Your View: Crafting And The Economy

[Mankaar 166]

I would like it if it was like the Aegis skills system, not the late Asulon skill system.

Actually if I remember Aegises skill system it was indeed very good.. I agree I would really like to see that re-implemented ( at least the restrictions )

[Elindor 666]

I don't like restrictions on crafting. In theory, it would work great, but then in practice it leads to a lot of people not being able to find blacksmiths/lumberjacks/whatever(that would RPly be there) to get a small thing done because of their timezone.

This is correct because without a properly functioning shops plugin, some of us are screwed and not just because of timezones.

[blindmind 350]

This is correct because without a properly functioning shops plugin, some of us are screwed and not just because of timezones.

Agree, with both you and James. Heavier restrictions on the economy puts too much focus on the little things that could just be skipped over. Plus, I see plenty of people roleplaying professions, now, and there's no economy (or restrictions for that matter) to speak of.

[tomahawk90 5]

RP seems to have returned to where it was in Aegis, and everyone seems a good deal happier without so much restriction. The strangely overwhelming emphasis on economy drew way too much attention to very small and uninteresting details. Its more what you do with a hammer and less about where you bought it.

From reading this I understand that you say the restrictions are the cause of the problems back in Asulon, without asking yourself WHY these restrictions caused a problem. Would it be possible something else wasnt carried out correctly in Asulon, which caused the restriction system to be unworkable? If you haven't yet, could you read my post before this one or elaborate why you think the restrictions caused the problems?

Agree, with both you and James. Heavier restrictions on the economy puts too much focus on the little things that could just be skipped over. Plus, I see plenty of people roleplaying professions, now, and there's no economy (or restrictions for that matter) to speak of.

As far as I know we will have a shop plugin. If carried out correctly, the drawback you mention with not being able to find a place to get the goods you cant craft yourself will not exist. It will however encourage trade between players. If done correctly, one does not mean the other can't be used. All goods should be available to everyone, but it should be preferable to trade between players.

One can't NOT restrict the economy, because there wont be an economy. Without restrictions, why would we want to manage resource and money flow, as anyone can create anything. And as long as anyone can create anything, everything will be of 0 value. Look at the reactions when mobs started to drop leather accidentely, as soon as a good that was only available to some becomes available to anyone, the value drops to 0. Besides this all, the reasons for conflict in the world are almost always to do with the economy. Easier access to resources or strategic positions is far more important then blunt retaliation, which is usually the sole reason in LotC as we do not have to wage war on each other over valuable land or resources.

If enough shops are allowed and fi the solution with more expensive non-player controlled shops is implemented, I dont see any left over problems with the economy, and plenty of interesting new RP possibilities. One can assume that when there is a need for something, someone will jump in the gap and provide for that need, because thats where money can be made. This is realistic (=easier to RP) and workable, shops will pop up at places where people need them to be.

(...) Skills should only effect equipment iron and above ect, so people aren't too restricted on what they can do. Everyone can make simple tools mine some things farm/cook some food, ect. (...)

I would say that we should restrict crafting.. Not on wood and stone things but any higher should be hard to craft, It promotes rp.. you have to get out there and actually bother to talk to others. Improving rp immensely!

As I and others have stated before, what does that mean for fi wood and food, as opposed to ores? Would a farmer really be interested in getting a golden hoe, does a lumberjack really need a diamond axe? The answer is no, they can gather everything with stone tools already. So, would players go and talk to others to get these tools? no, they would keep crafting their stone tools and be able to go on forever. As anyone can do that, no-one but the most honorable rp-er will be willing to pay for goods he/she could simply craft him/herself. Result: the value of food, wood and all the products made with these will be near 0.

Then ores. Ore gatherers profit immensly from a better quality pickaxe, as they have to cut through masses of stone before reaching ores, and especially the best ones which cant even be gathered without having used a lower ranging ore (iron pickaxe). So, the only materials that will have value if basic tools are available to anyone, are ores and products made with these. The result: everyone willing to make money will become a miner, all other professions will die out eventually. This is not at all a solution, you're certainly not the only ones to come up with this but please read before throwing your ideas out there. ~end rant

[blindmind 350]

As far as I know we will have a shop plugin. If carried out correctly, the drawback you mention with not being able to find a place to get the goods you cant craft yourself will not exist. It will however encourage trade between players. If done correctly, one does not mean the other can't be used. All goods should be available to everyone, but it should be preferable to trade between players.

One can't NOT restrict the economy, because there wont be an economy. Without restrictions, why would we want to manage resource and money flow, as anyone can create anything. And as long as anyone can create anything, everything will be of 0 value. Look at the reactions when mobs started to drop leather accidentely, as soon as a good that was only available to some becomes available to anyone, the value drops to 0. Besides this all, the reasons for conflict in the world are almost always to do with the economy. Easier access to resources or strategic positions is far more important then blunt retaliation, which is usually the sole reason in LotC as we do not have to wage war on each other over valuable land or resources.

If enough shops are allowed and fi the solution with more expensive non-player controlled shops is implemented, I dont see any left over problems with the economy, and plenty of interesting new RP possibilities. One can assume that when there is a need for something, someone will jump in the gap and provide for that need, because thats where money can be made. This is realistic (=easier to RP) and workable, shops will pop up at places where people need them to be.

I believe this is a theory that Aegis debunks, and that Asulon tested anyway. Aegis (with a huge emphasis on early Aegis) barely had an economy. There were shops and all, but it was largely ignored in favor of putting your character out there. There was conflict aplenty, despite this, and without an economy dragging the RP down, we were set free to bite into this.

As far as I've learned, in my experience learning the ins and outs of writing and roleplay, acquiring items that aren't a major plot point in someone's life is the smallest of concerns and could do with being skipped over in favor of getting to the substantial parts of the story. What Asulon tried to do was admirable, but it filled the standard of roleplay with a large amount of unnecessary tedium. Trade is well and good, but too much focus on the little things means drawing your focus away from the bigger things. Yes, in reality, the economy is the root of all evil, but it is not so true in LotC, where people go out of their way to be evil.

[C_Fortes 2]

Crafting restrictions and leveling systems should be in place to perpetuate role playing  If everyone can do everything than it becomes much harder to regulate power-gaming. If I can wield diamond everything and craft the diamond gear then it leads to a collapse in economy and exhausts role playing possibilities that were only possible with crafting restrictions and leveling systems.

[blindmind 350]

Crafting restrictions and leveling systems should be in place to perpetuate role playing  If everyone can do everything than it becomes much harder to regulate power-gaming. If I can wield diamond everything and craft the diamond gear then it leads to a collapse in economy and exhausts role playing possibilities that were only possible with crafting restrictions and leveling systems.

Again, I'd say this is more of a theory. We can look at Aegis and the present to refute this. The world keeps spinning without the restrictions, and roleplay goes on. I believe we've discovered, truly, that powergaming has little to do with the opportunities open to the player, and more to do with the player or his/her role models. After, what, two years of experienced roleplay, I believe LotC has set enough good examples that this isn't anything we have to fear. It wasn't even much of a problem when it just started.

The only thing I can see us debating at this point is atmosphere. In the case of atmosphere, I would agree that an economy may support (or at least wants to support) a greater atmosphere. That said, it's no direct relationship. Players roleplay trades, occupations, and professions even when an economy and restrictions are forcing value on materials.

[Dwarm 70]

The Aegis system was perfect, if you'd fix the racial traits they were the best system I've seen so far.

[Ferebrill 14]

Maybe have no restrictions, but only bonuses like extra ore for miners or increased durability for armour

[Nandz64 4]

I'm sure someone must have mentioned this (not to my knowledge, but I'm sure I can't be the first one), but can't we have it work like the magic plugin from Asulon?

 

Say, everyone can craft the basics, but to craft more complex things you have to be taught either by a book, or a professional. It sort of smacks me of the system in the ESV: Skyrim - You can learn how new spells from books or teachers (in Oblivion), except this is for all things, like expensive food and armour. To make sure skill levels are still important, items can have drastically lowered durability depending on your stats.

 

Also, please don't give crafting a chance of failing. There's nothing more annoying than climbing mountains and defeating mobs only to find your simple iron sword turned into charcoal instead.

[o_Ben_o 193]

I liked the system in Aegis/the one at the beginning of Asulon.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

I think the best way would be a bonus system. Make it so that all MC items are available to everyone, but professions make it easier, or better.

 

For instance;

 

Mining: Double Drop Chance, dropping bars instead of Ore chance.

 

Blacksmithing: Tools are crafted with Unbreaking I

 

Cooking: Crafting Bread with 2 Wheat rather than one, Double Drop chance on cooked meat.

 

Fishing: Fishing up treasures

 

Farming: Double drops on crops, Maybe an ability on cooldown that insta-grows a 9x9 area.

 

Excav: Same as before, chance of items dropping.

 

Lumberjack: Double Drops, maybe triple drops, and golden apple drops.

[blindmind 350]

I think the best way would be a bonus system. Make it so that all MC items are available to everyone, but professions make it easier, or better.

 

For instance;

 

Mining: Double Drop Chance, dropping bars instead of Ore chance.

 

Blacksmithing: Tools are crafted with Unbreaking I

 

Cooking: Crafting Bread with 2 Wheat rather than one, Double Drop chance on cooked meat.

 

Fishing: Fishing up treasures

 

Farming: Double drops on crops, Maybe an ability on cooldown that insta-grows a 9x9 area.

 

Excav: Same as before, chance of items dropping.

 

Lumberjack: Double Drops, maybe triple drops, and golden apple drops.

This is kind of how it worked in the old days, and it was awesome.

[tomahawk90 5]

I believe this is a theory that Aegis debunks, and that Asulon tested anyway. Aegis (with a huge emphasis on early Aegis) barely had an economy. There were shops and all, but it was largely ignored in favor of putting your character out there. There was conflict aplenty, despite this, and without an economy dragging the RP down, we were set free to bite into this.

As far as I've learned, in my experience learning the ins and outs of writing and roleplay, acquiring items that aren't a major plot point in someone's life is the smallest of concerns and could do with being skipped over in favor of getting to the substantial parts of the story. What Asulon tried to do was admirable, but it filled the standard of roleplay with a large amount of unnecessary tedium. Trade is well and good, but too much focus on the little things means drawing your focus away from the bigger things. Yes, in reality, the economy is the root of all evil, but it is not so true in LotC, where people go out of their way to be evil.

Well, we do agree on the fact that an economy cant exist when there are no serious limitations, if I understand you correctly. I think the point where we are disagreeing is whether or not that would be a bad thing. Its hard to summarise (especially if not in your native language) so tell me if Im wrong, but I think what it comes down to is this;

I think an economy would be an incentive for roleplay, while you think it would hold rp down (very summarised here).

We have very different views of the whole experience the server should provide I guess. You think that RP will flourish because we are a Roleplaying server, and people come here to roleplay. How one gathered the items that are used for this roleplaying are therefor unimportant, as long as there is a good story going on, and you state early Aegis (I wasnt there yet unfortunately) and the current situation as examples. Am I correctly summarising here?

 

I think that it would benefit roleplay greatly if what one roleplays does actually make "real" sense in game. So, if I am out in the woods and I run out of food, I will swear at myself and walk all the way back to find a farmer willing to sell stuff. I think when things aren't limited, no-one would do that, as you could just build a small farm right there. Ofcourse, you can still walk all the way back to find that farmer if you so please, but most of us wouldn't (I dont). Therefor, the farmer is useless. Restricting what one can do would mean the farmer would actually feel useful when growing crops, for there will be those who NEED to buy it for they cant craft it themselves.

 

In the current situation, roleplaying fi a farmer isnt doable, for no-one needs your produce so no one will come to rp with you. This in turn leads to a lot of would-be farmers running around in the world looking for their own big adventure. That at least is what I see happening in the current world, some more experienced players are running their kingdoms/clans/order/etc. while the less experienced or less involved players are part of those organisations and havent got much more to do. I went and offered to mine for the elves, but they will never accept as they can simply do it themselves, so only the racial rp is left. There is nothing I can add to the world by simply playing my mining character, the only thing in which I can stand out is with having the most epic adventures or aspire to become a commander of this or that. If professions were in place, someone would need my skills in mining, and I would need someone to for my food and tool supply. I think thats an example of adding to rp.

 

I understand your view when you say that these rather unimportant items should not take up time that could be spend roleplaying something greater, but this I think is mainly true if we are all going to play heroes and villains. Without restrictions, the "simple folks", lumberjacks, miners, farmers etc, would have no rp at all unless someone is kind enough to pretend they cant provide the items themselves. No restrictions will lead to everyone gathering the resources they need where and when they need them, before setting out on their own "big adventure", without any regard of how they really got the items. Having someone who is capable of gathering the resource a little faster does not chance anything to this. If I run out of pickaxes, I will go outside, cut down a few trees, build me some new pickaxes and go in to mine again. If Im out of food, I will make a farm, grow some wheat, replant the farm, make myself some bread and go back into the mine. Im not going to look for someone who would maybe make a better yield out of my farm, and Im not going to RP I cant do these things even though I would rather have my character find a lumberjack and a farmer to do it for me. Also, the lumberjacks and farmers of the server are usually not there, because they are fi out mining to get some stone for a new axe or hoe, or more frequently are out on a big heroic adventure because they got bored doing a job no-one needs (shops would help, but thats another topic).

 

You say that acquiring items that arent a major plot point for you character should not be a big concern, but with that, arent you actually saying that you have a planned future for your character, instead of letting the surroundings determine the future of your character? I do not know what "plot" my character will be in, so I do not know in advance what is or isnt a major plot point. As an example, I was planning on mining a set amount of stone for the dwarves, ran out of food and in my search for food I ran into someone who offered me a steady supply of food and a roof above my head if I would work for him. This happened only because I refused to just grow my own food on the spot, and because of this, the simple fact that I was in search of something to eat might be a very big plot point in my characters life, as I now have a job in an order I would otherwise never have noticed. I think thats much more RP then my mining dwarf tending a farm and cutting trees and slaying mobs when he needs something.

[Kaun 102]

Add levels back in and have everything craftable to everyone but your level will reflect on the power of what you craft.