Happy Pride Month!

[Fluffy Horror 496]

@RamonYeah, the difference is I'm not pretending to be concerned about the loreee or potential rules being exploited in obscure strawman situations or mods banning people they don't likeee. I'm not hiding behind a veneer of false concern to attempt to legitimize my arguments.

 

I am LGBTQIA+, and I am in agreement with this ruling because of it. That's never been in dispute.

 

If you don't agree with this rule because you disagree with LGBTQIA+ people in real life, just say that! Don't make up strawmans! Don't grasp at straws! Say the quiet part out loud!

 

Nah, you do not get to use "but some LGBTQIA+ people agree with me!" when your whole argument is based on your personal bias against them. They aren't agreeing with you.

[trinn 5128]

it will be okay everybody. we are all in this together. you can even hold my hand if it gets too scary?

[ClassyDryad 2367]

I have said it elsewhere but my general thoughts on it:

While I am sympathetic towards other queer people (or straight people I guess) who like to roleplay dealing with bigotry, not every queer person is comfortable with even good faith representations of this. I think it's ultimately better to air on the protection of the more vulnerable in this case, as we do for things like gore rp. Ideally if the community grows beyond its current state we could transition to something which needs OOC consent and cooperation on it like gore rp but in this day and age a blanket hit is better.

The second point, people against the change on the basis of it limiting their characters from being bigots seem to generally be arguing so from the position of precedent or limiting their own rp, not because it limits the rp situations they can give to others. Providing a good rp encounter for others is the basis for all good villainy rp and is the only argument I would find acceptable on that side of things.

Also I do not think you are a bigot for disagreeing with me on either of these points, or if I think your opinions are bad. If you are a bigot you probably know that already.

[Navigator 4260]

6 minutes ago, TRINN said:

it will be okay everybody. we are all in this together. you can even hold my hand if it gets too scary?

wait..................... really.................?

[Hiccup392 724]

10 hours ago, TaraJess said:

 

I am not a lore writer, so people do feel free to come at me on this. im dividing this up into two parts

 

first, i think staff should 100% figure out this question in particular, it was a big point brought up in the vc. as someone who fully supports this new rule change, I am also curious as to how this would work. will people be banned for telling a player, 'no you cannot be heir or play a queer character because we need the bloodline to continue'? that is a question that needs to be answered. my next comment is an idea im gonna throw out that could possibly remedy that issue.

 

again, hi, not a lore writer, just throwing an idea out there. in the sims 4 they added an option to 'make a science baby'. this option basically takes the genes from both parents (despite their gender) and makes a baby with both genes. the baby then magically appears at the sims house and is biologically the child of both sims. AGAIN IM NOT A LORE WRITER IM SORRY, could that one day be an option that could solve this issues that the question above asks? Genetically, the child carries on the bloodline, and nobody has to get shot for telling someone 'no you cannot play a queer character AND be an heir'

 

god i hope this comment does not make me sound insane.

this has actually been a thing people have done forever, as far as I know! It's simple and doesn't kill anybody in the process and is backed by lore somewhere I believe. It's not the end of the world to continue a bloodline in this way because this is, at the end of the day, a FANTASY based roleplay server.

[Lirinya 4021]

Everyone against this change because it goes against your irl religion and beliefs are actually insane. 

 

You don't play the server as you but as your characters. Real world racisms, prejudice and what not should never have a reason to translate into a fantasy world.

 

Be racist to a kha, threaten to skin them and make them into a rug.

Don't shit on your neighbour because of the color of his skin or because he's gay.

 

Get a grip.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

Sorry guys I just got off the phone with ST, the stork is actually an age of dragons event character who was murdered by a paladin drive-by on the kings road at 4am. You can’t have stork lore anymore xan ate the stork shard. 

[Frostdrop1 1843]

Big win! for the server.

On the topic of homophobic roleplay I HAVE in fact seen such roleplay done tastefully; therein, that the homophobic character became friends with someone who was gay and ultimately had to undertake the arc of becoming more accepting and comfortable with this topic. It was actually very sweet and became a tale of overcoming difference for connection. HOWEVER: most players on LOTC simply DO NOT have the maturity or foresight to approach this topic well. As a result, I agree it should be banned. It doesn't matter how well you think you can roleplay - most people simply cannot handle this topic effectively and with intent for narrative over funny gags for one-off lines. 

On the topic of sexism, I think it's ultimately more than a little disappointing the staff have utterly failed with a rollout along with the rest. It just goes to show the blatant normalisation of this topic in our everyday lives, so much so that it was seen as acceptable treat these topics differently. Just because more people fall into one or the other is not an excuse to treat it differently. Many things on the server will need to shift for the new rule adjustment alone; many things - if not more - will need to shift for an adjustment to sexism. Are there more nuances to this? Yes. If we want cultures with more heavily defined roles, with expectations of males and females separately, then sexism will ALWAYS be a factor. Is there a place for this this in minecraft fantasy roleplay? Yes. 

Should this be institutionalised, just like issues with homophobia? No.

As far as I see sexism should solely be limited in flavourful cultural capital at absolute MOST: fashion, generally expected hobbies etc... because this adds an element of something dynamic. Nothing more. This doesn't truly need to become a CRP discussion where we give leniancy to people who want to have a gotcha moment about something menial about my dude v your woman, nor does it need to become about preserving the history of something based in out-dated ideas. It's really is not that hard to limit it to something tasteful especially with how long this has taken. The history this server has with sexism is atrocious and its something all to easy to let leak into roleplay based on pre-concieved notions in real life. We should NOT be aiming to reinforce these real-life notions or expect people to deal with the same stuff that is mentally draining and all too impactful for many of us in ways we're sometimes barely even aware of. To those who think it is acceptable, I would strongly ask you to reflect on why it should be treated with any greater curtesy than other forms of discrimination when we're talking about a game.

[Crevel 7557]

Some LGBT People: "Stop bringing your religion into the server, if you have to do that... it's a big problem."

Very Same People: *Playing characters that are self-inserts in regard to their sexuality and/or gender identity*

 

If you're going to tell other people to not play themselves, stop playing gay characters as a gay person, trans characters as a trans person, or whatever else. The double standards are unreal. People in general need to stop playing self-inserts. It doesn't matter who or what you are and identify with. You cannot in an intellectual honest way argue that your self-insert is better because it's part of your personal identity when so and so religion is also the part of the personal identity of religious players. You also can't argue that it's a case of bigotry because the amount of bigotry that some LGBT people have against religious people and/or "cishet" people in general is as distasteful as the nonsensical bigotry that some religious people have.

 

Either play your self-inserts without attacking other self-inserts or stop playing your own self-inserts. Play an orc or something.

[MaplTree 129]

7 minutes ago, Crevel said:

Some LGBT People: "Stop bringing your religion into the server, if you have to do that... it's a big problem."

Very Same People: *Playing characters that are self-inserts in regard to their sexuality and/or gender identity*

 

If you're going to tell other people to not play themselves, stop playing gay characters as a gay person, trans characters as a trans person, or whatever else. The double standards are unreal. People in general need to stop playing self-inserts. It doesn't matter who or what you are and identify with. You cannot in an intellectual honest way argue that your self-insert is better because it's part of your personal identity when so and so religion is also the part of the personal identity of religious players. You also can't argue that it's a case of bigotry because the amount of bigotry that some LGBT people have against religious people and/or "cishet" people in general is distasteful.

 

Either play your self-inserts without attacking other self-inserts or stop playing your own self-inserts. Play an orc or something.

Maybe most religious people shouldn't be hostile to the LGBTQ community and the LGBTQ community won't have such negative perceptions of them? There was someone in this thread going "I dont want to accept gay people IRP because I don't accept them IRL" and you want us to like yall? Insane

[Ramon 5186]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Horror said:

@Ramonyou, you... Literally just proved my point. You just said it's lame to assume that everyone who is raising concerns is acting in bad faith, that I can't assume everyone complaining is doing so because of real world prejudices... And then you bring up that you're a Christian and against LGBTQIA+ people in real life and don't want to be forced to roleplay something that you believe is morally wrong, thus proving that all of you own arguments are, indeed, in bad faith.

 

You cannot argue that you're against this for roleplay reasons when the reality is you're against it IRL.

 

Once again, the most vocal detractors turn out to just be defending their personal biases.

I don't rly grasp why you describe this as bad faith when nothing that has been said was said with either misleading or malicious intent. I can be against something for roleplay concerns (none of which you actually seem to have bothered to address) while simultaneously having OOC reservations because of my religious beliefs as well. The reply ultimately didn't even specify that I thought same-sex unions should have no representation on the server at all, just that I questioned the use of something that practically forces sacramental same-sex marriage through when secular civil unions already brought the exact same equality without forcing irp religions to completely rewrite their theology, effectively satisfying both sides of the issue, because both could live and let live this way.

I also never said that you can't assume everyone that is complaining is doing so because of real world concerns, just that you shouldn't assume it all comes from some kind of desire to just be hateful for the sake of being hateful and wishing to cause others harm, and preserve a spot for such behaviour. The topic is a lot more nuanced than that. I personally wldn't classify wishing to act in accordance with the spirit of obedience to the laws of God as being hateful, in any case. Not how that works. And I'd imagine someone who would've actually grasped the things said at his catechism would've understood this !! 

even if my reasoning had solely been rooted in my OOC religious beliefs (which its not, my main argument was that this rule change just doesn't really work from a roleplay perspective, which I think I outlined well enough in my previous reply to you), I think it's kind of hypocritical to accuse people like me of bringing real-life identity onto the server and then calling this bad faith when, in a way, that's exactly what is happening on your end as well. IMO this whole idea that one idea needs to completely crush the other is just silly. if fairness and inclusivity were the real goals here then the only reasonable solution would be to strike a balance (one that was already clearly struck during Caius I lol) that acknowledges both perspectives without forcing either to conform to the other entirely and just vibe.

I guess it's of little use to keep arguing at this point, though. 

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

10 minutes ago, Crevel said:

Some LGBT People: "Stop bringing your religion into the server, if you have to do that... it's a big problem."

Very Same People: *Playing characters that are self-inserts in regard to their sexuality and/or gender identity*

 

If you're going to tell other people to not play themselves, stop playing gay characters as a gay person, trans characters as a trans person, or whatever else. The double standards are unreal. People in general need to stop playing self-inserts. It doesn't matter who or what you are and identify with. You cannot in an intellectual honest way argue that your self-insert is better because it's part of your personal identity when so and so religion is also the part of the personal identity of religious players. You also can't argue that it's a case of bigotry because the amount of bigotry that some LGBT people have against religious people and/or "cishet" people in general is as distasteful as the nonsensical bigotry that some religious people have.

 

Either play your self-inserts without attacking other self-inserts or stop playing your own self-inserts. Play an orc or something.

Take the shovel from bro tell him to stop digging

[Jentos 9422]

12 minutes ago, Crevel said:

Some LGBT People: "Stop bringing your religion into the server, if you have to do that... it's a big problem."

Very Same People: *Playing characters that are self-inserts in regard to their sexuality and/or gender identity*

 

If you're going to tell other people to not play themselves, stop playing gay characters as a gay person, trans characters as a trans person, or whatever else. The double standards are unreal. People in general need to stop playing self-inserts. It doesn't matter who or what you are and identify with. You cannot in an intellectual honest way argue that your self-insert is better because it's part of your personal identity when so and so religion is also the part of the personal identity of religious players. You also can't argue that it's a case of bigotry because the amount of bigotry that some LGBT people have against religious people and/or "cishet" people in general is as distasteful as the nonsensical bigotry that some religious people have.

 

Either play your self-inserts without attacking other self-inserts or stop playing your own self-inserts. Play an orc or something.

 

religion is not a license to hate crevel. we can have both people who play religious characters and gay characters without either being bigoted  : ) 

 

that said i do feel like there should be some space for disparity, i've seen some forms of homophobia be very well plaid out - albeit the issue being that many people just want any reason to conduct their own ooc hate unto an irp platform and thats not very conducive.

[LobsterLilly 623]

6 minutes ago, Crevel said:

Some LGBT People: "Stop bringing your religion into the server, if you have to do that... it's a big problem."

Very Same People: *Playing characters that are self-inserts in regard to their sexuality and/or gender identity*

 

If you're going to tell other people to not play themselves, stop playing gay characters as a gay person, trans characters as a trans person, or whatever else. The double standards are unreal. People in general need to stop playing self-inserts. It doesn't matter who or what you are and identify with. You cannot in an intellectual honest way argue that your self-insert is better because it's part of your personal identity when so and so religion is also the part of the personal identity of religious players. You also can't argue that it's a case of bigotry because the amount of bigotry that some LGBT people have against religious people and/or "cishet" people in general is as distasteful as the nonsensical bigotry that some religious people have.

 

Either play your self-inserts without attacking other self-inserts or stop playing your own self-inserts. Play an orc or something.

 Aren't you just a ray of sunshine. 

[Crevel 7557]

11 minutes ago, MaplTree said:

Maybe most religious people shouldn't be hostile to the LGBTQ community and the LGBTQ community won't have such negative perceptions of them? There was someone in this thread going "I dont want to accept gay people IRP because I don't accept them IRL" and you want us to like yall? Insane

 

I don't consider myself religious or Christian. I just think it's silly that people are making it out to be a one-sided issue when it's not. The people who are legitimately being hostile and discriminatory are almost always banned regardless of what they believe. Some LGBT people have their reasons for disliking religious people while some religious people have their reasons for disliking LGBT people.

 

9 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Take the shovel from bro tell him to stop digging

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Game_About_Digging_a_Hole

 

7 minutes ago, Jentos said:

religion is not a license to hate crevel. we can have both people who play religious characters and gay characters without either being bigoted  : ) 

 

Ideally, nobody should be taking anything to the extremes in roleplay or out of character. It happens either way though whether the person is religious or not. People have had the worst crash outs over things on LotC because they think something is a personal attack at them when it's just roleplay being roleplay. Some people take roleplay too seriously, and it happens the more that someone puts themselves into a character.

 

Quote

 Aren't you just a ray of sunshine.