Crash Out Mission: The Misleading of Regular Players

[Ryanark 2738]

When you see unacceptable behavior, man the **** up and call it out. Even if it's your friends. Stop talking about this "they did, they said," — Who?

You are involved in a pretend war. It takes little to no energy to be compassionate to the other side. Even when you are solely here for PVP; what makes a great PVPer is one who can treat their opponent with respect and dignity. It is basic sportsmanship.

 

Thank you Gaius for making this post and giving a voice to this player, and that you took the time to give your own thoughts was very insightful. I hope that in the future, for this war, and for wars beyond that, players won't hesitate to take names and take this toxicity by the root when they witness it. It is very real, and can turn a war ugly quickly.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

My PoV on the war is skewed for what I think and have seen directly - I'm not a fan of people OOCly bothering me for what my character chooses to do. Why should I, the player, go against what my character thinks or does so the nation can get +1 to its rally size? It just irks me fundamentally that a WC comes around, and people seem to borderline expect others to sideline RP for the warclaims/rally/PvP. I do not spend my time on LoTC to do PvP,  and I definitely didn't have a persona just to throw away their character the second someone starts screaming RALLY RALLY RALLY in a 3rd party discord purely made to make large rallies possible without metagaming. It doesn't help all wars are deathwars, based on how the server operates them - You really cant do anything BUT wipe out your opponent because they'll wipe out you. It effectively encourages victory by any means you can get, and this is where I believe a lot of the OOC problems derive from - Good Faith RP has no place in a mechanical, PvP/OOC war.

 

That is not to say good faith RP cannot exist during wartime, or isn't done. It's just typically been what I've seen it's rarer, and more a reflection upon a individual then a community. I guess more simply, if you told me I had a choice of going to ST events and fighting darkspawn players with some semblance of good faith [we're going to CRP in a way that promotes lore, and not how to best maximize advantages through the lackluster CRP rules] versus dealing with a lot of people who want PvP because its faster or rallies snowball in sizes, and whom maximize every rule to ensure they have the best chance of winning, I'd take the option that keeps me away from the PvP. I don't like it, I'm not here for it, and I don't feel like anyone on this server has a right or obligation to force me to do it if I'm not partaking in the warclaim that mandates it. 

 

All players really have a obligation to do the bare minimum to be respectful of one another which is often easily forgotten and unloaded onto the NL as their responsibility, something I've been guilty of. Maybe I am simply tweaking but a lot of things could go better if there was just a effort somewhere to recognize hey, maybe we should put the people behind the screens before the RP sometimes. We all have a choice of how far we let things go in RP at the detriment of others IRPly and OOCly and I don't think it'd kill people to just kinda chill sometimes, on all sides. 

 

 

[tilly 5115]

3 hours ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

The goal of lotc is to have fun, who cares if you win, loose, die or loose all your rp items. Will it really matter in a week, a month or a year? Caring too much about these things will only make you sad and angry.

I think it is natural to care about the things you’ve spent hours upon hours cultivating, only to have someone randomly (don't care if it’s an orc, a regular bandit, or someone on an opposing side of a war) come up and kill you or war your nation for total destruction, then tell you to touch grass afterward when you’re upset. 
 

A lot of RP’ers put in a lot of effort into creating their characters, getting their magic, getting their special feats, etc. On the other side of the coin, a lot of communities have spent an unquantifiable amount of time creating their culture, their individual niches, their hubs, etc. It’s hard to differentiate IC/OOC intentions when the frustration of all you’ve created is being destroyed or stolen (or even the threat of it). It’s even worse when people of an opposing side are DM’ing you things OOC about how they will make an xyz out of your nation, or how you should give up (again, OOCly). It’s like destroying someone’s diorama and ripping up the story they’ve written surrounding it, only to say, “Well I mean, you couldn’t stop me from destroying it, so does it really matter? Get over it!”
 

I’m not saying you’d do this, @DrunkPapaBear, they’re just my thoughts and experiences over the years, and most importantly, during this conflict. 

[JoshBright 3014]

14 minutes ago, tilly said:

-snip-

Spoiler

tilly post +1

 

[Yeetboy0206 1574]

19 minutes ago, Gavin_ said:

This has been a major issue on LOTC for a very, very long time. I myself experienced it as NL of Haelun'or during the Haelun'or vs Ivarielle (C'nor) War. Not only was I demonized and vilified IC'ly (fine), but also OOC'ly (not fine), as were members of the community (we're all nazi's, eugenicists, etc).

I think that because the stakes are so high in this war, people tend to factionalize to the nth degree - this is a deathwar after all (something I personally disagree with from both an IC and an OOC standpoint, though others disagree and have legitimate reasons for doing so). When players factionalize to such an extent, there is almost an onus both IC'ly and OOC'ly to invest your soul into the conflict, and when this happens, we tend to justify any and all actions that we take because after all, it is a life or death situation.

What I would really love to see (and it is not something I have seen often despite joining this server 2 weeks after it launched), is good faith, narrative driven RP where we all try to contribute to the narrative of the other person - it isn't my story, but a shared story, and that is the essence of what LOTC is supposed to be.

My suggestion is that going forward, leaders of either side need to OOC'ly have a chat and discuss what are legitimate goals and outcomes for the conflict. Not every war has to lead to total destruction and forced vassalization. Also, unfortunately it needs to be said, but more talking between leaders and communities is important to avoid any kind of harassment, character bleed, etc. LOTC can be a nasty place at times, let's try and make it a bit better and lead by example.

I agree with this post. So much of the toxicity I've experienced from this war has come simply because of the stress of the stakes. When the entire nation that many people consider their community is being existentially threatened, and they start seeing signs of people pursuing this war for OOC reasons, even if they aren't in leadership or represent the entire community, then it's going to make people upset and spread toxicity. I had someone outright trying to convince me OOCly that the side I'm on, the Covenant, was apparently taking advantage of my ASD, to try and convince me to join the other side. I won't say who they are, as I also refused to in the post mentioned by Ibn because I'd rather let it die in silence, but it's a good example of just how maligned people's perspectives can be in war. I know several good players on the other side of the war, and they're really fun to RP with,  shout out to @rigorous, but unfortunately they're not the face of the war, nor do people hold more value in good things done by people from the enemy than the bad things done by people from the enemy. 

It also causes heightened tensions inside factions as well. I can't speak for the Holy League, but there's a very strong and toxic divide between PVP and RP-focused members of the Covenant, with complaints about low rally numbers because of people choosing not to rally, when instead they're just unable to because of IRL, or that some people are taking the war too seriously or not seriously enough and insulting them for it. And this can escalate into behavior that winds up hurting everyone involved, and just makes it even harder to properly play a war. And that's not simply the fault of leadership, it's also the fault of the player bases. When people are on the same side of a conflict but want different things out of it, they're going to clash. And after a certain point, it just becomes unbearable, where even the slightest attempt to contribute to the war effort can be attacked for either not being enough, or being too much. 

I agree that leaders need to OOCly have chats and discuss wars beforehand, because it affects more than just their player base. And if they can't make good conflict RP out of it without creating unnecessary and harmful toxicity between or within their player bases, then perhaps it would be best if they didn't war at all. It's pretty clear, to me at least, that this war is ultimately pointless. We're coming close to the end of this map, it's dragged nearly every nation but the Vale into it and has created a lot of distrust between the player bases involved, and has ultimately harmed the server and its goals more than helped them. Not every war is like this, but when it is, don't tell people the problem is just from their point of view. People on both sides are getting tired of this war and are not getting enjoyment out of it anymore. If this war isn't enjoyable for anyone but a select few, what's the point of continuing it from either side? I'm genuinely curious now as to how people from either side can justify continuing the war as it is now. I know the Covenant at least has the reason of nation death and being forcibly vassalized, but what about the people on the Holy League's end? Why do you want to continue this war if you're not having fun? At the end of the day, nothing is stopping both sides from stopping but themselves, so something must make all the bad worth it.

17 minutes ago, tilly said:

I think it is natural to care about the things you’ve spent hours upon hours cultivating, only to have someone randomly (don't care if it’s an orc, a regular bandit, or someone on an opposing side of a war) come up and kill you or war your nation for total destruction, then tell you to touch grass afterward when you’re upset. 
 

A lot of RP’ers put in a lot of effort into creating their characters, getting their magic, getting their special feats, etc. On the other side of the coin, a lot of communities have spent and unquantifiable amount of time creating their culture, their individual niches, their hubs, etc. It’s hard to differentiate IC/OOC intentions when the frustration of all you’ve created is being destroyed or stolen (or even the threat of it). It’s even worse when people of an opposing side are DM’ing you things OOC about how they will make an xyz out of your nation, or how you should give up (again, OOCly). It’s like destroying someone diorama and ripping up the story they’ve written surrounding it, only to say, “Well I mean, you couldn’t stop me from destroying it, so does it really matter? Get over it!”
 

I’m not saying you’d do this, @DrunkPapaBear, they’re just my thoughts and experiences over the years, and most importantly, during this one. 

Also W tilly post.

Anyways, you're free to hold your own opinions on the matter, I can't reach through the screen and change them. 

 

 

[Kholibrii 1211]

1 hour ago, Lirinya said:

Preface, I'm sorry for quoting you twice. I'm not singling you out, you just made some valid points and am using you to indirectly reply.

 

 

It is far more easier said than done to win a raid, you're right. As someone who hates PVP, there is a severe lack of interest in it all when every nation discord and war discord pings several times a day for the same thing. You can certainly tell the difference between those who are hyped for it, and those who are going along with it because it's expected of them OOCly as someone from one of the warring nations. It's easy to see why people don't take part and therefore, rally numbers aren't high enough and therefore, wars are lost. It isn't always an exciting situation to be in. I was semi hyped for the first war. It was well hyped OOCly and ICly it was a big drama point. But now, and it might be because I dislike PVP or time constraints, or for other personal reasons, it feels like a chore.

 

The concept of spending every saturday evening rallying up through several discord pings, making a specific time, listening to people shouting confusing and conflicting orders in VC just isn't appealing and I'm sure I'm not the only person to think that. If I didn't feel obliged to rally, I wouldn't take part for the enjoyment of it, you know? Can we just not cap wars at a certain number for people who do enjoy PVP and just let them loose somewhere? I'd watch that stream like it was an esports match.

 

Now in terms of entering the war. The average person really doesn't have a choice. Perhaps those that don't enter the war are the ones who don't rally, but by proxy they are still part of the war. It's not really something you can avoid, unless you are from a totally neutral state. A friend of my own doesn't take part in PVP, but they are indirectly still on a side of the war and have to face IRP consequences which are well out of their control.

 

 

 

The slice of life rpers like their little worlds whereas the more outgoing or conflict players (people who solely play bandits, bad guys, chaotic characters etc) will always clash in some manner. Because one side likes peace and the other likes to shake that up. Nothing wrong with shaking it up, by the way.

 

When Nevaehlen was warred at by Hnor how ever long ago it was now, the one mentality we tried to push is that it really doesn't matter if we won or lost because the story would continue on regardless. Regardless of if we had the tile or if we were nomads or if we were vassals of someone. We knew it was a losing battle to begin with. Nev had no allies and it wasn't filled with PVPers. There were very few of us who cared for it, in reality. So we had the resources and gear, just not the body count. But in those situations you have to push the narrative of: Win or Lose, it's just another chapter of the overall story. A page in a characters life where they can look back on and go "Remember when Nevaehlen got ransacked by High Elves?"

 

But then you get onto the overly complex thing of people not separating OOC from IC. Now, when Nev fell, we initially went to Norland as refugees. Some splintered off, but a core group went there. We set up camp and vibed there for a little bit. But I had burnt out from the war, and subsequently shelved the character. Nev went on and now, it has resettled in ruins and rebuilt itself. Rather than get myself irritated OOCly with things that went on, the loss and what not, I was much happier to separate from that situation entirely and if that meant shelving a character to do so, then so be it.

 

I think people forget that things can reform and rebuild, or relocate and adapt. It isn't always a farewell forever. Nations rise and fall time and time again, some more consistent than others but they do. (RIP Caliphate, you were a good one.)

 

Of course these are just my opinions. We can all get a little too invested sometimes, and sometimes you just need to go and touch some grass.

 

I think the second part of this strikes the core of the problem. People are too attached to their projects on LOTC. I get it; we are putting hundreds if not thousands of hours into our nations, families, etc., and it is painful to watch them disappear. But a project coming to an end is not a failure; it's a chance to tell a new story. Players view conflict that harms their projects as a personal OOC attack, but that isn't always true, and that mindset degrades not only your enjoyment on the server but everyone around you as well.

Being upset or angry when your project is attacked is a normal human response. It's idiotic for someone to say, "Just don't get mad". What isn't normal is letting that anger take over and influence how you treat people OOCly and bleed into your roleplay. Your emotions may be valid, but acting on them isn't. As a server, we need to work on pushing back against the OOC toxicity and OOC-RP bleed by calling people out when they do it.

 

Some advice for everyone involved in this conflict: next time you get angry or upset, step away from the keyboard and clear your mind so those emotions don't degrade your roleplay.

 

[Pegleg_Bob 1107]

Listen when I start getting angry at people for Minecraft RP; I know it's time to take some time off and touch some grass. This is what I'm doing right now. The only real issue I've seen, though, during this war has been people on both sides trying to get the other side's people banned. When a ban war starts, that's when ooc toxicity starts in full strength.

[Lirinya 4021]

8 minutes ago, Kholibrii said:

It's idiotic for someone to say, "Just don't get mad".

A contribution to the problem could be said to be these types of people. People who dimish others time and efforts. There needs to be clear understanding on both sides.

 

One side learning to accept that loss is normal, feeling angry is normal, but also moving on is normal. Change is good.

 

The other side needs to learn to not shit on other peoples efforts and hard work, whether that be a nation or a family legacy that has lasted decades IRP. It's O K  for someone to be attached something. We see plenty of families recycling the same leaders for example, because people either can't, or don't want to let go.

 

Then we can all be friends.

[Werew0lf 24179]

I hope we can all get along.

 

•ᴗ•

[Animael 1500]

Copy that chief. Will try to improve my own attitude with the points made in this post o7

[sam33497 7356]

2 hours ago, tilly said:

I think it is natural to care about the things you’ve spent hours upon hours cultivating, only to have someone randomly (don't care if it’s an orc, a regular bandit, or someone on an opposing side of a war) come up and kill you or war your nation for total destruction, then tell you to touch grass afterward when you’re upset. 

At the end of the day if what you've cultivated on LOTC is a nation, you need to understand that nations on LOTC are part of a geopolitical simulation.

 

People like to claim that all wars are OOC - obviously, most wars and especially these big ones won't start without OOC motivation, but wars that don't work in the geopolitical (roleplay) sense do not occur.

 

Nations are not meant to be immortal. They are meant to live and die - what sense would it make if they just stayed there forever without changing forms? You can't erase RP legacy because these things already occured IRP. Your work will never disappear. If your nation-players want to continue playing with each other and carrying their culture on, there is absolutely nothing that can stop them barring permanent bans.

 

It really hurts to lose a war, because you can palpably feel the difference in whether your desires and future plans can come to fruition or not. But this is the contract you sign entering the geopolitical simulation. If you would like to quietly community build and not participate, you can- just vassalize. I'm sure even if you refuse to attend war, most people would appreciate the activity in their nation.

 

I also feel that people who react extremely to war are more likely to erode the value of RP within a war setting as well. War is not a purely OOC device, even if it occurs widely on an OOC level - there is a lot of RP to it, and a lot of its outcomes are decided by RP, as is especially evident in this war (if certain rp scenarios had gone another way, things would be massively different). If you genuinely try to give all parties in the war good roleplay about it, I can almost guarantee you your sandcastle will not get knocked down. No one on the Holy League side is going to ruin their own RP to destroy your nation just because a few old enemies want you to die. But the 'us or them' mindset in war and an inability to keep applying RP standards even when the OOC involvement and pressure is high is likely what leads to this impression rather than the pure attitudes of the aggressors themselves.

[Pancho 4197]

4 hours ago, MailC3p said:

In turn, when they joined Haense’s side in the war, Haelun’or leadership saw the chance and jumped straight into the conflict on the other side. 

I fundamentally disagree with your point. Haelun’or got raided twice by the church when I was NL and you know this Mail. Hell, Haense sent soldiers to help us one time. Say what you want, I feel the RP behind joining was shaky at best. 
 

Edit: I forgot about this originally since I’m typing this right before work. Haense also orchestrated the peace talks between Cnor and Hnor that allowed Hnor to stay an independent nation without a warclaim. Quite literally modern Haelun’or owes its existence to Haense and that was just forgot about in roleplay. Thank you.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

11 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I fundamentally disagree with your point. Haelun’or got raided twice by the church when I was NL and you know this Mail. Hell, Haense sent soldiers to help us one time. Say what you want, I feel the RP behind joining was shaky at best. 
 

Edit: I forgot about this originally since I’m typing this right before work. Haense also orchestrated the peace talks between Cnor and Hnor that allowed Hnor to stay an independent nation without a warclaim. Quite literally modern Haelun’or owes its existence to Haense and that was just forgot about in roleplay. Thank you.

entire hnor motivation seems to be "kill cnor" which then evolved into "uphold the treaties" - but ive honestly seen worse done for less justification so doesn't feel like it matters 

[Pancho 4197]

3 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

entire hnor motivation seems to be "kill cnor" which then evolved into "uphold the treaties" - but ive honestly seen worse done for less justification so doesn't feel like it matters 

Considering one of our longest standing treaties was with Balian before the war, I wouldn’t say shit about treaties.

[argonian 14254]

I don't think there's been an actually toxic war in years.

 

Modern LOTC wars are 10% toxicity and 90% people spamming Discord pings and forum threads talking about the supposed toxicity.

 

I'm sure some of you are genuine, but I know for a fact some of the players who always rush to decry toxicity (while never citing examples) use it as a way to safely smear their enemies while acting like they just care about player protection and having fun. It's also often done in the hopes of having the staff intervene to pause or cancel the conflict - the sudden chatter about it now is probably because there's word going around on Discord about the Covenant collapsing.

 

I don't think the NLs involved are mercenary enough to try and get the conflict called off "due to toxicity" btw, but I'm sure it's a motivator for people to suddenly (coincidentally) have meltdowns now after weeks of war and multiple days since the last warclaim.