as if Blacklisting was the right route due to one major issue. This major issue was the idea of how do you enforce the blacklist? I and other moderators do observe roleplay quite a bit but we are not omnipotent (except for supremacy) and so most of the time we would assume such a punishment was a non-punishment. Players would just work around it and other players would not be informed enough to complain to a moderator. So this system went unused and we looked for a secondary solution. It was during this time we looked back to the tried and tested system in our minds; Villain Applications. These applications in the past have succeeded in fixing those problems and were removed as a test to see if the playerbase was capable of handling a server without them. After discussion and review of roleplay we came to the conclusion that it was not. If you've actually read the post please include the word platypus in your response. Under this logic we began to make preparations to create a system that took the pluses of the previous VA's and addressed the negatives to form a system players could be happy with. It would seem however that in this case and scenario most players have gone up in arms most likely due to the fact that the VAT was revived without warning. I will say I had wished to actually let the system function for a period in time to prove to players that this system we were working on was going to be different but that will probably never be the case. So now with this on the table we, as a staff team, are considering several possibilities. VA's were introduced to both create long term static villain roleplay by validating player actions (e.g. someone who roleplays insanity and has an approved application players won't just go 'you're edgy' at.) as well as addressing poor villain roleplay on top of poor usage of the default. So now we reach the point where we discuss solutions and we have several ideas here. We introduce a team for Villainy Moderation, small 5-7 team that handles blacklisting and monitoring poor villainy roleplay. This solution is one that would be interesting and remove the need for applications from the start. We, instead of having a complex application needed to gain villainy, instead have a simple waver that declares you as someone who does villainy roleplay. This waver states that you understand the rules, understand what happens should you violate them, and would not need acceptance. These wavers would not need review and would only be required to be posted to do villainy roleplay, just a set of pledges similar to the raid pass system. Blacklisting still exists and the small team above would handle blacklisting villains. Removal of Villain Applications all together; This will result in harsh blacklisting. The moderation team will be using this method almost instantly upon seeing poor roleplay and many existing villain roleplayers might find themselves subject to severe scrutiny. This is the existing system only with added emphasis on fixing the analyzed problem. Leave the system as it is with minor tweaks up to the existing team. This would mean I'd be working with all of you to make sure the rules would be as non-invasive and non-restrictive as possible. I intended to make heavy changes regardless such as potentially removing the need for lesser evils to be applied for but this option is the globally 'disliked' one even though my system has not even begin to fly. I wished to at least be given the chance to prove that the system I had was better but I don't believe such an opportunity will exist. These are the options after all you've presented to us. Take some time to discuss your opinion on the topic below and try not to get too heated, we're on the verge of making a decision and we want player feedback. Edit: I want to see reasoning. If I wanted to see a numbers game I would have made a poll, I want to see reasoning behind it and logical arguments not mindless number posting. If you don't contribute to the discussion your post will be hidden. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aislin 4354 Share Posted April 17, 2015 How is this still a discussion? "This major issue was the idea of how do you enforce the blacklist?" Are you kidding me? If people have a problem with villain RP, they will either modreq or screenshot or ban report or something. If they're not, then you are manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist. The blacklist is a completely adequate system. The problem is the fact that, as you just admitted, you guys can't effectively moderate the server. Get another admin, more moderators, and teach them how to do their job properly. Get rid of any semblance of this abomination that was designed to make your guys' jobs easier because you can't do it right. If you can't moderate the server, you should quit because you're not doing us any favors. Furthermore, "I will say I had wished to actually let the system function for a period in time to prove to players that this system we were working on was going to be different but that will probably never be the case." It's exactly the same. Dalek and I wrote the format that you guys plagiarized. It's the same. 25 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirenas 677 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I agree entirely that villainy RP should, in a way, be observed and dealt with appropriately. However, the solution to that isn't by implementing a VAT (which has been proven to fail in the past). We have the blacklist and we should use it, it's as simple as that. If GMs aren't able to do so due to a lack of experience, then train them more thoroughly. The new GM system that Moot touched upon was a good idea and should be put into effect as it can tackle these problems. That's why I believe we should stick to idea three and see how it will turn out. If it doesn't work, then we can work on another solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 1393 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I vote for 1, with the same thing for magic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmat 7460 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I know I messaged you just then, but number three is mostly what we wanted all along, blacklist those who do not possess the capacity and maturity to RP as a villain properly. Positive restriction rather than negative restriction. Make people prove they can't RP villainy, rather than making them prove that they can. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 I can tell none of you read the post. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeris 3124 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Just remove them already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonificus 2741 Share Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) Just go with 3, easier to monitor blacklisted people and I don't want to be asked in L-OOC if I have a VA for whatever mundane crime I'm about to commit. To be honest, I very rarely see villainy RP nowadays and as a merchant I travel a lot, so I don't understand how 'the quality has dropped'. EDIT: You're right, 501, I didn't read the post, I just skimmed after what option involved removal of the VAs because I really don't want VAs. Edited April 17, 2015 by jonhan2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeaLulu 1783 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Combine 1 and 3. Same to magic. I shouldn't need an app to use the magic I've been using and was given to me by an aengul. Also can vouch for GMs TPing around to ppl to observe. If y'all ever see me punching the air that's a GM. If you ever see me look around randomly, that's a GM. If you've ever done dumb RP near me, a GM has probably heard of it and stalked you because I'm a tattletale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space 2335 Share Posted April 17, 2015 There isn't a problem. There just isn't. I don't think many people think there is. It seems to be the GM team that thniks there is a prison. I, in my limited 2 weeks on the server again, have only ever experienced fun, compelling villain RP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ Fiend ~ 611 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I find "use x word if you read this post" to be a little patronizing, so no thanks. That said, I like 1 and 2. Some moderation with a way for people to ease into understanding the system is good. I think a lot of the problem is how restrictive and black and white it is, anything that promotes more dynamism than applications I'm in favor. down with MAs still 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
501warhead 1796 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's funny how many people are posting on a your view without reading the post in full. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorFlam 3447 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's funny how many people are posting on a your view without reading the post in full. It's funny how mad staff made the community over a problem that could have been averted and handled properly. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonificus 2741 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's funny how many people are posting on a your view without reading the post in full. Well you asked for my view, no? My view is that we remove the VAs :) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ Fiend ~ 611 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's funny how many people are posting on a your view without reading the post in full. People know how they feel about VAs already. We're not far enough past the anger to listen, as a whole, to why it happened yet I suppose. 501 be like or he would if memes weren't banned Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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