argonian 14254 Share Posted July 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Joe / joenaj / Yemekar said: Yes but the server updated. And with polls, it showed a that a reasonable amount players would be in favor of 1.9 pvp without lag. Hence they try to employ a situation with 1.9 that reduces lag. They did what the community responded saying to do. The Devs can't just magic away the shittons of extra packets being sent by swing timers. The lag will stay. Also, the portion that wanted pre 1.9 combat was still the largest despite the dubious promise of 1.9 with no lag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaezae 1098 Share Posted July 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Free The Hobbits said: Maybe the finances aren't doing well because nobody wants to donate to a game that thinks they are a fortune 500 company. I seriously doubt the 'timers' are sending their own packets. What most likely is happening is that the whole timer thing is only really being checked with each attack. I would bet money that the packets are the same with or without timers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equinox 245 Share Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, zaezae said: I seriously doubt the 'timers' are sending their own packets. What most likely is happening is that the whole timer thing is only really being checked with each attack. I would bet money that the packets are the same with or without timers. Smack - Packet You try to smack again under cool down - Packet determining if you are under cool-down You try again? - Packet determining if you are under cool-down Again? - Packet determining if you are under cool-down, COOL DOWN IS OVER SMACK - Packet I hope you understand that a server has to run between 200 or so people and their individual timers, and then output a effect that is part of the logic behind the timers. It's a dumb addition, mind you. I'm not fighting that it should stay, but the idea that timers don't have a packet is straight false. Even with the idea its a single packet, and its checking the 'time' on that packet is up. It still has to check, which is still manpower being allocated to checking a timer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free The Hobbits 859 Share Posted July 15, 2016 3 hours ago, zaezae said: I seriously doubt the 'timers' are sending their own packets. What most likely is happening is that the whole timer thing is only really being checked with each attack. I would bet money that the packets are the same with or without timers. Timers are sending packets, there are about 300 timers going at once if everyone is crafting that the server needs to keep track of. Plus Nexus changing the biome type of each region every so often puts a lot of load on the server. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrynn 1349 Share Posted July 15, 2016 8 hours ago, Free The Hobbits said: Timers are sending packets, there are about 300 timers going at once if everyone is crafting that the server needs to keep track of. Plus Nexus changing the biome type of each region every so often puts a lot of load on the server. Nexus itself doesn't create lag in warclaims, it's the amount of packets being sent between people all at once. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaezae 1098 Share Posted July 15, 2016 9 hours ago, Equinox said: Smack - Packet You try to smack again under cool down - Packet determining if you are under cool-down You try again? - Packet determining if you are under cool-down Again? - Packet determining if you are under cool-down, COOL DOWN IS OVER SMACK - Packet I hope you understand that a server has to run between 200 or so people and their individual timers, and then output a effect that is part of the logic behind the timers. It's a dumb addition, mind you. I'm not fighting that it should stay, but the idea that timers don't have a packet is straight false. Even with the idea its a single packet, and its checking the 'time' on that packet is up. It still has to check, which is still manpower being allocated to checking a timer. I don't really know exactly what's going on, but it would just seem that you would send a packet on an input, like a left click on a person, and the server would just check the time of your last click on that person and do a little math. If doing a little bit of math causes lag then there is something very wrong with minecraft. Besides, I thought the issue was that you have to get packets about everyone in your area. But yeah, getting the time, subtracting two numbers, then doing division between two more numbers is not a difficult thing for a computer to do. A server having to send two hundred people packets about everyone else however might be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neri 3590 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I'm pretty sure swing timers are clientside but they can be wrong compared to what the server is expecting or has stored. Swing timers are always the same speed even when tickrate drops to a fraction of what it normally is, so I doubt thats the issue. There's not really much point debating this when nobody but the techs knows how it works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Druid Ouity 1461 Share Posted July 15, 2016 The big point that everyone seems to miss is that lag during warclaims never used to be even remotely this bad. The WORST of it was in Asulon, and even then you were looking at maybe 3-5 seconds of latency at the most. When I logged on at the same time as a warclaim for the first time on this map I was in awe. The lag is ridiculous and we shouldn't need to have three maps and 20 player capped battles in order to fix it. If we have a piece of tech on the server that works THAT badly, it should be removed or replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaezae 1098 Share Posted July 15, 2016 17 minutes ago, Wolf Druid Ouity said: The big point that everyone seems to miss is that lag during warclaims never used to be even remotely this bad. The WORST of it was in Asulon, and even then you were looking at maybe 3-5 seconds of latency at the most. When I logged on at the same time as a warclaim for the first time on this map I was in awe. The lag is ridiculous and we shouldn't need to have three maps and 20 player capped battles in order to fix it. If we have a piece of tech on the server that works THAT badly, it should be removed or replaced. That technology seems to be the updated minecraft. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Druid Ouity 1461 Share Posted July 15, 2016 41 minutes ago, zaezae said: That technology seems to be the updated minecraft. I somehow highly doubt that minecraft 1.8 and onwards causes the game to lag out for up to ten minutes of literal game halting DDoS-style insanity when anywhere from 20-50 people are near each other. Somehow. People ever since Asulon have been like "Ah, it's just minecraft! Minecraft is the thing that makes minecraft so laggy!" Whilst somehow for over half a decade other servers have run near flawlessly not only on the vanilla game, but hosting a ton of custom plugins as well. At some point we should probably accept the fact that there's something that we need to do on our end to host a stable server-- because I guarantee that if I logged onto any major server right now, I could get into a minigame with fifty other players and have no issues at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaezae 1098 Share Posted July 15, 2016 26 minutes ago, Wolf Druid Ouity said: I somehow highly doubt that minecraft 1.8 and onwards causes the game to lag out for up to ten minutes of literal game halting DDoS-style insanity when anywhere from 20-50 people are near each other. Somehow. People ever since Asulon have been like "Ah, it's just minecraft! Minecraft is the thing that makes minecraft so laggy!" Whilst somehow for over half a decade other servers have run near flawlessly not only on the vanilla game, but hosting a ton of custom plugins as well. At some point we should probably accept the fact that there's something that we need to do on our end to host a stable server-- because I guarantee that if I logged onto any major server right now, I could get into a minigame with fifty other players and have no issues at all. I mean, but it has already been demonstrated how it is minecraft and not other things. Generally, not many servers boast several hundred players on a custom plugin on a map with thousands of entities in a single chunk in places. Certain systems have limits and we're clearly bumping up against it. Just how minecraft's networking changes have made it more difficult to support hundred of players trying to PVP on a map with tons of entities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Druid Ouity 1461 Share Posted July 15, 2016 22 minutes ago, zaezae said: I mean, but it has already been demonstrated how it is minecraft and not other things. Generally, not many servers boast several hundred players on a custom plugin on a map with thousands of entities in a single chunk in places. Certain systems have limits and we're clearly bumping up against it. Just how minecraft's networking changes have made it more difficult to support hundred of players trying to PVP on a map with tons of entities. I would love to see this demonstration or proof that vanilla Minecraft has become literally unplayable. I suppose the techs might have put it out there at some point or another? At the very least it's a case of boy-who-cried-wolf for me. I've heard it too many times to really take the excuse seriously. There are plenty of servers that have close quarters combat between probably over a hundred people at the same time. What's that one everybody loves with all the different maps that's CTF style? Oh well. What I'm saying is not that it isn't diffult-- I'm saying that a ton of other servers have already found their solutions, and those solutions aren't 20 person PVP caps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaezae 1098 Share Posted July 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Wolf Druid Ouity said: I would love to see this demonstration or proof that vanilla Minecraft has become literally unplayable. I suppose the techs might have put it out there at some point or another? At the very least it's a case of boy-who-cried-wolf for me. I've heard it too many times to really take the excuse seriously. There are plenty of servers that have close quarters combat between probably over a hundred people at the same time. What's that one everybody loves with all the different maps that's CTF style? Oh well. What I'm saying is not that it isn't diffult-- I'm saying that a ton of other servers have already found their solutions, and those solutions aren't 20 person PVP caps. It isn't boy-who-cried-wolf if the problem hasn't gone away. If the platform is the problem then and you do not get off that platform, then yes that platform will continue to be a problem. If what they are saying is true, it isn't an excuse, it's simply the truth. Besides, you know a great way to deal with this issue? Have dank money to invest in better hardware. I've seen these servers, and truth be told, they are quite massive. One CTF I got invited on had ten different servers on the same address. But this is based off of what has been said elsewhere. I'm not an expert but the explanation have heard has been echoed on other servers as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent™ 552 Share Posted July 15, 2016 To those of you who don't understand packets, here is the simple math. I'd like one of the coders to correct me if I get any of the numbers wrong. Say there are 10 people within view distance of each other. Each player has to send 1 packet to the server for each person in their view distance. So, 10x9=90 , there are 90 packets being sent to the server. This also happens every tick, and there are 20 ticks per second. So every second we have 1800 packets being sent just to see the other players. Now lets say someone fires an arrow. That arrow is seen by all 10 players, creating 10 more packets every tick until it either stops, or leaves view distance. If it travels for 1 second then hits a wall, it will have sent 200 ticks. These numbers are relatively small, so let's scale up to warclaim size. Let's say each side has 100 people. Currently each side is in their respective area, so the opposing forces cannot see each other. Still, 100 players can see each other, and a packet has to be sent from each player to every other player that can see them. So, 100 players have to send out 99 packets 100x99=9900 , and they do so every tick, 9900x20=198000 . 198000 packets being sent every second, just for each seperate side. Now when these sides meet each other, the number of packets doesn't simply double. Instead now you have 200 players sending 199 packets, each, to the server to then be sent to each player. 200x199=39800 , and so every second 39800x20=796000. That is just for each player's location, not counting their attacks, when they take damage, etc. On top of that every arrow that is fired, let's say it has a flight time of 1 second, has to send 200 packets a tick resulting in 200x20=4000 packets being sent for each arrow fired. Let's say there are close to 100 other people firing arrows, so 4000x100=400000 packets each second for all those arrows. Meaning that in a 100 vs. 100 warclaim 1,196,000 packets are sent every second for just seeing the other players, and all the arrows getting fired. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackhen 68 Share Posted July 17, 2016 the siege thing sounds stupid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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