Looking for feedback on stopping "clique" magic

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13 hours ago, KetchenX said:

I wouldn't say cliques are necessarily bad and they should be expected. The one thing I had a problem a time ago was when I got a TA for a certain "cliquey" magic, I was then promptly told by a member of the MT that if I ever taught anyone, he would find a way to blacklist me from all magic. That is the kind of **** that needs to stop, it shouldn't be a problem for people to want to break the clique mentality and by gods they should not be punished for it.

(That Mt member is no longer so that's good.)

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you better not teach anyone shifting kid or ill hunt you down irl and post your address on 4chan...

 

 

I was linked this thread on Discord, so I'll type up a response to it. Magic being cliquey is a problem, that is something everyone agrees with. That's a premise no one disputes. But there is one major assumption being made in this argument that is problematic. That magic being rare is equivalent to magic being cliquey. Magic should be rare, so it's actually magic. If it's common it just becomes the science of the world, which is what magic is currently. This is a stance I held throughout my multiple tenures on the LT and MT, and I still stand by it. Cliques are bad; magic should be rare.

 

Now, the human issue is something that can largely be attributed to two factors. The first being the culture of humans is generally anti-magic, and that is something staff should not intervene with. The second factor, the factor which should be solved, is the short lifespan of humans leading to potential magic players not making humans. Perhaps what could be done is to make the 'lesser Archon' thing that the Archons had originally discussed when we had first been accepted. A creature that can be made by oneself, without having to communicate with the Archon clique. Other potential solutions could just be a feat, as I had read in this thread; or to make the alchemical legends fully canon.

 

Guilds have a solid potential to alleviate any clique issues, as long as anyone can join the guild by being competent. Difficult to implement, but it's a temporary solution to the issue.

 

 

Rare magic = good

Cliquey magic = bad

Rare magic =/= cliquey magic

[Stag 3230]

I hope I am not seen as clique-y. I taught a few friends Celestialism so that I could easily monitor and communicate its initial growth. Arcanism has become the thematic cultural magic of the high elves and while it is teacher-locked I still see a healthy diversity of applications being processed. So while I don’t really teach arcanism that much it is available to those who try & for the most part Celestialism is available as well. Obviously meant to be a more well-gaurded/rare magic RPly if you have arcanism you can learn Celestialism.

 

The issue I have seen personally is with students who want magic not because it will create RP for others but because they want different ways to roflstomp others. If you RP magic and don’t offer anything besides the ability to kill people with it I believe you are being a bad magic RPer. 

[Dromui 755]

Somewhere on this thread it was posted removing the ability to disconnect people from magic is a good idea, and I'd heavily have to disagree with that. If players are clearly not capable of roleplaying the magic they have been granted, it's up to the higher ups of any magic to axe them as quickly as possible. Obviously they should have chances, be sat down and have what they are doing wrong explained to them, but if they aren't making any changes they need to get disconnected. The more open magic becomes, the shittier the quality of roleplay gets. I'd honestly rather have the magics controlled by people unwilling to hand them out. At least at that point, when a necromancer rolls into a town with ghouls, it won't be the fifth time this week. It would be a rare occurrence, making that general roleplay a more interesting scenario as it's not happening on the daily. 

 

If the standard of roleplay is worse because of anything, whatever that reason is should be removed. In this case, I feel it's more due to the fact of WAY too many types of magic and magical creatures. Wouldn't hurt to have the LT comb through what exists that is relatively pointless or shitty and remove it. And then once that's done, take another look at the RP standard and the situation with magic and cliques. If both are still bad, I'd suggest mass genocide against poorly played characters and magics.

[drfate786 1690]

2 hours ago, Skale said:

Somewhere on this thread it was posted removing the ability to disconnect people from magic is a good idea, and I'd heavily have to disagree with that. If players are clearly not capable of roleplaying the magic they have been granted, it's up to the higher ups of any magic to axe them as quickly as possible. Obviously they should have chances, be sat down and have what they are doing wrong explained to them, but if they aren't making any changes they need to get disconnected. The more open magic becomes, the shittier the quality of roleplay gets. I'd honestly rather have the magics controlled by people unwilling to hand them out. At least at that point, when a necromancer rolls into a town with ghouls, it won't be the fifth time this week. It would be a rare occurrence, making that general roleplay a more interesting scenario as it's not happening on the daily. 

 

If the standard of roleplay is worse because of anything, whatever that reason is should be removed. In this case, I feel it's more due to the fact of WAY too many types of magic and magical creatures. Wouldn't hurt to have the LT comb through what exists that is relatively pointless or shitty and remove it. And then once that's done, take another look at the RP standard and the situation with magic and cliques. If both are still bad, I'd suggest mass genocide against poorly played characters and magics.

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If someone is not capable of roleplaying a magic properly it is up to the magic team to axe them, not players. With that logic we should be giving everyone a blue tag and hope they don't ban people they dislike. Giving players disconnection magic allows them to do whatever they want with it, get rid of it.

[Dromui 755]

1 minute ago, drfate786 said:

 

If someone is not capable of roleplaying a magic properly it is up to the magic team to axe them, not players. With that logic we should be giving everyone a blue tag and hope they don't ban people they dislike. Giving players disconnection magic allows them to do whatever they want with it, get rid of it.

 

 

Relying on the staff alone to manage this server is a bad idea. For a lot of reasons. More likely than not, there are people on the teams that are less than capable, and I highly doubt a lot of these people are dedicating as much effort is necessary considering they aren't getting paid for it. Letting the veteran members of the community who are more than capable to manage roleplay oriented things, in character, would help the roleplay itself run more smoothly.

[drfate786 1690]

2 minutes ago, Skale said:

 

Relying on the staff alone to manage this server is a bad idea. For a lot of reasons. More likely than not, there are people on the teams that are less than capable, and I highly doubt a lot of these people are dedicating as much effort is necessary considering they aren't getting paid for it. Letting the veteran members of the community who are more than capable to manage roleplay oriented things, in character, would help the roleplay itself run more smoothly.

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Okay, then let's give everyone disconnection magic with that logic, let's also give everyone server admin right? I mean, with your logic veteran players some of whom are known to be biased while not in staff would be better staffers then the current MT right?

[Dromui 755]

1 minute ago, drfate786 said:

 

Okay, then let's give everyone disconnection magic with that logic, let's also give everyone server admin right? I mean, with your logic veteran players some of whom are known to be biased while not in staff would be better staffers then the current MT right?

 

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. My logic is literally stating the MT and veteran players who have any level of magic control in RP should be working together, to ensure the highest standard of RP. When dark arts were OOC gate kept by the likes of Tsuyose, Slic3man, etc., the magic was well roleplayed and the standard of magic was much higher. I personally believe having people to manage it together, with the MT, would help. And I hate to say it, but a clique based system of control creates a higher standard.

[drfate786 1690]

4 minutes ago, Skale said:

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. My logic is literally stating the MT and veteran players who have any level of magic control in RP should be working together, to ensure the highest standard of RP. When dark arts were OOC gate kept by the likes of Tsuyose, Slic3man, etc., the magic was well roleplayed and the standard of magic was much higher. I personally believe having people to manage it together, with the MT, would help. And I hate to say it, but a clique based system of control creates a higher standard.

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It doesn't create a higher standard, but that's not what we're discussing. Working together while it may sound like an ideal solution will only incite conflict since the MT will seek to outright remove disconnection for stupid RP reasons. Ie, if I'm a necro and I went out and went rogue against the rest of the coven then the current gravelord would send an army of raving liches to come and "clot" me and I would have no choice in the matter and no way to reverse the clotting. The same applies for almost any magic on the server currently. So if you're worried about the standards of RP not being met then that is because all the good magic roleplayers that want to generate good RP are being disconnected for trying to deviate. Giving players the ability to moderate magic will always end in some form of abuse in which the players aren't held liable for "Rp reasons". Meanwhile, MT ARE held liable when they abuse their positions and can be blacklisted from staff for doing so. Moderating magic means that the people moderating it must also be moderated, lest it be abused. Disconnection is too difficult to moderate and will get out of control, it has to be removed.

[LatzMomo 2088]

I think that magic cliques are okay. but a real problem I see if often there is not a mundane way to recreate what magic can do, so if you need the assistance of a magic healer for blight, or if you need to stave off the spread of corruption, you're SOL because they hardly exist, and those who do seem bitter and unapproachable, especially to humans.

 

I don't think Magic should be more inclusive, I just think it should be less vital to making your character powerful/relevant in RP I feel you should be able to recreate a lot of what magic does in a mundane way (Like setting up wards, making potions, and wielding religious symbols.), perhaps not as effectively, but the option should still be there.

[mitto 2312]

Moved to The Great Library. It shall be sorted into the appropriate category shortly.

 

If you feel this is a mistake, please contact myself or any FM and we'll restore it.