A View on Orcs

[Caravaggio 146]

Just now, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Sometimes you need to agree to unfavourable terms if you want to avoid destruction, especially when you're facing a generally stronger power capable of using bigger army diplomacy.

 

While I agree out of character, it would not make sense in roleplay- that treaty would have brought dishonor to the orcs, but also the spirits. It demands Orcs cast aside a Shaman tradition, which we would not do. In essence what I am trying to say is while OOCly we might say that it is a good thing, it would make no sense in RP for an orc to agree to those terms.

[2samspan 241]

2 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

 

I can attest that we have, in fact, given diplomacy a chance. Some of our leaders have had extensive talks in an attempt to actually get a chance to rebuild. And the reason so many Orcs have been against the terms given is because we flat out cannot accept them. Orcs are, by nature, proud and strong believers in honoring their ancestors, and would not break down and submit in order to save themselves, as doing so would be spitting in the faces of their ancestors and, here is the big thing, DISHONORABLE. Doing so would be doubly hard based on the Orcish code of honor which, due to out blessing, we would have to follow. 

 

So we are stuck in a situation, both IC and OOC, where we are committed to roleplaying and following our lore, and have made leaps and bounds toward trying to adjust how we act to be less antagonistic. We have, ares I already said, engaged in extensive peace talks with other major leaders to try and change the terms so that we can maybe get some respite from the constant string of warclaims we have seen since the start of Axios. 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

8 minutes ago, Caravaggio said:

 

That's where we're at an impass then. Because as far as I know, as long as the orcs refuse to capitulate to peace terms which ensure they will remain passive and a non-threat to Oren (in Oren's eyes) then Oren will continue to consider them a threat.

 

Edit: I know you guys are big on pride, warrior culture and honour and also want to stop being warred on, but at some point both OOCly and ICly you gotta realize that unless you can beat Oren in a war (which right now you can't), you cant have both.

 

You shouldn't talk of adapting as if its some OOC impossibility and use 'it doesn't make sense in RP' as a crutch as to why you can't accept unfavourable peace treaty terms. Any race is capable of making major changes to ensure their survival. The elves did back in Athera, when we were at rock bottom. Now you guys are at rock bottom and you need to do the same.

[Catarrh 720]

31 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

 Infact from what I hear you were looking to make peace but then were deposed by an anti-oren faction who was pro-war.

You're half-right. The faction wasn't really pro-war. They just didn't wanna abandon the dwarves after they'd been so cool to orcs, and saw Kulgarok's (divine's orc) actions as dishonorable. So, it was less about being pro-war or anti-oren, and more about being pro-let's-not-leave-dwarves-high-and-dry. 

[2samspan 241]

10 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

That's where we're at an impass then. Because as far as I know, as long as the orcs refuse to capitulate to peace terms which ensure they will remain passive and a non-threat to Oren (in Oren's eyes) then Oren will continue to consider them a threat.

 

Edit: I know you guys are big on pride, warrior culture and honour and also want to stop being warred on, but at some point both OOCly and ICly you gotta realize that unless you can beat Oren in a war (which right now you can't), you cant have both.

 

You shouldn't talk of adapting as if its some OOC impossibility and use 'it doesn't make sense in RP' as a crutch as to why you can't accept unfavourable peace treaty terms. Any race is capable of making major changes to ensure their survival. The elves did back in Athera, when we were at rock bottom. Now you guys are at rock bottom and you need to do the same.

We are making changes though. We've stopped raiding for the most part (read: except for one or two new players), abolished slavery, and tried to become more interesting tips interact with and more acceptable to these powers. I, for example, have done work to make Gorkil, one of the clans most revered for fighting and 'savagery' as some might put it, into something that will not jeopardize our nation. 

 

I understand where you are coming from, though. I will not discard your points or devalue them. Elves had to change to survive with little uproar, while now Orcs are constantly whining and trying to be saved by GMs or admins. But, as I have said in my previous post, Orcs are bound by their lore, their blessings and curses. We are changing as much as we can, but the severe limitations set by both our curse and our blessing make it difficult to adapt in a way that will appease Oren or other powers while not breaking lore. And as I've said, we have been changing. But even with all that, we are constantly getting warred or antagonized or otherwise having our progress towards changing impeded. 

[PtahWithin 1320]

Leowarrior does speak extensively from experience when he talks about what happened to the elves when they were on the wrong end of the stick with regards with Oren, so to speak. I don't know how the elves are doing now, but at the time Malinor (not Haelun'or, they were doing well) was in one of the lowest periods of its existence. This had begun before their conflict with Oren, and so it is disheartening to see that the Orcs appear to be in a similar situation now. In addition it does look like the Orcs have fewer options, since capitulation was always available to the elves, but as some have explained in the thread this isn't really an option for the Orcs. There was a lot of talk at the time for what to do about the elves, and many people tried to assist, including myself (I failed (several times)), but many had widely different ideas for what should be done. I don't know enough about the exact characteristics of the Orcish situation, but I would focus on yourselves first and Oren second, and to establish a consensus as soon as possible about what to do.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Just now, 2samspan said:

 Elves had to change to survive with little uproar,

To be fair Anthos was pretty uproarious (see: White Rose Exodus) but come Athera we got our **** together and capitulated in RP which turned out to be more effective and beneficial to us than OOC whining and GM intervention ever did. Take it from us.

 

Eventually you'll need to capitulate to survive and on that day you can't use your race's curse as a crutch. Same with the elves. Why would the elves ever participate in any wars considering our (supposed) low population and fertility rates? That's our lore, but we had to adapt to ensure basic survival.

[Man of Respect 5471]

3 hours ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

To be fair Anthos was pretty uproarious (see: White Rose Exodus) but come Athera we got our **** together and capitulated in RP which turned out to be more effective and beneficial to us than OOC whining and GM intervention ever did. Take it from us.

 

Eventually you'll need to capitulate to survive and on that day you can't use your race's curse as a crutch. Same with the elves. Why would the elves ever participate in any wars considering our (supposed) low population and fertility rates? That's our lore, but we had to adapt to ensure basic survival.

woah man its hard to change your mindstet

If I was a high elf, I would've honestly gave in to Oren long ago and I would be already charging at the orcs on warclaims. Yes, I know we have to adapt and all to stay alive, but that's it. I can't agree any less that we need to do something to survive, but, we are bound by honor and lore reasons to fight against our enemies. It's an old cliche. No one considers fertility when applying as an elf, they just want to be some sort of Legolas or magical elven person with voiduii fireballs

 

I know that the curse makes it a crutch and a problemn, but that's what makes it good and unique too. I don't like to live under the constant fear of being turned on at the end of things. This will happen if Oren takes over the server, want it or not. Just imagine if dwarves and orcs simply ceased to exist like everyone wants to? Both of them, like, just think about it. Sutica, then Haria, then...?

 

I'm not saying that there is an OOC reason, but there is a RP reason, something that a small portion of the server actually understands, stop pushing for peace, man, you keep insisting and you keep getting the same reply over and over. If we ever became vassalized, I would quit orcs and make a human instead of straight out being a green human

[Samson Option 9652]

Wait... Why is the bloodlust curse a problem? Aren't Orcs humanoid socio-mentally? Wouldn't they still possess the will to manifest surrender (as well as fight-flight) as an option as humans do when they are in a life-threatening situation? I didn't think Orcs were like most animals where its only the fight-flight instinct.

[Smaw 2376]

Not sure why it's so hard to understand our reluctance to bend the knee. I mean, when you're guaranteed an after life, wouldn't you fight to the end?

 

I'm also not sure which GMs we're supposed to be crying to, or how this is an OOC complaint.

 

This, and many posts before it are reflective of what our inner issues are and how we might resolve them; not our political affairs.

[Praetor 1550]

11 minutes ago, Smaw said:

Not sure why it's so hard to understand our reluctance to bend the knee. I mean, when you're guaranteed an after life, wouldn't you fight to the end?

 

I'm also not sure which GMs we're supposed to be crying to, or how this is an OOC complaint.

 

This, and many posts before it are reflective of what our inner issues are and how we might resolve them; not our political affairs.

 

(Sorry if stuff I mentiont have been tried before, I haven't followed Lotc in two and a half years.)

 

Reform, restructure your way of ruling. Be what Thrall is to Garrosh. Don't follow the curse like it's holy scripture, bend it a little bit. Humans don't follow it like hardliners (or at least some don't), elves certainly have never respected their curse. Just because you see red and get mad sometimes doesn't mean you're a stupid beast.

 

Try to present an attractive facade to new players. Build cool bases or forts, have interesting events. I don't know much about orcs but you could probably talk to someone in Oren to set up something without your players knowledge. Try to post interesting things on the forums. (A lot of pictures, inspiring things that make people want to be an orc...)

 

Blah generally just makes orcs look like green humans with an extra chromosome, so try to cut down on that a bit too (I heard you are already?). I can't take orcs seriously when they speak like that.

 

I remember that orcs used to be one of the more popular nations. Perhaps overcomplicating blah and making shamanism so prevalent are mistakes. As I said before, reform. Remove some clans, merge others, limit the positions of power so people have something to aspire too.

[2samspan 241]

43 minutes ago, Gaius Marius said:

Wait... Why is the bloodlust curse a problem? Aren't Orcs humanoid socio-mentally? Wouldn't they still possess the will to manifest surrender (as well as fight-flight) as an option as humans do when they are in a life-threatening situation? I didn't think Orcs were like most animals where its only the fight-flight instinct.

That is a problem because, due to that, Orcs would need to choose fight. But I think our blessing is a little bit more important as to why we can't. 

[Smaw 2376]

31 minutes ago, Praetor said:

 

(Sorry if stuff I mentiont have been tried before, I haven't followed Lotc in two and a half years.)

 

Reform, restructure your way of ruling. Be what Thrall is to Garrosh. Don't follow the curse like it's holy scripture, bend it a little bit. Humans don't follow it like hardliners (or at least some don't), elves certainly have never respected their curse. Just because you see red and get mad sometimes doesn't mean you're a stupid beast.

 

Try to present an attractive facade to new players. Build cool bases or forts, have interesting events. I don't know much about orcs but you could probably talk to someone in Oren to set up something without your players knowledge. Try to post interesting things on the forums. (A lot of pictures, inspiring things that make people want to be an orc...)

 

Blah generally just makes orcs look like green humans with an extra chromosome, so try to cut down on that a bit too (I heard you are already?). I can't take orcs seriously when they speak like that.

 

I remember that orcs used to be one of the more popular nations. Perhaps overcomplicating blah and making shamanism so prevalent are mistakes. As I said before, reform. Remove some clans, merge others, limit the positions of power so people have something to aspire too.

 

Indeed, we are taking active steps to rectify this perception of us.

 

Blah has undergone a significant change (for those willing) and the new settlement we're working on is honestly beautiful; I can't wait to see it implemented.

 

It's not really our bloodlust, since we didn't even start this War. It's a factor of honour, both IC and OOC.

 

We know it's shitty to fight Oren but we'll continue until we get reasonable terms; or die trying.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

On 12/25/2016 at 6:18 AM, Smaw said:

We know it's shitty to fight Oren but we'll continue until we get reasonable terms; or die trying.

Bare in mind reasonable terms doesn't necessarily equate to equal terms, especially when (once again) one side is objectively stronger and has bigger army diplomacy at its disposal.

[Wendigo 786]

Moved to the Archive. It shall be sorted into the appropriate category shortly.