[Lore Revision][Magic] Clericism

[Samsan99 274]

7 minutes ago, Ventusyr said:

 

-sniped-

 

Ahh I do think that is a much better way to have it still not keen on the time but I see why it works but I do enjoy the middle ground there is no willing/unwilling gap.

[Ventusyr 232]

14 minutes ago, Samsan99 said:

 

Ahh I do think that is a much better way to have it still not keen on the time but I see why it works but I do enjoy the middle ground there is no willing/unwilling gap.

 

Of course. The time is being debated, but three weeks, I felt, was enough time to bring RP from the disconnection. It may be lengthened, it may be shorter. Which would you rather?

[Gone 868]

Just stick with Tsu's lore when it comes to disconnection. If they're willing then the effects go away over time. If not willing it never goes away. It's simpler that way and besides being disconnected is supposed to be a seriously damaging and life altering event. Something that characters should fear or at least not look forward to.

 

I also highly disagree with suddenly making warding and blessings accessible to a newly connected cleric. Those were always high leveled spells. It isn't like healing so it's learning an entirely new way to manipulate the light. Requires learning basic fundamentals of alteration. Required war cleric capabilities as well meaning you had to learn that first. 

I asked some more experienced players about these spells and had it basically explained as "you're sustaining otherworldly magics unconsciously" which is incredibly difficult. Someone who's just been connected shouldn't be learning this stuff.

Clerics are always praised as the best healers. Thus a new cleric should learn and master healing first. If you wanna then skip war cleric and let them learn warding and blessings next I'd be fine with that honestly provided they've mastered healing and thus grown strong enough to handle attempting a ward or blessing.

[Ventusyr 232]

1 hour ago, Tiliena said:

Just stick with Tsu's lore when it comes to disconnection. If they're willing then the effects go away over time. If not willing it never goes away. It's simpler that way and besides being disconnected is supposed to be a seriously damaging and life altering event. Something that characters should fear or at least not look forward to.

 

I also highly disagree with suddenly making warding and blessings accessible to a newly connected cleric. Those were always high leveled spells. It isn't like healing so it's learning an entirely new way to manipulate the light. Requires learning basic fundamentals of alteration. Required war cleric capabilities as well meaning you had to learn that first. 

I asked some more experienced players about these spells and had it basically explained as "you're sustaining otherworldly magics unconsciously" which is incredibly difficult. Someone who's just been connected shouldn't be learning this stuff.

Clerics are always praised as the best healers. Thus a new cleric should learn and master healing first. If you wanna then skip war cleric and let them learn warding and blessings next I'd be fine with that honestly provided they've mastered healing and thus grown strong enough to handle attempting a ward or blessing.

 

... So if the cleric doesn't fear disconnection... Then the effects go away after a time... I notice a bit of an issue in logic. it may be simpler, but in practice, it binds people already salty about losing their connection to the cleric community permanently by forcing them to roleplay their character being a broken mess. I'd rather have a flat disconnection rate for everybody that is temporary with an exception for masters who do not go on to work for other deities.

 

The key word for that view of blessing is was. I have heard the "sustaining otherworldly magics unconsciously" explanation, but... What does that even mean. Prior to the publishing of my first lore, there were a total of three clerics who knew blessing, all semi to not active, and so the majority of clerics never saw it in practice. It wasn't in our roleplay, and in the end, that's the only important thing: whether or not it creates good roleplay. Having it be only accessible to masters of the art is not creating good roleplay unless the masters are active all the time.

 

Clerical blessing is better thought of as simply alteration with a different power source, and in every place it is written down in the closest to lore clerics had, that is what it was defined as. In practice, that is what it is, and the lore I have written redefines it so it is no longer requiring of an incredible connection. It's more tiring, but it is not incredibly difficult. I'm trying to dispell the rampant elitism that plagues magic on this server and make it accessible to anybody who feels like being a holy enchanter (which, as a new player, all you can do is small aesthetic boons anyways) so people can actually roleplay with it.

 

However, considering this protest has been brought up already, I shall convene with the clerical community and see what people want.

 

EDIT: A middle ground has been decided. I will clarify blessing's difficulty and the alien concept of summoning a finite amount of light, thus making blessings done by younger clerics nigh-useless but technically still possible. In this way, it shall only be something that clerics attempt only when they have a significant control over Light, and have conceptual knowledge of how to go about blessing an object..

[Gone 868]

8 hours ago, Ventusyr said:

 

... So if the cleric doesn't fear disconnection... Then the effects go away after a time...

I not once said that??? 

Characters should fear disconnection no matter if they are unwillingly being disconnected or volunteer for it. After all it's ripping out the connection, the powers, and damaging your soul. There's simply no way to put that nicely. But fearing it or not has no effect on the disconnection itself. I just think your 'change' is only going to make it so people stop rp'ing that fear of it.

I personally would say that disconnection effects should be permanent no matter how they're disconnected but the current lore behind disconnection states: 

"A willing disconnection, however, is more common -- the wielder can no longer adequately fight beneath the Aenguldaemon or they’ve decided to leave all together. This, however, does unfortunately leave a fracture on the soul albeit different from the forced, the effects of the disconnection are temporary instead of permanent."

 

The point I was trying to make on disconnection is that you shouldn't be making your own lore up. Follow what is already established.

 

 

9 hours ago, Ventusyr said:

I have heard the "sustaining otherworldly magics unconsciously" explanation, but... What does that even mean.

Think about it. A ward works whether the creator of it is there or not. Thus you could say it is being sustained without conscious effort on the cleric's part. There is no way that a brand new cleric, who doesn't even know how to sustain calling the light forth, can do that. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Ventusyr said:

Prior to the publishing of my first lore, there were a total of three clerics who knew blessing, all semi to not active, and so the majority of clerics never saw it in practice. It wasn't in our roleplay, and in the end, that's the only important thing: whether or not it creates good roleplay. Having it be only accessible to masters of the art is not creating good roleplay unless the masters are active all the time.

So have other high level clerics be taught it, not low levels. Once a cleric has finished learning healing then ask them if they'd like to next add war cleric or if they'd rather add blessings and wards to their skills. But no one who's still learning healing, still learning how to manipulate the light, should be even touching blessings or wards. They're simply too advanced. If it's not popping up in your roleplay then maybe people don't want it around or you should look at the people who could learn it, aka the clerics done learning healing, and ask why they're not trying to learn this. Someone who just learned fire evocation and has made a massive fire tornado could be good roleplay but it's not possible. You do not learn advanced spells before you can even control the light properly. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Ventusyr said:

Clerical blessing is better thought of as simply alteration with a different power source, and in every place it is written down in the closest to lore clerics had, that is what it was defined as. In practice, that is what it is, and the lore I have written redefines it so it is no longer requiring of an incredible connection. It's more tiring, but it is not incredibly difficult. I'm trying to dispell the rampant elitism that plagues magic on this server and make it accessible to anybody who feels like being a holy enchanter (which, as a new player, all you can do is small aesthetic boons anyways) so people can actually roleplay with it.

Again, warding and blessing is an entirely different way to manipulate the light. Someone who is learning how to manipulate it in the first place can't then at the same time be learning how to manipulate it in a completely different way. It just doesn't work like that no matter what you want oocly. 

 

Saying something is "tiring, but not incredibly difficult" is also contradicting. Why's it tiring then? 

 

If someone wants to be a holy enchanter literally nothing is stopping them other than time. If they're willing to put the time into their roleplay and learn it properly then they can do whatever they want. There's no elitism here. It is simply a matter of what is possible and what isn't. Besides, the time it takes to learn clerical skills looks relatively short so there should be no issue in someone mastering healing first, thus mastering their control of the light, before moving onto their "holy enchanter" dream.

Before you say it's not a short time lets look at the way your tiers are set up. It looks like a cleric is tier five in a skill after 24 weeks (around 6 months) and 3 days. Which is rather short when compared to a druid for example who hits tier five in one skill after practicing it for a year. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Ventusyr said:

EDIT: A middle ground has been decided. I will clarify blessing's difficulty and the alien concept of summoning a finite amount of light, thus making blessings done by younger clerics nigh-useless but technically still possible. In this way, it shall only be something that clerics attempt only when they have a significant control over Light, and have conceptual knowledge of how to go about blessing an object..

Also this section makes no sense to me. You're saying younger clerics can still bless but then also saying that they won't attempt until they have significant control over Light. When are you claiming their control is significant enough? If they need significant control then attempts by younger clerics should be impossible.

[Ventusyr 232]

24 minutes ago, Tiliena said:

I not once said that??? 

Characters should fear disconnection no matter if they are unwillingly being disconnected or volunteer for it. After all it's ripping out the connection, the powers, and damaging your soul. There's simply no way to put that nicely. But fearing it or not has no effect on the disconnection itself. I just think your 'change' is only going to make it so people stop rp'ing that fear of it.

I personally would say that disconnection effects should be permanent no matter how they're disconnected but the current lore behind disconnection states: 

"A willing disconnection, however, is more common -- the wielder can no longer adequately fight beneath the Aenguldaemon or they’ve decided to leave all together. This, however, does unfortunately leave a fracture on the soul albeit different from the forced, the effects of the disconnection are temporary instead of permanent."

 

The point I was trying to make on disconnection is that you shouldn't be making your own lore up. Follow what is already established.

 

 

A cleric who chooses to go through the disconnection process does not fear it, and they are the ones who get let off from the effects. However, do to this being the fourth time people have had issues with this form of disconnection, and you're right, there's established disconnection lore, I'll remove it and edit said disconnection section to reflect that.

 

28 minutes ago, Tiliena said:

They're simply too advanced. If it's not popping up in your roleplay then maybe people don't want it around or you should look at the people who could learn it, aka the clerics done learning healing, and ask why they're not trying to learn this. Someone who just learned fire evocation and has made a massive fire tornado could be good roleplay but it's not possible. You do not learn advanced spells before you can even control the light properly. 

 

Blessing for low-tier clerics was nothing more than minor aesthetic stuff, nothing incredibly complex. Its legitimately holy alteration. A Tier 1 Voidal alterationist would be able to make tiny enchantments; thats what I was trying to do with this lore.

 

31 minutes ago, Tiliena said:

 

Again, warding and blessing is an entirely different way to manipulate the light. Someone who is learning how to manipulate it in the first place can't then at the same time be learning how to manipulate it in a completely different way. It just doesn't work like that no matter what you want oocly. 

 

Saying something is "tiring, but not incredibly difficult" is also contradicting. Why's it tiring then? 

 

 

This is an excellent point. That was also conflicting wording. I meant "difficult" when I should have written "complex"

 

34 minutes ago, Tiliena said:

 

Also this section makes no sense to me. You're saying younger clerics can still bless but then also saying that they won't attempt until they have significant control over Light. When are you claiming their control is significant enough? If they need significant control then attempts by younger clerics should be impossible.

 

In the same way a Voidal alterationist's enchantments are unstable and weak, so are a Tier 1 holy alterationist. However, considering the general negative response to this system of blessing, I suppose I'll just write in that it can't be approached until after reaching T4 or something in one of the branches. I'll think on exact numbers.

 

38 minutes ago, Tiliena said:

 

Before you say it's not a short time lets look at the way your tiers are set up. It looks like a cleric is tier five in a skill after 24 weeks (around 6 months) and 3 days. Which is rather short when compared to a druid for example who hits tier five in one skill after practicing it for a year. 

 

Genuine curiosity. What is the established rate of progression for magic on the server? I've heard six months and I've heard a year, and I was trying to reflect that in this lore. Which is more in-line with how most magics do things? I am aware that tiers are no longer canon, but I would like to have clerics reflect the cultural standard.

[Wretched 2038]

Under review.

[Wretched 2038]

This lore has been denied

 

I believe Farryn was going to go to you on the reason(s) why.

 

Moved to denied lore.