Creation Or Evolution? Vote!

[Shadeleaf 1021]

Now that is rather scientifically incorrect it its self, the only think Cryo currently achieves is removing your blood and suspending your cells form moving great amounts, In retrospect i suppose Cryo does slowdown the aging process, but with the small side effect of killing you. And for those who think freezing ones head is a good idea, well you are taking the extra step to decapitate yourself before you are frozen at temperatures at which no being (except that little thing in Antarctica, what was it, Water Bear or something.) can survive. End of .rant file, topic successfully diverted

[Lego XBOX 915]

Evolution for Dummies

Lets name this certain bacteria as α. Lets say α resides in your stomach. α is part of a colony of other α's which are completely identical. However there are some other bacteria which are identical in almost each respect named β. This β has a further developed cytoplasmic shell thus protecting it from a certain anti-biotic. β is in an insignificant minority.

To clarify on β. β is a bacterial cell which was subject of a genetical error during the division of α. Bacteria being large colonies of thousands and thousands, furthermore them reproducing every 20 minutes makes the probability of having a mutation increased.

Back to the story. You get stomach aches, you take a generalized anti-biotic. This attacks and destroys all the α type of the colony, leaving the minority of β types living. You have just helped the evolution of the β type species.

This is how bacteria come to be immune to anti-biotic. Its not because of them becoming used to it, its because they randomly generate a defense against it. This also explains however, the way evolution works, accelerated of course as the scale bacteria evolve in is tiny. This can be applied to some human beings now having AIDS immune T4 lymphocytes. These humans are thus superior in a world where AIDS claims many because of a small change in the genetic code induced randomly by either radiation or simple genetical mistakes when duplicating.

I wasn't sure if anyone had explained this, so I was just giving my little guide to evolution. If you contest this, I'm sorry to say, but you are wrong to. This is plainly based off pure logic.

[Vekrus 396]

Evolution is WRONG

"When you ask an evolutionist how they come up with the age of the sedimentary layers in the earth, they will always tell you they date them by the fossils found in those sedimentary layers. Then later on when you ask them how they come up with the age of the fossils, they then say their age is determined by which layer of rock they’re found in. But how can that be? How can the rocks date the layers that also date the rocks? That's what's called “circular reasoning!” One minute they say the rock determines the age of the fossil, the next the fossil determines the age of the rock!?

Darwin said “It is a truly wonderful fact… that all plants throughout all time and space should be related to each other…” –The Origin of the Species p 170.

My own personal thoughts on this is that, if all life on earth evolved from primordial soup, and as soon as life started to form species like birds, animals, plants, fish etc. And those birds, animals, plants and fish evolved into many different types of species. Like a bird later formed different types of lizards, horses and dogs, or other animals formed different animals. Or plants created everything from vines to trees to flowers, and fish evolved into dinosaurs, apes and humans; then I have to ask, why, for the last 6000 years of recorded history not a single new species been created? We still have many of the old species and we know of many that did in fact become extinct. But not a single bird has been found that used to be a fish. And not a single bird has been found that is related to a lizard! If life truly evolves like they say it does, why did it all of a sudden stop dead in its tracks 6000 years ago? After all, if life is as they define it, is a constant evolutionary process, then that process should be never ending.

They also state it takes billions of years for each animal, insect or plant to evolve. If that's true why do we have termites? Termites eat wood but can't digest it. In their intestines are smaller insects that that digest the cellulose the termites place in there for them. The termite can't exist without the smaller insect, and the smaller insect can't live without the termit. If evolution is true neither insect should be on this planet.

There are even some that believe in Creation, but not the Bible version wherein it took only 6 days. These "Creationists" insists it took 1000 years for each "day" of creation because 2 Peter 3:8 says, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" If this is true why do we have wasps that rely on certain plants to lay their eggs within to procreate. And if this is true, how do those plants survive without the wasp pollinating them? If the plants and the wasps were created thousands of years apart, how does the plant pollinate without the wasp and how does the wasp procreate without the plant?

The big bang theory declares a spinning dot exploded to form all the planet. According to the scientific discovery called conservation of angular momentum, which actually means, if what’s spinning in a clockwise manner explodes, everything flying off of it will explode in the exact same manner. Why is it 2 planets and numerous moons orbiting many planets in our galazy alone don’t spin in the same direction as all the others. If their big bang theory is true, why is it those planets and moons appear to have come off a different explosion?

Are you aware that:

The Word of God says we were created with Human bodies that are designed to live forever. Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our "post flood" brains. (Pre-flood brains were 3 times larger) On the other hand... Evolutionists say things evolve after there is a need for change."

(Compiled by Dr. Henry M. Morris, Defender’s Bible)

Here's Your 'Scientific' Evidence for Creation!

Hydrology

Hydrologic Cycle - Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10

Evaporation - Psalms 135:7; Jeremiah 10:13

Condensation Nuclei - Proverbs 8:26

Condensation - Job 26:8; 37:11, 16

Precipitation - Job 36:26-28

Run-off - Job 28:10

Oceanic Reservoir - Psalms 33:7

Snow - Job 38:22; Psalms 147:16

Hydrologic Balance - Job 28:24-26

Springs in the Sea - Job 38:16

Geology

Principle of Isostasy - Isaiah 40:12; Psalm 104:5-9

Shape of Earth - Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:10; Psalm 103:12

Rotation of Earth - Job 38:12,14

Gravitation - Job 26:7; 38:6

Rock Erosion - Job 14:18,19

Glacial Period - Job 38:29,30

Uniformitarianism - II Peter 3:4

Dinosaurs - Job 40,41

Astronomy

Size of Universe - Job 11:7-9; 22:12; Isaiah 55:9;Jeremiah 31:37

Number of Stars - Genesis 22:17; Jeremiah 33:22

Uniqueness of Each Star - I Corinthians 15:41

Precision of Orbits - Jeremiah 31:35,36

Meteorology

Circulation of Atmosphere - Ecclesiastes 1:6

Protective Effect of Atmosphere - Isaiah 40:22

Oceanic Origin of Rain - Ecclesiastes 1:7

Relation of Electricity to Rain - Job 28:26; Jeremiah 10:13

Fluid Dynamics - Job 28:25

Biology

Blood Circulation - Leviticus 17:11

Psychotherapy - Proverbs 16:24; 17:22

Biogenesis and Stability - Genesis 1:11,21,25

Uniqueness of Man - Genesis 1:26

Chemical Nature of Flesh - Genesis 1:11,24-2:7;3:19

Cave-men - Job 12:23-25; 30:3-8

Physics

Mass-Energy Equivalence - Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

Source of Energy for Earth - Psalms 19:6

Atomic Disintegration - II Peter 3:10

Electrical Transmission of Information - Job 38:35

Television - Revelation 11:9-11

Rapid Transportation - Daniel 12:4

So guys, what I am trying to say here is yes, I am a Christian. As we look throughout creation it is very easy to see that we acknowledge a great God. He has created everything perfectly so that it all works together. Theres no way that this all happened by chance and evolution has been proved wrong, time and time again. Thanks for reading!

[Lego XBOX 915]

Evolution is WRONG

"When you ask an evolutionist how they come up with the age of the sedimentary layers in the earth, they will always tell you they date them by the fossils found in those sedimentary layers. Then later on when you ask them how they come up with the age of the fossils, they then say their age is determined by which layer of rock they’re found in. But how can that be? How can the rocks date the layers that also date the rocks? That's what's called “circular reasoning!” One minute they say the rock determines the age of the fossil, the next the fossil determines the age of the rock!?

To find out why this is not circular reasoning, go do geology for half a year then come back and explain to me how a geologist finds out the sedimentary layers. I can tell you that a whole load of factors come in. Anyway this is irrelevant to the point at hand which is evolutionists and creationists. Go do some research, try and understand, don't over-simplify what they say.

Darwin said “It is a truly wonderful fact… that all plants throughout all time and space should be related to each other…” –The Origin of the Species p 170.

My own personal thoughts on this is that, if all life on earth evolved from primordial soup, and as soon as life started to form species like birds, animals, plants, fish etc. And those birds, animals, plants and fish evolved into many different types of species. Like a bird later formed different types of lizards, horses and dogs, or other animals formed different animals. Or plants created everything from vines to trees to flowers, and fish evolved into dinosaurs, apes and humans; then I have to ask, why, for the last 6000 years of recorded history not a single new species been created? We still have many of the old species and we know of many that did in fact become extinct. But not a single bird has been found that used to be a fish. And not a single bird has been found that is related to a lizard! If life truly evolves like they say it does, why did it all of a sudden stop dead in its tracks 6000 years ago? After all, if life is as they define it, is a constant evolutionary process, then that process should be never ending.

Ignorance of what evolution is right here. Birds and fish don't evolve from each other, its like someone saying we evolved from monkeys. No. This is not how it works. All living beings have a common ancestor. The closer the genetic code is, the closer this ancestor is in history. Birds and fish have a common ancestor, but fish don't turn into birds and vice versa. Furthermore, 6000 years is nothing taking into account that Earth has existed for more than 4 billion years.

They also state it takes billions of years for each animal, insect or plant to evolve. If that's true why do we have termites? Termites eat wood but can't digest it. In their intestines are smaller insects that that digest the cellulose the termites place in there for them. The termite can't exist without the smaller insect, and the smaller insect can't live without the termit. If evolution is true neither insect should be on this planet.

Refer to the post above. Just because a certain species isn't perfect, it doesn't mean evolution doesn't exist. The best aren't the winners in evolution, its is those who can adapt the fastest.

There are even some that believe in Creation, but not the Bible version wherein it took only 6 days. These "Creationists" insists it took 1000 years for each "day" of creation because 2 Peter 3:8 says, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" If this is true why do we have wasps that rely on certain plants to lay their eggs within to procreate. And if this is true, how do those plants survive without the wasp pollinating them? If the plants and the wasps were created thousands of years apart, how does the plant pollinate without the wasp and how does the wasp procreate without the plant?

You need to notice plants appeared before wasps in any case. Wasps wouldn't need a certain plant which didn't already exist. Anyway, this theory is invalid as it derives from the bible (not going to start an anti-religion war here...). Wasps would have appeared after the plants, and plants have other ways of pollinating, such as the wind and other modes of transport.

The big bang theory declares a spinning dot exploded to form all the planet. According to the scientific discovery called conservation of angular momentum, which actually means, if what’s spinning in a clockwise manner explodes, everything flying off of it will explode in the exact same manner. Why is it 2 planets and numerous moons orbiting many planets in our galazy alone don’t spin in the same direction as all the others. If their big bang theory is true, why is it those planets and moons appear to have come off a different explosion?

The explosion created a whole load of energy and atoms. Not pieces of rocks and planets. What happened then was the creation of rocky substances and gasses via the collision of all these random atoms. They followed the closest gravitational pull and developed off that.

Are you aware that:

The Word of God says we were created with Human bodies that are designed to live forever. Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our "post flood" brains. (Pre-flood brains were 3 times larger) On the other hand... Evolutionists say things evolve after there is a need for change."

(Compiled by Dr. Henry M. Morris, Defender’s Bible)

Here's Your 'Scientific' Evidence for Creation!

Hydrology

Hydrologic Cycle - Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10

Evaporation - Psalms 135:7; Jeremiah 10:13

Condensation Nuclei - Proverbs 8:26

Condensation - Job 26:8; 37:11, 16

Precipitation - Job 36:26-28

Run-off - Job 28:10

Oceanic Reservoir - Psalms 33:7

Snow - Job 38:22; Psalms 147:16

Hydrologic Balance - Job 28:24-26

Springs in the Sea - Job 38:16

Geology

Principle of Isostasy - Isaiah 40:12; Psalm 104:5-9

Shape of Earth - Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:10; Psalm 103:12

Rotation of Earth - Job 38:12,14

Gravitation - Job 26:7; 38:6

Rock Erosion - Job 14:18,19

Glacial Period - Job 38:29,30

Uniformitarianism - II Peter 3:4

Dinosaurs - Job 40,41

Astronomy

Size of Universe - Job 11:7-9; 22:12; Isaiah 55:9;Jeremiah 31:37

Number of Stars - Genesis 22:17; Jeremiah 33:22

Uniqueness of Each Star - I Corinthians 15:41

Precision of Orbits - Jeremiah 31:35,36

Meteorology

Circulation of Atmosphere - Ecclesiastes 1:6

Protective Effect of Atmosphere - Isaiah 40:22

Oceanic Origin of Rain - Ecclesiastes 1:7

Relation of Electricity to Rain - Job 28:26; Jeremiah 10:13

Fluid Dynamics - Job 28:25

Biology

Blood Circulation - Leviticus 17:11

Psychotherapy - Proverbs 16:24; 17:22

Biogenesis and Stability - Genesis 1:11,21,25

Uniqueness of Man - Genesis 1:26

Chemical Nature of Flesh - Genesis 1:11,24-2:7;3:19

Cave-men - Job 12:23-25; 30:3-8

Physics

Mass-Energy Equivalence - Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

Source of Energy for Earth - Psalms 19:6

Atomic Disintegration - II Peter 3:10

Electrical Transmission of Information - Job 38:35

Television - Revelation 11:9-11

Rapid Transportation - Daniel 12:4

So guys, what I am trying to say here is yes, I am a Christian. As we look throughout creation it is very easy to see that we acknowledge a great God. He has created everything perfectly so that it all works together. Theres no way that this all happened by chance and evolution has been proved wrong, time and time again. Thanks for reading!

If all that you have listed is actually said, why is it that none of it was permitted by the church in the time of the bible. Sure now with science you can say the bible and other religious texts 'mention' it, but you can't prove thats what they meant at the time because the Church was against all scientific research. ESPECIALLY in biology and astronomic science.

Furthermore, please refer to my post of Evolution for dummies and explain to me how that wouldn't work... Then you can say Evolution is wrong.

[Vekrus 396]

Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all your posts right now but I wanted to point one thing out. You have failed to really address how those bacteria got there in the first place. Did they all of a sudden just pop out of thin air or what? You seriously must be able to see that we have a creator who perfectly designed our universe and created us in the image of Him. There is no way that humans evolved from gorillas or whatever they say nowadays. God has perfectly designed everything. Last thought, is that with the complexity of say the human body (sorry I am taking advanced biology right now, couldn't help it) does it really even logically make sense to say that all of the properties of our body could come from one little tiny bacteria cell! I'll answer that for you....No it doesn't. Also, the bible though written hundreds of years ago, it still applies to our daily lives. And did you really just say that the earth has existed for more than 4 billion years? Like do you seriously believe that?

I hope I didn't sound rude at all.

[Samson Option 9652]

Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all your posts right now but I wanted to point one thing out. You have failed to really address how those bacteria got there in the first place. Did they all of a sudden just pop out of thin air or what? You seriously must be able to see that we have a creator who perfectly designed our universe and created us in the image of Him. There is no way that humans evolved from gorillas or whatever they say nowadays. God has perfectly designed everything. Last thought, is that with the complexity of say the human body (sorry I am taking advanced biology right now, couldn't help it) does it really even logically make sense to say that all of the properties of our body could come from one little tiny bacteria cell! I'll answer that for you....No it doesn't. Also, the bible though written hundreds of years ago, it still applies to our daily lives. And did you really just say that the earth has existed for more than 4 billion years? Like do you seriously believe that?

I hope I didn't sound rude at all.

Your brave for actually defending Christian religion in this regard, but I do want to point out something...

You stated 'Last thought, is that with the complexity of say the human body (sorry I am taking advanced biology right now, couldn't help it) does it really even logically make sense to say that all of the properties of our body could come from one little tiny bacteria cell!'. Actually, the human body does develop from sperm and egg, combining into a zygote. So yes, from that very small zygote do you see multiple BMIs, multiple racial and gender factors spring forth and such. I think this may be a bit of an erroneous argumentative point to use mayhaps.

[Rhett Woods 3]

Evidence for Creation

Pt. 1

In addition to the arguments made by my good friend Recon_Soldier96

Ok guys. I'm a Christian, saved by the grace of God. And I see no other explanation to the existence of this world other than that it was created by someone of higher power, namely, the God of the Bible. This is great. But ultimately, this means nothing unless I can't qualify my position, which I will endeavor to do now.

Point I. Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica"

"It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now, whatever is in motion is put into motion by another [i will explain this later] If that which is put in motion must itself be put into motion, then this also needs to be put into motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity...Therefore, it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put into motion by no other, and this everyone understands to be God."

Aquinas here is saying that everything must be put into motion in this world. But this can't go on forever, there must be something that puts everything in motion. Things that exist under the laws of Physics cannot put themselves into motion, therefore it would follow that there is only one explanation as to how this could be created, namely, a divine creater

Point II. Order

Take a look at your room right now. Is it clean? Is it messy? Should it be messy, this is obviously disorder. Should it be clean, it is order. But ask yourself, is there a way that your room can magically become clean on its own? No, of course not! You must put energy into disorder to make order. Also, disorder never, under any circumstance in today's world, leads to order

Then ask yourself two questions. Firstly, if the world is a world of order, then how could this come about by disorder? Secondly, if the world was made in disorder, there is nothing that could rule over all of created matter to put it into order. Therefore, there's no possible explanation under mortal man that disorder could have spontaneously led to order, the world had to have been created with order. This is clear in the Bible, as God is described as a God of order. The God of the universe, the God of creation, the God of the Bible, is a God of unlimited power. He is the only possible being which could put the world into order as it is now

Point III. No Evidence for Evolution

There is positively no credible evidence for the Theory of Evolution (Which, I may remind you, is still considered a scientific theory after three hundred years). There are interpretations of the fossil record, based on evidence that can mean many, many different things (The Great Flood of Noah, etc.) There is absolutely no evidence for evolution that isn't based on scientific guessing. (Already directed at carbon dating, as shown directly after the Mount Helens eruption in the 80's this was clearly shown to be false. I can clarify later if necessary.)

However, Creationism is based off of one very key element. The breathed word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "For all Scripture is God-Breathed..." This indeed includes the account in Genesis. To those who question the credibility of the Bible, it has actually shown to be incredibly historically accurate. (Cross-Reference texts of Josephus and others) I also will clarify this argument later if any of you find fault in it.

Point IV. Design

Many of you may have heard of the famed fibonacci numbers. These are numbers that continue in a pattern by adding a number to it's previous number [0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, etc.) From this is derived what some call the "Golden Rectangle" This is the most evident in the shape of a spiral, which is seen all throughout the world. (Snail Shells, the way water drains, rams horns, etc.)

One final argument before I have to go for the evening, I will continue this in the morning...

Point V. Complexity

The world is extremely complex. Every where we look, there is complexity. In the ways molecules form, in the structure of the universe, structure of galaxies, everywhere. Under the theory of evolution, this is attempted to be explained by an accident. The most beautiful thing that has ever been crafted, and you call it an accident, a mistake? The simple complexity of the world we live in, the molecules in our body, the functions it has, all of the different classes of life, the minute differences that make us all unique, all of this. The world is so complex, there is positively no way that it could come about by random chance

As a parting thought, consider this quote from former American President Ronald Reagan,

"Sometimes when I'm faced with an atheist, I am tempted to invite him to the greatest gourmet dinner that one could ever serve, and when we have finished eating that magnificent dinner, to ask him if he believes there's a cook."

Remember guys, as cliched as this sounds. God loves you. He has given you, given all of us, a great gift. Let's not blame it on an accident

In Christ,

Scott Lowery

[Vekrus 396]

Your brave for actually defending Christian religion in this regard, but I do want to point out something...

You stated 'Last thought, is that with the complexity of say the human body (sorry I am taking advanced biology right now, couldn't help it) does it really even logically make sense to say that all of the properties of our body could come from one little tiny bacteria cell!'. Actually, the human body does develop from sperm and egg, combining into a zygote. So yes, from that very small zygote do you see multiple BMIs, multiple racial and gender factors spring forth and such. I think this may be a bit of an erroneous argumentative point to use mayhaps.

Right, I understand that and was actually wondering who the first person to point that out would be so thank you. Yes I understand in that regard you prove my point further. There always has to be an origin to anything and with the logic behind Evolution there just isn't. God physically created the universe and spoke man into being. For some people they just can't believe it could be that simple. Fact is that it is that simple. All we have to do is trust in God and accept him into our lives and we can have eternal life forever with Him. (Ok so that last part I guess would go in the Death debate.)

[danic 352]

Eh... This thread is getting a bit preachy for my tastes.

Can't we just live and let live? I never understood the constant brattle over Creationism and Evolution. I just goooo with the floooww, man. Dun matter what ya think and believe in to me~

[Lego XBOX 915]

Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all your posts right now but I wanted to point one thing out. You have failed to really address how those bacteria got there in the first place. Did they all of a sudden just pop out of thin air or what?

So because I didn't explain how bacteria previously came to be there, thus the whole logic I used is destroyed? No. Look. The point is still there, evolution exists now and has for so many years. If you want to know the origin of bacteria, they developed as did all the other species, only following their own branch. Regardless... Not something necessary to the conversation.

You seriously must be able to see that we have a creator who perfectly designed our universe and created us in the image of Him. There is no way that humans evolved from gorillas or whatever they say nowadays. God has perfectly designed everything.

The funny thing is that you didn't exactly read what I said. Humans did not evolve from Gorillas. Gorillas and Humans evolved from a common ancestor which was relatively close.

Last thought, is that with the complexity of say the human body (sorry I am taking advanced biology right now, couldn't help it) does it really even logically make sense to say that all of the properties of our body could come from one little tiny bacteria cell! I'll answer that for you....No it doesn't.

Its more than ignorant to use that argument. Really, as someone has said, every human is born as a single cell. Furthermore, we didn't evolve from a tiny 'bacterial' cell but more from a single celled organism. Now, don't come up to me and start asking where this cell came from and so on, because there is no need to explain. So, really, the human body can easily come from a single cell, especially when its had 3-4 billion years to develop.

Also, the bible though written hundreds of years ago, it still applies to our daily lives. And did you really just say that the earth has existed for more than 4 billion years? Like do you seriously believe that?

The bible was written THOUSANDS of years ago, I wasn't saying it didn't apply to our daily lives. However, it doesn't render the fact that 'mentioning' something in the bible means god made it. Also, for the last bit, just because 4 billion years is off the scale of a human timeline, doesn't mean its impossible. There is solid proof on Earth's age, trust me I was doing biology...

Evidence for Creation

Pt. 1

In addition to the arguments made by my good friend Recon_Soldier96

-snip (blabber)-

Point I. Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica"

"It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now, whatever is in motion is put into motion by another [i will explain this later] If that which is put in motion must itself be put into motion, then this also needs to be put into motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity...Therefore, it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put into motion by no other, and this everyone understands to be God."

Holding this up straight away. This is one of the points for which religion overall thus creationism is negated. The fact the because you don't understand, god did it. It is the same with all religion. However, what put everything in motion was the Big Bang, even if it is a theory, its not a hypothesis as God is.

Aquinas here is saying that everything must be put into motion in this world. But this can't go on forever, there must be something that puts everything in motion. Things that exist under the laws of Physics cannot put themselves into motion, therefore it would follow that there is only one explanation as to how this could be created, namely, a divine creater

Under the laws of physics, you also see many other elements which come into action. In this case, Astrophysics trumps physics and thus the Big Bang Theory explains the origin of movement.

Point II. Order

Take a look at your room right now. Is it clean? Is it messy? Should it be messy, this is obviously disorder. Should it be clean, it is order. But ask yourself, is there a way that your room can magically become clean on its own? No, of course not! You must put energy into disorder to make order. Also, disorder never, under any circumstance in today's world, leads to order

Completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. But may I mention, without disorder there is no order, and vice-versa.

Then ask yourself two questions. Firstly, if the world is a world of order, then how could this come about by disorder? Secondly, if the world was made in disorder, there is nothing that could rule over all of created matter to put it into order. Therefore, there's no possible explanation under mortal man that disorder could have spontaneously led to order, the world had to have been created with order. This is clear in the Bible, as God is described as a God of order. The God of the universe, the God of creation, the God of the Bible, is a God of unlimited power. He is the only possible being which could put the world into order as it is now

Here you self defeat previous arguments, you are now accepting the universe was created by something which caused total chaos. Regardless, is there order in the universe today? No there isn't chaos subsides wherever order can be found. Even then, the energy mentioned would be the big bang itself. As the universe was in movement, and if we suppose its no 'in order', it could have always been able to order itself. However, being that the universe isn't 'in order' your reasoning become invalid.

Point III. No Evidence for Evolution

There is positively no credible evidence for the Theory of Evolution (Which, I may remind you, is still considered a scientific theory after three hundred years). There are interpretations of the fossil record, based on evidence that can mean many, many different things (The Great Flood of Noah, etc.) There is absolutely no evidence for evolution that isn't based on scientific guessing. (Already directed at carbon dating, as shown directly after the Mount Helens eruption in the 80's this was clearly shown to be false. I can clarify later if necessary.)

It makes me laugh, no credible evidence, I beg to differ. I see it addressed later on, so I'll just go straight to explain the dating of fossils and such. Fossils are an ambiguous record, yes. Carbon dating was obviously false after the Helens eruption, may I point out that when a volcano explodes, it creates a whole load of carbon dioxide which then stuffs up the measurements. Furthermore, those aren't the only methods used for knowing the age of earth. There are many other ways.

However, Creationism is based off of one very key element. The breathed word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "For all Scripture is God-Breathed..." This indeed includes the account in Genesis. To those who question the credibility of the Bible, it has actually shown to be incredibly historically accurate. (Cross-Reference texts of Josephus and others) I also will clarify this argument later if any of you find fault in it.

Not to be rude, but thats all the bible could ever be. A history book or historical fiction story. This is much less then credible evidence. The figure of god is a place holder of what humanity doesn't know the origins of. During the whole of time, it is that way. Examples the greeks with zeus. Zeus represents lightning as they didn't know what caused it. Its the same for god, but he generalizes all unknown things. Don't say the evolution theory has no credible evidence as the creationists just don't have any evidence whatsoever.

Point IV. Design

Many of you may have heard of the famed fibonacci numbers. These are numbers that continue in a pattern by adding a number to it's previous number [0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, etc.) From this is derived what some call the "Golden Rectangle" This is the most evident in the shape of a spiral, which is seen all throughout the world. (Snail Shells, the way water drains, rams horns, etc.)

One final argument before I have to go for the evening, I will continue this in the morning...

Everything can be related to patters, just saying, there are mathematical functions which make such weird things which aren't even patterns. This doesn't prove anything against evolutionism...

Point V. Complexity

The world is extremely complex. Every where we look, there is complexity. In the ways molecules form, in the structure of the universe, structure of galaxies, everywhere. Under the theory of evolution, this is attempted to be explained by an accident. The most beautiful thing that has ever been crafted, and you call it an accident, a mistake? The simple complexity of the world we live in, the molecules in our body, the functions it has, all of the different classes of life, the minute differences that make us all unique, all of this. The world is so complex, there is positively no way that it could come about by random chance

I beg to differ, her comes your place holder again. Because you don't understand, god obviously did it. Complexity doesn't prove anything, until recently, the Church didn't even think any of this molecule stuff existed. Lets stop using ignorance as an argument here...

-snip (more blabber)-

Right, I understand that and was actually wondering who the first person to point that out would be so thank you. Yes I understand in that regard you prove my point further. There always has to be an origin to anything and with the logic behind Evolution there just isn't. God physically created the universe and spoke man into being. For some people they just can't believe it could be that simple. Fact is that it is that simple. All we have to do is trust in God and accept him into our lives and we can have eternal life forever with Him. (Ok so that last part I guess would go in the Death debate.)

Yes, just go ahead and erase all that has been put before you and continue arguing that god created it all despite the oblivious amount of evidence against it...

[Vekrus 396]

Alright, just thought I would throw this out there. The moon is evidence that our world is not 4 billion years old. When we first landed on the moon evolutionists were all saying that there was going to be a whole lot of moon dust and that there was a chance it would be like trudging through 3 feet of snow. They even made the landing pod have huge snowshoe like surfaces on the legs so that they would not sink in. But guess what the evolutionists were wrong. The earth hasn't been around long enough for nearly that much dust to accumulate. I've talked to creationists who used to be evolutionists, and they changed their beliefs because, nothing was adding up.

[Lego XBOX 915]

Alright, just thought I would throw this out there. The moon is evidence that our world is not 4 billion years old. When we first landed on the moon evolutionists were all saying that there was going to be a whole lot of moon dust and that there was a chance it would be like trudging through 3 feet of snow. They even made the landing pod have huge snowshoe like surfaces on the legs so that they would not sink in. But guess what the evolutionists were wrong. The earth hasn't been around long enough for nearly that much dust to accumulate. I've talked to creationists who used to be evolutionists, and they changed their beliefs because, nothing was adding up.

You can't be serious... did they teach you this in school?! I can't help but laugh at this argument. No offense but it is seriously and most utterly false in all aspects of the sense. I'll just start by saying, Earth didn't have a moon since its creation, the moon came into collision with the earth further along in its history. Then, this nonsense about evolutionists saying what you say they said. Why would they say that?! No one made that conclusion, if anything you creationists would have said it... Moon dust doesn't magically appear for all we know. Then I would like to tell you to stop generalizing scientific people as evolutionists... Furthermore, if anyone has changed from one side to the other, its been from creationists to evolutionists. What doesn't add up is the creationist's total lack of evidence. It is solidly and scientifically proven that Earth is more than 4 billion years old. This is known from radiation measures, layering, magnetized memories and so much more. Lastly, the eventual snowshoe surfaces they used were surely for stabilization, if you learn about pressure distribution, you would surely know.

[Ned Lud 1260]

I'd like to see an option that incorporates more than one, because I believe in creation, evolution, deities and aliens and feel they are all elements of the same system which has been grossly misinterpreted by man.

[Vekrus 396]

Alright so I fail to see where your evidence is considering you haven't provided anything solid yet. If you really look logically at evolution, it never fully adds up. With creation we see continued backing of each piece of evidence pointing to the next. By the way, who's going to bring up carbon dating? I thought that was what the evolutionists always turned to?

1. Information

The instructions for how to build, operate, and repair living cells represent a vast amount of information (estimated at 12 billion bits). Information is a mental, non-material concept. It can never arise from a natural process and is always the result of an intelligence. Just as a newspaper story transcends the ink on the paper, life's DNA itself (like the ink) is not the information, it is simply a physical representation or housing of the information (the story). Modifying the DNA via mutation can never produce new genetic information to drive upward evolution, just as spilling coffee on the newspaper, thereby modifying the distribution of the ink, will never improve the story.

Key references: Genetic Entropy (Sanford), In the Beginning was Information (Gitt).

2. Formation of Life

Dead chemicals cannot become alive on their own. The cell is a miniature factory with many active processes, not a simple blob of "protoplasm" as believed in Darwin's day. Lightening striking a mud puddle or some "warm little pond" will never produce life. This is another view of the core issue of information as the simplest living cell requires a vast amount of information to be present. The "Law of Biogenesis" states that life comes only from prior life. Spontaneous generation has long been shown to be impossible (by Louis Pasteur in 1859). Numerous efforts to bring life from non-life (including the famous Miller-Urey experiment) have not succeeded. The probability of life forming from non-life has been likened to the probability of a tornado going through a junkyard and spontaneously assembling a working 747 airplane. The idea that life on earth may have been seeded from outer space just moves the problem elsewhere.

Key reference: Why Abiogenesis is Impossible, Jerry Bergman, CRS Quarterly, Volume 36, March 2000

3. Design of Living Things

Design is apparent in the living world. Even Richard Dawkins in his anti-creation book The Blind Watchmaker admits "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." The amazing defense mechanism of the Bombardier Beetle is a classic example of design in nature, seemingly impossible to explain as the result of accumulating small beneficial changes over time, because if the mechanism doesn't work perfectly, "boom" - no more beetle! This is also another view of the core issue of information, as the design of living things is the result of processing the information in the DNA (following the blueprint) to produce a working organism.

Key reference: The three-part video series Incredible Creatures that Defy Evolution describes many more examples like that of the Bombardier Beetle

4. Irreducible Complexity

The idea that "nothing works until everything works." The classic example is a mousetrap, which is irreducibly complex in that if one of its several pieces is missing or not in the right place, it will not function as a mousetrap and no mice will be caught. The systems, features, and processes of life are irreducibly complex. What good is a circulatory system without a heart? An eye without a brain to interpret the signals? What good is a half-formed wing? Doesn't matching male and female reproductive machinery need to exist at the same time, fully-functioning if any reproduction is to take place? Remember, natural selection has no foresight, and works to eliminate anything not providing an immediate benefit.

Key reference: Darwin's Black Box (Behe)

5. Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law of Thermodynamics refers to the universal tendency for things, on their own, to "mix" with their surrounding environment over time, becoming less ordered and eventually reaching a steady-state. A glass of hot water becomes room temperature, buildings decay into rubble, and the stars will eventually burn out leading to the "heat death" of the universe. However, the evolutionary scenario proposes that over time things, on their own, became more ordered and structured. Somehow the energy of a "Big Bang" structured itself into stars, galaxies, planets, and living things, contrary to the Second Law. It is sometimes said that the energy of the Sun was enough to overcome this tendency and allow for the formation of life on earth. However, application of energy alone is not enough to overcome this tendency; the energy must be channeled by a machine. A human must repair a building to keep it from decaying. Likewise, it is the machinery of photosynthesis which harnesses the energy of the Sun, allowing life to exist, and photosynthesis is itself a complex chemical process. The maturing of an acorn into a tree, or a zygote (the first cell resulting from fertilization) into a mature human being does not violate the Second Law as these processes are guided by the information already present in the acorn or zygote.

Key reference: The Second Law of Thermodynamics (answersingenesis.org)

6. Existence of the Universe

By definition, something must be eternal (as we have "something" today and something cannot come from "nothing", so there was never a time when there was "nothing"). Either the universe itself is eternal, or something/someone outside of and greater than the universe is eternal. We know that the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning (as evidenced by its expansion). Therefore, God (the something/someone outside of the universe) must exist and must have created the universe. Einstein showed that space and time are related. If there is no space there is no time. Before the universe was created there was no space and therefore no concept of time. This is hard for us to understand as we are space-time creatures, but it allows for God to be an eternal being, completely consistent with scientific laws. The question "who created God" is therefore an improper/invalid question, as it is a time-based question (concerning the point in time at which God came into existence) but God exists outside of time as the un-caused first cause.

7. Fine-tuning of Earth for Life

Dozens of parameters are "just right" for life to exist on this planet. For example, if the Earth were just a little closer to the Sun it would be too hot and the ocean's water would boil away, much further and it would be covered continually in ice. Earth's circular orbit (to maintain a roughly constant temperature year-round), its rotation speed (to provide days and nights not too long or short), its tilt (to provide seasons), and the presence of the moon (to provide tides to cleanse the oceans) are just some of many other examples.

The presence of large amounts of water, with its amazing special properties, is also required. Water is a rare compound in that it is lighter in a solid state than in a liquid state. This allows ponds to freeze with the ice on the surface allowing the life beneath to survive. Otherwise bodies of water would freeze from the bottom up and become solid ice. Water is also the most universal "solvent" known, allowing for dissolving/mixing with the many different chemicals of life. In fact, our bodies are 75-85% comprised of water.

Key reference: The Privileged Planet (Gonzalez/Richards)

8. Fine-tuning of Physics

The fine-tuning of the physical constants that control the physics of the universe - the settings of the basic forces (strong nuclear force constant, weak nuclear force constant, gravitational force constant, and electromagnetic force constant) are on a knife's edge. A minor change in these or any of dozens of other universal parameters would make life impossible.

The "multiverse" idea that there may be many universes and ours "just happened" to have these proper values is outside of science and could never be proven. Even then we would have to ask "what was the cause of all these universes?"

Key reference: Hugh Ross lists about 100 parameters on the Reasons To Believe web site. See also Design and the Anthropic Principle

9. Abrupt Appearance in the Fossil Record

The oldest fossils for any creature are already fully-formed and don't change much over time ("stasis"). The "Cambrian Explosion" in the "primordial strata" documents the geologically rapid appearance of most major groups of complex animals. There is no evidence of evolution from simpler forms. Birds are said to have evolved from reptiles but no fossil has ever been found having a "half-scale/half-wing". A reptile breathes using an "in and out" lung (like humans have), but a bird has a "flow-through" lung suitable for moving through the air. Can you even imagine how such a transition of the lung could have taken place? Abrupt appearance and stasis are consistent with the biblical concept of creation "according to its kind", and a world-wide flood that scoured the earth down to its basement rocks, depositing the "geologic column" and giving the appearance of a "Cambrian Explosion". Smarter, more mobile creatures would escape the flood waters longer, becoming buried in higher-level strata, leading to a burial order progressing from "simpler" forms to more complex/higher-level forms, which people now wrongly interpret as an evolutionary progression.

Key reference: Fossils Q&A (answersingenesis.org)

10. Human Consciousness

A person is a unity of body + mind/soul, the mind/soul being the immaterial part of you that is the real inner you. Chemicals alone cannot explain self-awareness, creativity, reasoning, emotions of love and hate, sensations of pleasure and pain, possessing and remembering experiences, and free will. Reason itself cannot be relied upon if it is based only on blind neurological events.

Key reference: The Origin of the Brain and Mind, Brad Harrub and Bert Thompson, CRS Quarterly, Volume 41, June 2004

11. Human Language

Language is one of the main things that separates man from the animals. No animal is capable of achieving anything like human speech, and all attempts to teach chimpanzees to talk have failed. Evolutionists have no explanation for the origin of human language. However, the Bible does. It says that the first man, Adam, was created able to speak. The Bible also explains why we have different human languages, as God had to "confuse" the common language being used in Babel after the flood, in order to force people to spread out around the world as He wanted. This was only a "surface" confusion though, as all languages express the same underlying basic ideas and concepts, enabling other languages to be learned and understood.

Key reference: The Mystery of Human Language (Morris, icr.org)

12. Sexual Reproduction

Many creatures reproduce asexually. Why would animals abandon simpler asexual reproduction in favor of more costly and inefficient sexual reproduction? Sexual reproduction is a very complex process that is only useful if fully in place. For sexual reproduction to have evolved complimentary male and female sex organs, sperm and eggs, and all the associated machinery in tandem defies the imagination.

13. The Bible's Witness

The Bible is true. The history of the Bible is true. The words of the Bible concerning our origins were given to men to write down, by God, who was the only living being present. We were not there! God said He created the universe. God said He created all living things. We know that life is much more than chemicals. God put His life into Adam and that life has been transferred from generation to generation all the way down to us!

With this I am concluding my arguments and going to let the debate continue on.

[Lego XBOX 915]

13. The Bible's Witness

The Bible is true. The history of the Bible is true. The words of the Bible concerning our origins were given to men to write down, by God, who was the only living being present. We were not there! God said He created the universe. God said He created all living things. We know that life is much more than chemicals. God put His life into Adam and that life has been transferred from generation to generation all the way down to us!

With this I am concluding my arguments and going to let the debate continue on.

What amuses me is that all I need to trump is this last point. If number 13 disappears, your whole argument falls apart. Firstly, the bible was indeed written by man. Written by man so man could understand what he could not. If you say God exists, what about all the other gods which existed before this 'God'. Explain how other civilizations have different religions. If truly 'God' created the universe, all creatures would look up to him equally. This is obviously not the case.

As I have explained time and time again, God is there for those who want an easy reasoning to what doesn't have any. Pretty much all your 13 points are based off ignorance and really only are questions and not evidence/proof of any aspect. Back to the bible though: The Bible was proved false long ago. The historical happenings in the Bible in some parts are true. The words of the Bible concerning our origins were written by men with no possible idea of what we really came from, not from God, because you can't prove his existence in any way. We were indeed not there, but other things such as radioactive rocks from 4 billion years ago were! God SAID many things, if he ever really existed, however, what one says is not what happened, he was obviously lying. We know that life is indeed actually the right assemblage of molecular structures over the ages. The Adam and Eve myth is what it is, a myth. For such to be true we would all be incest and be dead from genetical failure.

And thus I rendered your final argument invalid. Thus your argument collapsed. You are brave and courageous to take up this role of defending creationism and thus your religion, but it cannot compete against real deductions. I could demonstrate to you the in-existence of God in the same way you demonstrate why evolution doesn't exist. Simply by starting with "If God created us, why aren't we perfect? Why do we believe in different things? Why didn't he flick Hitler's head off...? Finally why are there people which question his existence?". However, this isn't really the way you prove things, this is the way you question things, which is what creationists do and always will. Their answer to all the questions will be the imagined entity named God. Really, replace God with Invisible Pink Unicorn, you'll see how silly you sound.