The state of PVP on LotC | The Perspective of a Warlord turned NL

[Tide1 4535]

 

 @Halt @Josh3738

 

P V P - Mechanical Roleplay

The way in which conflicts are resolved, and the state of it.

 

Hello Lotc, hello Moderation team. There is a growing sentiment on LotC regarding a very real issue, that being Player versus Player (PVP) combat, also known as Mechanical Roleplay to some. As the Leader of the largest nation on Lotc, accomplished by no small amount of PVP and conflict, having belonged to a lodge of conflict roleplayers for the past four years, and currently moderating our own internal war roughly the size of the average Oren vs Haense conflict - I feel uniquely capable and even responsible for voicing these issues before a larger, more influential audience.

 

 

The Plugin

 

On Complexity

The way in which the PVP plugin allows for skill expression, the way in which inexperienced players easily pick it up, and how it does or doesn’t achieve either, despite its perceived depth.

 

 

The Aevos iteration of the LotC Surge PVP plugin is heavily derived from its last iteration featured upon Almaris, and seeks also to imitate some additional features found in more elaborate PVP plugins, such as the old Nexus plugin or once-LotC competitor FRP’s profession-and-PVP plugin. While by no stretch nearly as feature-complete as any of the previously made comparisons, the plugin does offer a degree of complexity that is deeper than the once iron-kit of LotC. But is this a good thing for the server?

Not in its current state. The degree of depth offered is not high enough to reward those who truly wish to master it (nor do the rules of LotC cater to these individuals), though it is leagues above enough to confuse and misdirect those who do not. I will give a few examples;
 

Spoiler

✠ Players can expect while participating in PVP-combat to deal with debuff management, status ailments (inflicted and received), armour-swapping, weapon-swapping, limited FOV, item quality, and the separation of one-handed items and two-handed items. These ‘features’ are trivial for someone like me, and detrimental to the average roleplayer. And while I reap the benefits of a foe in disarray, these systems are simply not fun to interact with at the level they are presented and forced upon the player.

 

✠ We have at our disposal, disregarding the pike and the lance, seven whole melee weapons, and among these are the two swords widely regarded as the ‘best’ and only choices. Why then do we have 4-5 weapons that unintentionally serve only to misdirect any Roleplayer seeking to craft their own? 80% of these weapons are distinct by status effect alone, and 70% of them are not worth the trade-off in damage. Status ailments as a whole are neither satisfying to inflict nor do they feel good for the recipient, and are therefore so weak that they’ve become irrelevant. The only exception to this is the status ailment that deals damage.

 

✠ We have our pick of four ranged weapons, which is an impressive selection. Why then are only two of them usable if you ever desire to win? The King and Queen of ranged combat on Aevos are the Longbow and the Javelin, both of which come with their own quirks in exchange for unprecedented damage. The Longbow will provide you with crippling debuffs for 5-20 seconds, depending on server-side lag, and the Javelins are notoriously awkward to use for much the same reason. If you do not interact with either of these systems, you will, without a doubt, be at a massive disadvantage or just lose outright.

 

✠ As fights rarely happen out in the open anymore, most PVP will heavily favor the usage of Daemonsteel (Netherite) armour, and the average player will often be sponsored this in anticipation of PVP. While you are wearing Netherite armour, you will be suffering from slowness and a reduced FOV. The inexperienced, or those without the know-how to disable FOV-altering effects, suffer tremendously from this Netherite requirement, and the experience tends to be rather abysmal and disorienting, whether victory or defeat.

 

All that to say that the added complexity of Aevos PVP takes more than it gives. Should the powers that be in control of this stuff wish to continue on this path, then I would strongly advise looking back at systems like Nexus and FRP, and drawing more heavily upon those. However, if that is not the desire of the Tech team, then I would be first among many to lobby for a return to a more civilized age - a return to a simpler kit.

 

On Philosophy and Balancing

The design philosophy behind the current PVP kit and its effect on how the game plays.

 

Items like the Longbow, Daemonsteel armour, and, to a lesser degree, shields. Coupled with the ever-punishing gate and door mechanics of the main server, fights have become even more stalled and drawn out than before. Never before has a PVP kit favoured sitting on your ass as much as this one. We have items that are significantly stronger than others, justified by the idea that these items come with offensive drawbacks. These drawbacks do not matter at all if you are within either your own enclosed space or otherwise have some measure of safe fortification between you and your foe. It is, simply put, unhealthy for the game to have items that slow you down in exchange for disproportionate amounts of power. Doubly so when the drawbacks tied to the items are inherently unfun to deal with. It should also be worth noting that in melee, the Longbow still out-damages any other kind of melee weapon and will win an active trade between the two.

 

On the Barrier to Entry

The ease with which any player can attain the necessary items to participate in PVP combat.

 

I have not once had a problem with gearing myself, and I probably never will. I have played in many groups, all dedicated to conflict roleplay, all with the ability to either grind out their own gear or take it from someone else. In spite of this, voicing this issue is important to me. To farm enough Netherite for your own armour set, provided you even have access to Netherite mines uninterrupted, will take you at least an hour. To actually craft the set, you will also need roughly a stack of leather. To craft any armament or armour, you will need leather. The lone player cannot obtain leather on their own. Whatever socio-economic situation caused by this, that the Administration may or may not think is beneficial to the server, does not hold a candle to the disappointment of seeing a knight, a darkstalker, or any foe d20 on the spot, or run in vain, because they couldn’t afford to carry pvp-gear. Why is it that it is free to don a Minecraft skin featuring heavy plate-mail, but it’ll cost your perpetual loyalty or your mother’s house to get yourself a set of functional arms and armour? At least I know that I, as a nation-leader, would not be gearing people whose loyalty I was uncertain of. 

 

I cannot stress how silly it is that every item in the game, barring arrows, requires a heavy investment of leather, and that there is both a cap on how many times a player can breed an animal, and how many times an animal can be bred (once), and that these systems are both somehow tied to server-Restarts which at best happen frequently and randomly, and at worst once per day. Everyone deserves at least some capacity to defend themselves in PVP, and believe me, Imperial Guards will call it on you.

 

 

The Rules

 

While I understand that the crowds and people that I intend to reach by making this post may not have the ability, nor the desire to enact change upon or even call into question the rules surrounding PVP, I believe it is valid for me to touch upon them anyway. 

 

That being said, this post is predominantly a critique of the mechanical side of PVP, and should you seek to write it off for this chapter alone, then disregard it.

 

Spoiler

Never before has the gap between a guardsman doing his job and the dark-evil shadow wizard event-goers of this world been so big. To some of you, perhaps that is the way it should be, while to others it is an unfortunate reality that big nations with big rallies are rarely afforded meaningful events. I digress, the rich get richer, the ST goers go to more ST events. But what does that have to do with PVP?

 

As far as I understand, the ST has a vice grip on the rules surrounding conflict resolution. And verily, as regards the “Mission Statement”, CRP default ticks most of the boxes. 

But until the ST has come up with concrete, solid, working guidelines for CRP, and actually intends to enforce these as if they were rules, I do not believe that you should be forcing my players, our players, any player on this server, to endure the power-gaming of Spook#40594 at 3 AM in the morning. It has always been the prerogative of the defender to choose how their time is spent/wasted on LotC. I needn’t remind anyone that the Kingdom of Norland almost died as a consequence of two powergamers failing to kill each other through some 4 hours of CRP with extensive Mod and ST oversight. In its best-case scenario of duelling, CRP is still a flawed conflict-resolution tool that has no hard-enforced guidelines. Until the ST make some, I beg to see them no longer hold the average player’s time hostage, and to see a return of the defender’s choice. I mean no disrespect towards the ST, but the server was not and has not been ready for CRP default.

 

 

 The Good

 

 

It is worth recognising the good that has come of this iteration. The keen eye may have noticed that I have hardly touched on cavalry combat at all, and that is because it is in a fairly good spot right now. The place that horseback pvp holds relative to footsoldiering is good, and it should stay that way. Lances and pikes have finally been fine-tuned and are in a good spot as well. 

 

The changes that I would like to see in LotC PVP

 

I do not believe that I alone could come up with an entirely perfect, let alone passable system, so I shall preface this by saying that I sincerely believe the Moderation Team should gather the most knowledgeable people on the topic together as a group, as well as a few outsiders, and get to work on designing a new kit/plugin. While these are not the full extent of my opinions, nor shall I explain them in detail here, these are the potential types of changes that I would like to see made.
 

Spoiler

✠ Return to iron armour and iron sword, remove all offhands but the shield. 

✠ Keep the lance, keep the pike, and keep the spear. These weapons have all served their purpose and should continue to do so. Spears interact uniquely with LotC’s custom builds. It feels cool being able to launch people off of builds.

✠ Merge the longbow and shortbow into a middleground-type bow that can be used from horseback. Remove the other ranged options.

✠ Force cavalrymen to wear an even lower quality armour (repped by chainmail, for example) to balance out the lack of an armour disparity between the two.

 

Were we to truly return to the old days and lower the amount of player-health as well, a more in-depth discussion would have to be had regarding the position of cavalrymen as a whole. But that is for when and if such a gathering of players is made.

 

Closing words

 

Like I have mentioned earlier, I am no stranger to clicking people. I have experienced the incredible highs that this plugin can offer, and I have witnessed the absolute lows. Pretty much every day, I hear some form of lamenting that the current way in which PVP combat is played out is very lame, and I agree. I feel as though a change is needed, and that such a change could only stand to benefit the community as a whole. Whether you enjoy PVP combat or you can’t stand it, whenever it does happen, it ought to be less of an abysmal experience. To the hopefully many readers of this post, I urge you to state your own opinion on the matter and to make yourselves heard. I pray the Moderation team takes this message to heart and takes action.

 

 Sincerely, 

Tide1, some Emperor.

 

 

---

 

 

[nunlover 579]

+1

[olpx 1013]

Everything but lower tier armor on horse

[blesseuropa 114]

something to mention, alongside the great amount of variety in weaponry is how much inventory space PVP gear takes. It'd be good if PVP gear could be stored in another inventory, to allow more classical Roleplay centric players to be able to carry their roleplay items without having to have a stuff inventory of; iron gear, netherite gear, longbow shortbow, jav, steak, arrows, pike, lance, horse, haybales [ofcourse you're not required to have these, but if you dont, you're at a great disadvantage.]

overall, though I do enjoy the extreme variety of PVP, and as fun as it is playing it outside of regular melee and ranged, it is far too difficult for the average noob or fleeper and far too expensive in time to gather for. 
+1

Edited August 27, 2025 by blesseuropa

[pkdon 1977]

EVAN!! GIVE ME FRP PVP, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS

[Random 1690]

19 minutes ago, Tide1 said:

I digress, the rich get richer, the ST goers go to more ST events.

I got events but am still poor, 1984

[terms 255]

Personally think the biggest issue is the "time to kill". Right now big pvp conflicts tend to be who can stall out the other since no one wants to pvp for 15 seconds for the whole interaction due to how rare it is. Would be nice if we could introduce something to fix this but unfortunately dont think lotc agree with this. 

Other than that i agree that you cant really master the pvp, what i mean by that is that the skill ceiling is so low, you can never really consistently do more than a 1v2. Wish they would fix the kb and hit reg which would fix this.

[Nectorist 12869]

The server’s definitely going in the right direction for pvp (last map was the worst Ive seen), but I agree that simplification is best. Whether it’s war, a raid, a duel, whatever, the best result (for both rp and everyone’s time), had almost always been the quickest one. 

[Seva 624]

I would like to offer my thoughts not as a Moderator (as I've only been one for two or so months), but moreso as a player and what I expect to see from a Roleplay server.

I think the unique issue when it comes to combat really boils down to the idea of forced interaction with entities that you may or may not want to interact with. The server is certainly built around forcing one to interact with *every* piece of combat that is thrown at you, and I think the quality of combat is certainly to blame for the sense of frustration. When I go and hunt Darkspawn, stalling for forever and refusing to back down from powergaming can often be a frustrating situation that I've run into many times.

 

Regardless of this, I'm personally someone who will never call PvP. I can understand why others enjoy the benefit of how fast PvP can be to finish out conflict, but I've never really found myself wanting to PvP rather than CRP. Mostly because I'm here to Roleplay! I enjoy CRP and I feel it is the true intended way to deal with combat on the server. I don't like the idea of our literary medium being somewhat held ransom by a skill ceiling that is at least partially inherited (Clicks per Second). That isn't to say one *can't* improve at PvP, but moreso that for some the floor starts at a very low place.

 

I personally enjoy CRP default, I think it makes sense considering the sort of server we play on, but that said I can understand how the powergaming can turn a lot of people off from it, especially when you know that a Mod interaction might take quite a while to work out. I think ultimately what I would be *most* happy to see is some sort of stat system built into rolling. I want us to be able to fill out character sheets and make advancements, that meaningfully impact roll CRP so that the dubious nature of people CRP'ing to Win will be negated somewhat.

 

I'm certainly a different voice than Tide, but I think that both of us can see and recognize that there are some things to be desired in the way combat works at a baseline. I want there to be an option for PvPers! But I also want there to be meaningful options for the people who prefer Roleplay and don't want to rely on mechanics. I think there is a way to make CRP default a less miserable experience while also allowing for PvP to have its place, and to improve upon it. I can't really speak to changes to PvP from the perspective of an expert, but I can speak on it from the perspective of a Roleplay focused person:

 

Its really difficult to get into! I don't even mean to discuss it as "its impossible why even try", but some people have a difficult time getting a feel for it compared to others. My reaction time isn't amazing, and my Clicks per Second is somewhat average, but my heart/body tends to get pretty wigged out when I'm PvP'ing, and its a stress load that can be pretty disorienting at times. Something about it kicks in the adrenaline in a way that I find slightly uncomfortable. For other people its other things. Not having perfect gear, not knowing what is good, feeling discouraged against enemies that are perceived as better or have a reputation, there are so many factors that make getting into PvP daunting. It is possible to get good at PvP no matter what, I recognize that, but for me personally its a hurdle that's hard to tackle with my IRL.

 

All of this is to say, I think its an important thing to mention the thought process of people who enjoy CRP default, and want to see CRP improved very heavily as well. I would love to write up something about CRP changes in general, but that's a can of worms I would need to think really deeply about.

I hope my words were somewhat constructive, and I hope they don't seem like they're coming from someone who wants to whine. As a Mod I'll enforce what's written and advocate for better rules as always, but I wanted to at least write down my thoughts since Tide requested them :] If you have questions I'd be happy to answer as best I can.

[MatronMaeve 170]

First off I agree with most of the post and want to thank Tide for taking the time to type all this out. Leather factoring into pretty much every recipe sucks. The weapons as they are currently balanced don’t leave as much room for variety as the options would suggest. There’s also not really an option for voidal mages I’ve noticed if they wanted to participate with a semi lore accurate kit (forced to wear heavy armor and wield a heavy weapon). But I do want to go on a tangent regarding pvp from a relatively new player’s perspective of less than a year on the server (I believe what folks call a fleeper).
 

This recent conflict is my first foray into war on the server so take what I say with a grain of salt. Maybe I’m just a new player that doesn’t fully get the appeal. I was shocked by how much OOC influences and takes over war. Between the discord pvp voice channel being an absolutely jarring experience filled with toxicity and ooc call outs for rp decisions it has fully taken me out of any roleplay immersion. Even roleplay chat has been a mix of ooc memery.

[Gaja 1311]

it's fun to read a perspective that I've heard echoed by a lot of my friends even though I myself disagree. obviously I'm well aware I'm in the minority, especially out of whatever people consider 'pvpers' (if people even consider me that)

I would say that the analysis is pretty spot on in regards to barrier to entry and kit complexity--these things are nuance that I find really fun and distinctive after so many years of minecraft pvp, providing me more enjoyment from the 'variety' of the current system. one thing I'd also mention is that I feel very rewarded for playing smart and using my kit effectively, oftentimes able to beat people who click WAY faster than me (7-8cps demon) by managing my tools better.

I would say your analysis falls short only in the minor specifics which are not really that important to your argument---out of all the melee weapons, only the warhammer and mace have literally no place in pvp and the others have pretty good competition with the shortsword and longsword or just outright serving a specific purpose i.e pike, and the ranged weapons are all pretty solidly usable--crossbow being an explicitly underrated tool in relation to longbow, given how much longbow dominates people's perception of this current system. my bigger gripe are the two items which serve LITERALLY no purpose--regular shield and arbalest.

I personally would be incredibly sad and bored if we went back to iron sword bow shield steak pvp, not only because it would definitively nerf specifically me and make me a lot less useful, but also because it would remove the complexity which this system can offer as a reason to get invested.

i know this is perhaps a little asinine to mention but I've definitely trained people who ended up grasping where the fun in this combat lies and the complexity by itself was something a couple said they underestimated and ended up attracting them more to combat. it's obviously a minority of people as well, just worth noting that a lot of people have made up their minds about current pvp without actually really ever giving it a fair shot.

what's the solution, then? pvpers vastly want to just go back to 1.9, which while I think would probably be good for all of them, is probably not the direction the server wants to head in. my guess is that they want to keep 'pvp' as easy to enter into as possible. in the past days of raids, a lot of people have just been given gear and jumped right into clicking, managing to get downs or have impact without being especially good. that's probably what is 'wanted' for LOTC, i guess?

I'll agree on the grinding aspect, though I don't think the leather in PARTICULAR is so bad, given that hilariously 'cow tiles' offer nations an easy avenue for tax-farming from playergroups, making them extremely common in every nation and fairly attainable for the average player--even though the demand typically is voting daily or some other way of making money. regardless of grinding leather's place in nation tax generation though, both it and grinding iron/neth are tedious, take too long and most importantly provide zero roleplay whatsoever.

my final thoughts: I actually think this pvp plugin has a lot of potential but has been left half-unfinished and unbalanced and unpolished. throwing away another pvp plugin would be an incredibly sad move by a server which fails to settle on one after fourteen years of existence or whatever. I'd rather see it tweaked, polished, refurbished and consistently updated with player feedback by someone who knows the ins and outs of the system. but I am in the minority on this, and doubt there's anyone willing to put in the amount of effort required.

tl;dr for ipad babies:

i like curreent system no get rid for me pleease

[jqsmlne 460]

13 minutes ago, Seva said:

I personally enjoy CRP default, I think it makes sense considering the sort of server we play on, but that said I can understand how the powergaming can turn a lot of people off from it, especially when you know that a Mod interaction might take quite a while to work out. I think ultimately what I would be *most* happy to see is some sort of stat system built into rolling. I want us to be able to fill out character sheets and make advancements, that meaningfully impact roll CRP so that the dubious nature of people CRP'ing to Win will be negated somewhat.

Should we crp all wars then? 

[wowj 9747]

ST didn't write the CRP rules?

At most was the Armament Tech-Lock, which was also co-approved on by Moderation.

[Seva 624]

1 minute ago, jqsmlne said:

Should we crp all wars then? . . .

 

I am in the vast minority of this, so of course will preface by saying I don't think this is the direction most people (and mods) would want, but I would enjoy that.

 

I think there could be so much cool roleplay focused around supply lines, actual battle fortifications, etc. etc. that gets lost through mechanical Wars. I used to play on servers when I was younger where we would do Wars through CRP, usually around 50v50, and it wasn't all that bad generally. Though that was mostly because "winning" a war didn't allow you to blow up the other person's Nation! I think our rules right now are really uniquely geared towards punishing people who "lose", whether in a war or in normal CRP. We've sort of perpetuated this feeling amongst newer or less confident players that losing in CRP or otherwise is something to be ashamed of, and I personally think its why we see a lot of poor combat and villainy.

 

I'm not here to suggest a fix or etc., I don't think I have the answer to that in a 10 minute typing fit, but I wish we could do everything through Roleplay without having to worry about powergaming or emotes getting lost. It would certainly be ideal, but it would likely be too difficult to overhaul and achieve.

[Tide1 4535]

3 minutes ago, Gaja said:

these things are nuance that I find really fun and distinctive after so many years of minecraft pvp, providing me more enjoyment from the 'variety' of the current system.

Won't reply to a lot of comments, but I am also of this opinion. Yet I find it easier to make arguments for simplifying the PVP rather than making it more complex (which is what it would need to feel less half-baked). In either case, I prefer a system where more people feel less and less like they are getting styled on, and have a better overall experience, so that they do not decide to never touch the subject again. Any direction the Tech team could go in would be better than what we have right now.