Void View - What do you think?

[xDK 1205]

9 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Definitely not a point of view I've considered or heard of before - While I think the character development whiplash, as you refer to it, isn't a current problem given Voidal Magic hasn't really changed since 2020, the point about the Tier system is definitely a new point to consider for me. 

 

On the one hand, as far as I know - every magic relies on the Tier System as its fundamentally written into the rules regarding TAs & Progression. On the other, there have been a few suggestions about offering mages the ability to invest another slot into a particular MA, therefore giving players a choice between being a jack of all trades with many magics, or a "master" within one/a few. Do you think such a concept would help bring back the idea of true mastery over a magic, and not simply 4 months of progression?

 

I think that to create a more interesting progression system, you could peg Tiers to the number of slots invested into them. For example, if someone puts all their slots into one magic, they can attain the highest tier in that and honestly master it. Those who spread their slots across multiple magics might be lower tiered in each.

The tier system would, therefore, be more than a means to an end, but rather an indicator of the seriousness/dedication that a character has within any given magic. It would also bring back a degree of depth and individuality in that the player would have to make important decisions on how to distribute the slots based on what kind of mage they intend to become.

What that would really mean is, by tying Tiers directly to slot investment, some feeling of mastery that I believe has been lost, could be returned. It would make the journey to Tier 5 feel like something more than a matter of time, and put more of an emphasis on specialization. Not everyone is supposed to run around as a Tier 5 evocationist, Tier 5 mages should be way more rare than they are currently.

[Cheese 8883]

18 hours ago, Laeonathan said:

What gives you the impression that transfig and artificery are useless?

 

I am asking that as someone who has had both for 2 years now and greatly enjoyed it.

I love transfiguration too and I've had it for well over a year, but I do think that with enchantment nerfs a lot of people no longer see any use in it. Artificery I also enjoyed when I had it, but only because my mastercraft was cool and I could make a familiar. Despite being meant to fit into the enchantment niche, it doesn't really do anything for enchanting; you obviously can't increase the number of enchantments made, you can't use enchantments to your own advantage (I remember sam once posted a now-denied addition that would let artificers bypass the extra charge emote for enchantments which I thought would have been really cool), and artificery doesn't have much else that I can think of that I think is practical in the day to day life of an enchanter

[PrimnyaQuorum 4000]

23 hours ago, xDK said:

I think that to create a more interesting progression system, you could peg Tiers to the number of slots invested into them. For example, if someone puts all their slots into one magic, they can attain the highest tier in that and honestly master it. Those who spread their slots across multiple magics might be lower tiered in each.

The tier system would, therefore, be more than a means to an end, but rather an indicator of the seriousness/dedication that a character has within any given magic. It would also bring back a degree of depth and individuality in that the player would have to make important decisions on how to distribute the slots based on what kind of mage they intend to become.

What that would really mean is, by tying Tiers directly to slot investment, some feeling of mastery that I believe has been lost, could be returned. It would make the journey to Tier 5 feel like something more than a matter of time, and put more of an emphasis on specialization. Not everyone is supposed to run around as a Tier 5 evocationist, Tier 5 mages should be way more rare than they are currently.

 

This echoes a sentiment I've heard other players refer to, though in another way - instead of offering more to people who invest additional slots, this seems to hinge around only offering everything to those who invest. In this case - how would TA's work? Would someone have to fully dedicate themselves to all slots in order to pick up a TA, or could they "learn" everything with the minimal amount invested and still put up and hold a TA?

 

I'm not sure if I agree with the idea of T5 mages being rare, per say - if you dedicate a long time to being a voidal mage, at some level you should reap the rewards (Higher mana pool, hard to break focus, etc) but I think the idea of not being able to utilize that fully unless one has dedicated themselves to a practice is a good start.

[xDK 1205]

3 hours ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

This echoes a sentiment I've heard other players refer to, though in another way - instead of offering more to people who invest additional slots, this seems to hinge around only offering everything to those who invest. In this case - how would TA's work? Would someone have to fully dedicate themselves to all slots in order to pick up a TA, or could they "learn" everything with the minimal amount invested and still put up and hold a TA?

 

I'm not sure if I agree with the idea of T5 mages being rare, per say - if you dedicate a long time to being a voidal mage, at some level you should reap the rewards (Higher mana pool, hard to break focus, etc) but I think the idea of not being able to utilize that fully unless one has dedicated themselves to a practice is a good start.

 

I want to first of thank you for this topic, as it has me reflecting a lot on aspects that I previously took for granted. I will attempt to answer your question, but it’ll take some clarification. I think the tier system, as it is now, is fundamentally flawed. It was implemented to create a mechanical balance, particularly in response to the “powergaming mage” issue, but in so doing, I think it has oversimplified what could be a more nuanced progression system.

One of the key takeaways regarding the tier system, especially with elemental void magic, is how the concept of "mastery" is defined. If you hit Tier 5, it's often regarded as if you have "mastered" the element in its entirety. Take fire evocation, for example: hitting Tier 5 is equated to suddenly mastering all aspects of fire, including explosions.

 

Quote

T5 - Master

The mage has completely mastered their Voidal art, able to manipulate their fire to a very fine degree as well as maintain a far greater concentration than before. They can use all the spells of fire evocation, as well as have the opportunity to make their fire combustive if they so wish.

"You did it, you beat the game!"

The same goes for all the other elemental evocations. They suddenly become infinitely more powerful. Doing such makes everything before Tier 5 a means to an end, rather than a journey of character development.

I think the druids already figured out the concept of mastery way back in Aegis. Even when a druid reached the utmost heights of their craft, they never would declare mastery over "all of nature." Instead, they created “sub-genres” related to their magic, reflecting exactly where their area of expertise was (vine druid, tree druid, flower druid etc.).
 
I feel a similar redefinition could help with void magic. Instead of making lower tiers feel like a rush to the top, the tiers could/should be about the process of learning and specializing any given magic. For example, in water evocation, Tiers 1 to 3 could deal with learning to become a “master” with water in its rawest form. From tier 3 and onwards the magic should focus on a gradual mastering of “sub-genres” (ice, steam, mist, rain etc.). This would create for a much more individual character experience, where every tier would stand for a meaningful step in the development process of the mage, not just for a countdown toward "complete mastery".

Now on TAs! People should not be required to use every single one of the slots to have a TA. Instead, they could reach some threshold at which they are able to teach the fundamentals, while teaching true mastery or specialization would require you to know more. I think that this would allow for teaching abilities within a spectrum while still preserving the idea that “true mastery takes dedication”.

All in all, there is probably more talented people who would be able to come up with a system whereby progressing through tiers is just as, if not more, rewarding as reaching tier 5.

[Jentos 9422]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:54 PM, Minuvas said:

Can we clarify where this idea of the void being evil comes from? 

>be me, voidal mage

>the void isn’t evil, that’s just stupid loreheads 

>create an actual wound in reality itself because I’m feeling silly 

>the hideous, many limbed form of a voidal horror props out its head 

> "are you evil"

>i don’t think it understood me, let me ask it again

>voidal horror tears me from limb to limb, casting me into the tear

>my soul is consumed, cast to nothingness

 

 

i find it very disappointing to see how far some people will go to try and depict the void as this neutral force. Technically voidal magic could be, but only Aelesh has ever written that lore. I guess it’s subjective but if you think ever so slowly drawing void incarnate closer to creation is a good thing, let alone a neutral thing - go ahead. Even connecting to the void makes pin prick holes in the veil technically, meaning that if enough mages connect at the same time across the world, the risk of a spillover greatens. Every map, there always ends up being a voidal invasion event, related to mages ******* around and finding out. Voidal mages to me are the epitome of selfish - they threaten more, ever slowly, the existence of all things and all lives, and use it for what? Throwing rocks and fireballs. 

Of course that’s the theoretical aspect. From a practical aspect voidal mage roleplay has always been lacking and has been taken over by a rather disgusting culture that mindlessly seeks to grow in power. 
 

Just yesterday the Azdrazi captured a voidal mage and threw him in our black cells, where they’d agreed not to ss until interrogation rp could be planned. Turns out they did ss, and turns out they did so they could go get even more magic (as the forum apps now profess), and couldn’t bear to wait for narratives sake (I told him when I’d be available). I can’t superimpose this on all voidal mage players but it’s these kind of events that remind me why I dropped all voidal magics. 
 

Players need to drop the constant urge and desire to just be more powerful. I remember actually wonderful studious and wizardly roleplaying occurring in the past - where voidal magic seemed so much more about discovery than mere power. It’s accessibility, perceived neutrality in the grand scheme, and effectiveness - make it a popular choice, for good and for bad. 

[satin 7600]

1 hour ago, Jentos said:

>be me, voidal mage

>the void isn’t evil, that’s just stupid loreheads 

>create an actual wound in reality itself because I’m feeling silly 

>the hideous, many limbed form of a voidal horror props out its head 

> "are you evil"

>i don’t think it understood me, let me ask it again

>voidal horror tears me from limb to limb, casting me into the tear

>my soul is consumed, cast to nothingness

 

 

i find it very disappointing to see how far some people will go to try and depict the void as this neutral force. Technically voidal magic could be, but only Aelesh has ever written that lore. I guess it’s subjective but if you think ever so slowly drawing void incarnate closer to creation is a good thing, let alone a neutral thing - go ahead. Even connecting to the void makes pin prick holes in the veil technically, meaning that if enough mages connect at the same time across the world, the risk of a spillover greatens. Every map, there always ends up being a voidal invasion event, related to mages ******* around and finding out. Voidal mages to me are the epitome of selfish - they threaten more, ever slowly, the existence of all things and all lives, and use it for what? Throwing rocks and fireballs. 

Of course that’s the theoretical aspect. From a practical aspect voidal mage roleplay has always been lacking and has been taken over by a rather disgusting culture that mindlessly seeks to grow in power. 
 

Just yesterday the Azdrazi captured a voidal mage and threw him in our black cells, where they’d agreed not to ss until interrogation rp could be planned. Turns out they did ss, and turns out they did so they could go get even more magic, and couldn’t bear to wait for narratives sake. I can’t superimpose this on all voidal mage players but it’s these kind of events that remind me why I dropped all voidal magics. 
 

Players need to drop the constant urge and desire to just be more powerful. I remember actually wonderful studious and wizardly roleplaying occurring in the past - where voidal magic seemed so much more about discovery than mere power. It’s accessibility, perceived neutrality in the grand scheme, and effectiveness - make it a popular choice, for good and for bad. 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[alexmagus 959]

58 minutes ago, satinkira said:

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

rep farm

[satin 7600]

Just now, alexmagus said:

rep farm

 

[alexmagus 959]

1 minute ago, satinkira said:

 

i wont take the bait i wont rep you for cute kitties

[satin 7600]

2 minutes ago, alexmagus said:

i wont take the bait i wont rep you for cute kitties

 

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[Aelesh 540]

2 hours ago, Jentos said:

Technically voidal magic could be, but only Aelesh has ever written that lore.

I thought about replying, chose not to, but now I've been invoked...

 

I actually wrote a long diatribe about how the Void isn't just evil, but the root of all evil in the LOTC setting.  All strife that the descendants experience today can be traced back to the Void.  I am in complete agreement that the Void, as written, is THE evil.  The great conflict that LOTC charts is the battle between the vision of an infinite, creative being, and an infinitely hungry nothingness.

 

But I do think the Void can and should be more than the big chaos monster.  I don't for a second think that's an easy sell given current lore (wink wink), but I do think it nonetheless.

[Gustando 1990]

need more court of wizards that review omens and ponder the orb and less rgb mages (they are different)

[PrimnyaQuorum 4000]

10 hours ago, Jentos said:

i find it very disappointing to see how far some people will go to try and depict the void as this neutral force. Technically voidal magic could be, but only Aelesh has ever written that lore. I guess it’s subjective but if you think ever so slowly drawing void incarnate closer to creation is a good thing, let alone a neutral thing - go ahead. Even connecting to the void makes pin prick holes in the veil technically, meaning that if enough mages connect at the same time across the world, the risk of a spillover greatens. Every map, there always ends up being a voidal invasion event, related to mages ******* around and finding out. Voidal mages to me are the epitome of selfish - they threaten more, ever slowly, the existence of all things and all lives, and use it for what? Throwing rocks and fireballs. 

Of course that’s the theoretical aspect. From a practical aspect voidal mage roleplay has always been lacking and has been taken over by a rather disgusting culture that mindlessly seeks to grow in power. 
 

Just yesterday the Azdrazi captured a voidal mage and threw him in our black cells, where they’d agreed not to ss until interrogation rp could be planned. Turns out they did ss, and turns out they did so they could go get even more magic (as the forum apps now profess), and couldn’t bear to wait for narratives sake (I told him when I’d be available). I can’t superimpose this on all voidal mage players but it’s these kind of events that remind me why I dropped all voidal magics. 
 

Players need to drop the constant urge and desire to just be more powerful. I remember actually wonderful studious and wizardly roleplaying occurring in the past - where voidal magic seemed so much more about discovery than mere power. It’s accessibility, perceived neutrality in the grand scheme, and effectiveness - make it a popular choice, for good and for bad. 

 

I think the idea of the Void having a tangible effect the more its presence is spread and utilized across a map is a neat idea - the reality likely is more that a vast majority of mages will ignore it, even if something actually resulted of it unless it directly threatened them. If mages aren't interacting with the concept of the Void and how what they do effects the world now, writing it into lore in a non-effecting way isn't going to do much - if it's not baked into the connection lore that maybe 50% of mages read and understand and has some redline tied to it, It's just a good theory imo. That sucks, but unless some sweeping thing forces a change in void mage culture that's probably where its going to stay.

 

I feel like what happened with the Void Mage is less that they were a Void Mage and more what kind of player they were - unless this is something you've repeatedly experience with voidal mages. Still sounds very anti-RP, Voidal Mage or not.

 

7 hours ago, Aelesh said:

I thought about replying, chose not to, but now I've been invoked...

 

I actually wrote a long diatribe about how the Void isn't just evil, but the root of all evil in the LOTC setting.  All strife that the descendants experience today can be traced back to the Void.  I am in complete agreement that the Void, as written, is THE evil.  The great conflict that LOTC charts is the battle between the vision of an infinite, creative being, and an infinitely hungry nothingness.

 

But I do think the Void can and should be more than the big chaos monster.  I don't for a second think that's an easy sell given current lore (wink wink), but I do think it nonetheless.

 

Unless I've not read/experienced the giant amount of deeplore/hidden lore the Void has (and I probably have not, in fairness) - I don't see how the Void, a nothing, can be "good" or "evil" in the context of how other good and evil is considered (Paladins/Templars are "good", Inferi/Necromancers and their constructs are "Bad"). Yea, it's definitely bad in the context if the Veil were ever broken enough, the Void would consume everything - but that's devoid of any rational thought, unless the Void is some hivemind intelligence that plots and plans like every other bit of angueldaemonica lore.  

 

I can't say I'm against the idea of consequences for Voidal Magic unchecked - but so far the only real consequences are irrevocably altering chunks of the map after the Tear hidden 200 blocks underground and behind innumerable redstone doors is destroyed if the creators managed not to tell anyone for 4 months. There's no medium between world ending calamity/permanently damaging disaster and a Mana Obelisk, and no real reason for people to believe the Void is inherently bad. 

 

That said - I definitely wouldn't mind changes that lead to that coming through. Voidal Magic is the only magic I know of that doesn't at least give players a chance to fit into a culture (they either exist without one, or join a nation thats founded by/accepts voidal magics). It would be nice to see more of the Void as a problem in ways that are not simply world-ending or big chaos monster, as you said.

[kujo_ 2510]

what if translo or the evocations became 2 slot? would lower the amount of mages dipping their toes into everything

[Benleft 2580]

12 minutes ago, Bonito said:

what if [...] the evocations became 2 slot? would lower the amount of mages dipping their toes into everything

 

Last night, @wowj and I talked about smashing all the evocations into big stupid multi-slot magic. Our outline was:

1. EVOCATION occupies three magic slots.

2. Upon connecting to EVOCATION, mages may select one or two (it doesn't REALLY matter as long as its 3+) evocation subtypes to specialize in.

3. The subtypes of EVOCATION are Earth, Water, Air, and Fire (maybe LIGHTNING if someone crazy can balance it). 

4. EVOCATIONISTS may dedicate one additional slot to EVOCATION to access one additional subtype of EVOCATION. 

5. There would be a few (something from five to seven) "universal" spells like EVOKE PROJECTILE (magic missile) with elemental subtypes that all functionally accomplish the same thing. 

For example, Harry Potter is a 3-Slot Evocationist. The EVOKE PROJECTILE spell is his main attacking spell that launches a ball of elemental magic at someone. He has selected FIRE and AIR as his subtypes. His EVOKE PROJECTILE spell would allow him to cast a ball of burning flame which can scald people and a ball of air which can move people. 

6. Each subtype would have a few (two or three) "unique" spells (they could be as simple as passive abilities or ultimate abilities that can change encounters in one casting, so long as they are DIFFERENT and do not subtract from the casting of normal spells). 

For example, Fire Evocation could have a "Blue Fire" passive ability where they may spend [1] extra emote per-casting to make ALL OF THEIR SPELLS hit harder. 

 

I'm not sure whether or not this would be a perfect fix (I hope it is because I love attention), but I think it could help bring the magic in a more soulful direction. Most of my angst with voidal magic stems from there being way too many spells. The system Wowj and I dreamed up doesn't exactly eliminate that, but it certainly simplifies it.