A Thesis On A New Dwarfish Republic

[Cracker 4570]

( I think as Dwarves we must realize that having three giant separate settlements is difficult for a couple reasons

a) It doesn't really fit our lore. Dwarves are tradition-based, inclusive, and secretive. They don't make new towns and cities often, as they focus on their current situation. A good example of this in other games that Charles brought up is in Dwarf Fortress, where the Dwarves all work together to protect their culture and secrets

B) As Dwarves, we can only help each other. Because of our lore restricton of not permitting other races into high positions, we have to solely rely on one another. If all the dwarves are spread across three kingdoms, then there isn't enough dwarves to help one another out and govern over one another. We aren't humans with a huge pop and tolerant of other races, so we can not afford to make our nation of three giant settlements.

c) Dwarves follow a more nationalistic based government anyway, not varied city-states. We really do not have city-states which is what having three kings representing three settlements would imply. We work for one another, since we value our own kin greatly

If we don't band together and stick together in one city, then we are back where we started. Technically just having a loose coalition wouldn't really benefit the nation as a whole, as we all have our agenda's, and unlike IRL city-states we don't have the lore backing nor population to support it.)

[Zezimus 1523]

a) It doesn't really fit our lore. Dwarves are tradition-based, inclusive, and secretive. They don't make new towns and cities often, as they focus on their current situation. A good example of this in other games that Charles brought up is in Dwarf Fortress, where the Dwarves all work together to protect their culture and secrets.

((That is partially true but in this case, there are still divisions between the clans and so the city-state idea made more sense, based on the current situation. It's easy enough saying all the clans are united but then after a while, these divisions are likely to emerge again and we'll be back in the same situation we were in before. In the end, I just honestly feel that based on what people have been saying, they want their own clan members in the positions of power which will make it very difficult to keep everyone satisified.))

B) As Dwarves, we can only help each other. Because of our lore restricton of not permitting other races into high positions, we have to solely rely on one another. If all the dwarves are spread across three kingdoms, then there isn't enough dwarves to help one another out and govern over one another. We aren't humans with a huge pop and tolerant of other races, so we can not afford to make our nation of three giant settlements.

((While we do usually stay to ourselves, that doesn't mean we haven't been able to get along with the other races in the past. We've actually had both an Elven Queen and an Elven Councilor, along with a number of people in the military who weren't Dwarves. The point is, we are divivided as a race currently, whether we like it or not. While I agree we should try to reunite, I'm not sure that bringing everyone back to Karik like this would be the best option.))

c) Dwarves follow a more nationalistic based government anyway, not varied city-states. We really do not have city-states which is what having three kings representing three settlements would imply. We work for one another, since we value our own kin greatly

If we don't band together and stick together in one city, then we are back where we started. Technically just having this coalition wouldn't really benefit the nation as a whole, as we all have our agenda's, and unlike IRL city-states we don't have the lore backing nor population to support it.)

((Again, the issue is that if we're all in the same single government, there are inevitably going to be some disagreements and then some people who just want to get power for members of their own clan, as has already been seen. I want this to work, I just think we might need to have more talks before we all rush into an idea that some people might not be entirely happy with. Some people still prefer the idea of the three Holds.))

[Charles_Grimlie 1072]

((Ooc))

For the new system I will be answer questions and what not, also I will be explaining things in furthur detail.

"Weakening" clans?

I know most of you who are part of a clan are against this idea... But what is occuring with clans is feuds, hoarding of materials, and clan dependancy.

Clan dependancy: This occured when the clans took positions of high power, much like Thorik's assumed "favouritism" for his clan. This causes people to be put into high power because they are part of the clan and people where more keen on joining clans for instant power, we need to fix this...

Clan feuds: Currently these feuds are causing other clans to stay away from the city, these feuds also amount to wealth hoarding and conflicts within the populace in terms of polictics, we don't want another Irongut incident.

Hoarding: This is what is weakening our kingdom, the clans right now are fighting for themselves, not the kingdom! Though this is what you may believe, we are hoping to instead pool resources into the kingdom via using quotas to offer certain working sectors materials for their own.

What we hope will happen with the new kingdom storage, and resources system:

- Free starter tools for new dwarves, and new jobs as they work for the kingdom

- Larger income to the kingdom, materials will be ordered in from other kingdoms using a demand list, this list will allow the kingdom to approve materials, or deny them.

- More materials which can be distributed FAIRLY! And used for war on demand of the kingdom.

- Wasting less on luxury goods.

- Feasts will occur! Yay feasts! :D

What we hope will happen with the new clan system:

- Clans will be more focused on RP

- Clans will live within the kingdom instead of within the clan

- Clan meetings will appear more, and clan feasts.

- Clans will resolve their differences, and will not fight over jobs, or demoralize new folk.

New player start system for dwarves:

Here is the scenario:

a new people walks to Karik, he is rather new to RP but understands the concept.

If you see him here is what we want you to do:

1. Suggest them to a government offical, such as the kings or a "Guild" leader.

2. Do not suggest joining your clan yet, as we wish to set up this new player and not distract him (Not to be rude!)

The new dwarf will obtain a job by meeting the leader of the sector of lets say mining then he will obtain, tools, and given a free house*. After this you the player may reccomend clans to the new dwarf after he has settled into his job and purpose!

Also regarding the holds...

((Again, the issue is that if we're all in the same single government, there are inevitably going to be some disagreements and then some people who just want to get power for members of their own clan, as has already been seen. I want this to work, I just think we might need to have more talks before we all rush into an idea that some people might not be entirely happy with. Some people still prefer the idea of the three Holds.))-Valen

The problem with holds is that we will be too far devided, and un orginized. The new system will not work if we are far away and leaders are managing their own kingdoms and leading people to hoard their supplies. We need to assure that everyone is on the same level, and if we all work together we will develop into a more mightier nation.

Extreme idea which has occured a few times:

Leaving Karik, and creating a new land.

Though this deos seem extreme the idea behind this is that we are developing and building our own kingdom, instead of having this massive pre built city where we can do nothing. I am neither for or against this but a majority of people might actually strongly like this idea...

Thank you for reading what we have right now, we will continue on this.

*Subject to change

[DeletedUser 169]

i t'ink we should 'ave 1 king en 3 lesser kings frum t'e biggest clans. Blackaxes, Ironguts if t'ey come back tu karik, En Grim'alls.

[Cracker 4570]

(( Regarding your argument about a, we cannot tolerate this clan elitism and displacement. It's sickening how people try to put their clan and selfish desires before the survival of our nation, and it has definitely harmed us in the past. The kingdom should be the priority. Also, I kind of feel like the noble clans aren't even noble, as anyone can get in with a 50 word app...

As for the argument about B, traditionally we don't accept non-races into positions like High Lord, or Legion supervisors, things that we need. While there have been exceptions unless we open our doors to all the other races, we need to stick together as we are the only race who are so secretive that they almost never allow other races to the bowels of their city

Finally, disagreements are a part of politics. I would rather have some engaging politics then have three split settlements, none of them particularly exceeding in anything and all alone weak. A united kingdom is almost always stronger then coalition of city states These political system would provide an actual political backbone to Karik that does not revolve around clans.

We should talk about this in a few meetings, of course. I don't think holds will work just because they are too far apart and less unified so we can't back each other, plus we do not have the Dwarven pop to support it, but intelligent discussion about civil reforms is fine by me

This whole scenario reminds me of the writing of the Constitution in early American history, and the ideal of big national government versus states rights.... :P

And National Government ended up working best xD))

[Charles_Grimlie 1072]

((OOC))

To those with TS we will have a meeting today at 4:00 Est (-5:00 GMT) 3:30 hours from now

This will help us continue to discuss about this topic and allow us to work together with the plan rather than sepearate and "delievering the message". We will meet in Karik chat!

[Zezimus 1523]

((We had a national government for months but then it stopped working because of these clan rivalries, leading to people breaking off from the nation and doing their own thing. Isn't this just going to put us back into the situation we were in when we first came to Asulon? It's a part of our lore to be loyal to our clan more than anyone else. The war against Alras started because people began to follow the orders of their clan leaders over their own King.))

[Dun_Irongut 104]

(( Regarding your argument about a, we cannot tolerate this clan elitism and displacement. It's sickening how people try to put their clan and selfish desires before the survival of our nation, and it has definitely harmed us in the past. The kingdom should be the priority. Also, I kind of feel like the noble clans aren't even noble, as anyone can get in with a 50 word app...

As for the argument about B, traditionally we don't accept non-races into positions like High Lord, or Legion supervisors, things that we need. While there have been exceptions unless we open our doors to all the other races, we need to stick together as we are the only race who are so secretive that they almost never allow other races to the bowels of their city

Finally, disagreements are a part of politics. I would rather have some engaging politics then have three split settlements, none of them particularly exceeding in anything and all alone weak. A united kingdom is almost always stronger then coalition of city states These political system would provide an actual political backbone to Karik that does not revolve around clans.

We should talk about this in a few meetings, of course. I don't think holds will work just because they are too far apart and less unified so we can't back each other, plus we do not have the Dwarven pop to support it, but intelligent discussion about civil reforms is fine by me

This whole scenario reminds me of the writing of the Constitution in early American history, and the ideal of big national government versus states rights.... :P

And National Government ended up working best xD))

Alright, I'll just go down the list.. eh..

1.In the past, we have allowed other races into our capital, that was only a recent change, made when the Galaharian refugees showed up.

2.Engaging politics usually involve different factions, i.e. separate holds.

3.Kal'Dwain is not built only on the Dwarven population and neither is Holm. Take this into account, as if we limit ourselves on all fronts, by not having other races in our cities, then we will be the weakest race. We should be united by our flag, not our race. Karik can be excluded from this to add a sense of pride to the Dwarven nation.

4. These holds don't really revolve around clans, as I'm open to any clan having a position of power in my own hold. That is not what I was going for with this idea, although Holm is Irongut based and Karik has many Braveaxes/Blackaxes.

5.Kal'Dwain is actually very close to Karik, so it would be easy for me to help you. We would most likely have a fast travel method, leading to Holm (An underground Tram?) and Holm seems as if it can defend itself at this point. With 3 holds, we can have a much larger unified army and a much larger population. The problem of disunification can easily be solved with fun events in each of the holds each week and then promoting these events in all of the holds. This would allow everyone from each hold to have a nice time and have all around fun.

6. We are not the good 'ol US uv A. We are Dwarves :/. Anyway, unless you want to implement a checks and balances system (which by the way, is far to complex and time consuming for the pace that this server moves at) and give someone like the president the power to.. I don't know.. Make informed changes and suggestions and deal with diplomacy, i.e. The High-King, then I suggest we don't base our argument off of the creation of the U.S. government.

7 (My Own stuffs)- LOTC should be fun, not an OOC battleground. Hopefully we can have this meeting without OOC conflict, eh?

[Cracker 4570]

1. The problem I see with places like Holm and Kal'Dwain is that they haven't actually benefitted the Dwarven nation, but they've just been advertising for themselves and solely benefiting themselves. The race issue can be mitigated on surface outposts, but seperate towns are "seperate" and encourages the Dwarven pop to split.

2. Factions don't have to be holds. Holds encourages coalitions and splits in views and discourages Dwarven Unity as the Hold becomes > Kingdom, just as Clan's had become > Kingdom.

3. That's fine, but keep that to surface outposts. Our lore essentially forces us to have only Dwarves in Karik

4. Seperate Holds still would encourage sectionalism and partisanship just as clans would

5. I was actually thinking of turning Kal'Dwain into a mining colony for the Legion, but its twist would be that it would also be a prison colony/slave colony. Prisoners and Slaves would work the mines for the Legion which monitor the colony. Similar to Cidhna Mine from Skyrim, tell me what you think. On regards to fast travel...we will have to wait for it, something we can't just idle with. Furthermore, fast travel'll probably cost money and it does not secure unity.

6. We aren't the USA. It's just an analogy I noticed, and its not only attributed to the USA but any large empire who are concerned of state's rights and national government.

7. Agreed. This'll be fun to do in IC. I do wish to talk to anyone with concerns over teamspeak about the reforms though, because this can truly work as long as we have people in the right positions.

As Charles said, giving each clan or just giving all of the current outposts their own lands and their own "Hold" is just going to result in further divisions and splits. We must insure the value of the kingdom and how precious it is to the Dwarven custom in Asulon.

[Dun_Irongut 104]

((OOC))

I'm just going to respond to 1, as I'll leave the rest for the meeting. There will always be seperate towns. If they don't move to Kal'Dwain, they will move to Hanseti. The problem isn't other towns, it's that there is nothing to do in Karik. When was the last time we had a weekly RP event? Smaller RP events, happening around the city?

[Phlex 0]

(( It seems that a huge issue of these selfish desires and separations are the clans and peoples' desire for position of Power. Could also be the OOC immaturity of players that don't realize that elitism and these random cliques that are not welcoming of new dwarves/players and/or helping to improve the city for the better FOR ALL PEOPLE[not just their clans or select buddies]. These people that only worry about amassing chests of iron/gold/diamond/ and other stuff that just sit there while they run about gloating of how rich they are, THOSE are the people that should NEVER get positions of authority, they have no interest in helping the city nor ensuring that everyone has fun. I believe in a system that you should get as much as you realistically need, and any excess should be distributed or given to the kingdom in case of war or some other event[For free or not for free. People will inevitably amass minas which may or may not be a problem depends on whom you ask.] For those who don't realize it, with great power comes great responsibility. And in a game, especially one of this sort where you CAN'T WIN IT, the way in which you are assesed to have been a successful leader is if those to whom you are in charge of are having fun. People may be poor, have no position in government, have no job, but if they are having fun, then you are doing something right. Stop trying to be heroes, play your part in the community and hopefully as many people as possible will have fun. /endrant))

[Dun_Irongut 104]

((OOC))

May I ask who you are refering to? RPly, my character wants more power and more minas. But an OOC rant regaurding RP objectives of certain polticians is not needed. As for helping new players, I'm always open to providing jobs, houses, etc for them and teaching them how to RP if they need a bit of help. As for the OOC immaturity, I see your point. There has been a ton of uneeded OOC tension and that needs to stop, now. The city needs to unite and begin to set up things for new players and veterans to do or many will begin leaving, as we have already seen. Fun RP does not involve OOC tension and it should not be based off of it.

[no longer active 734]

((Damnit Charles, you make me want to stay as a dwarf! ;) ))

[Phlex 0]

((OOC))

May I ask who you are refering to? RPly, my character wants more power and more minas. But an OOC rant regaurding RP objectives of certain polticians is not needed. As for helping new players, I'm always open to providing jobs, houses, etc for them and teaching them how to RP if they need a bit of help. As for the OOC immaturity, I see your point. There has been a ton of uneeded OOC tension and that needs to stop, now. The city needs to unite and begin to set up things for new players and veterans to do or many will begin leaving, as we have already seen. Fun RP does not involve OOC tension and it should not be based off of it.

I will not provide names solely for the reason that I'm not here to single any one out. They know who they are and there's no reason to name names. As to your point of it being RP, that is fine and dandy it's the way greed should be played out. But if it gets to the point where it hampers others ability to enjoy lotc, that's where it begins to become a large issue. Of course I have not seen anything that would suggest you have done either. My main point though, as you thankfully seemed to have understood, was the at times immaturity that occurs too often.

[Dun_Irongut 104]

((Alright then, lets get on with fixing the goverment so people stop leaving D: