__WaterFox__

This isn't a thread about the problems with holy magic. This is a thread about how it isn't a bad thing and highlighting a few ways to make rp more interesting rather than just nerf'ing the magic. The fact that you made this statement shows how little you know. Most of the medical rp I see on the server should result in the patient dying either from the wound being something that should have just killed you in minutes or from the actual 'healing' resulting in their death. People are great at applying bandages though! Name me three bad holy healers. Name me three occasions where someone did something stupid while voicing "I'll just be healed". And if you see your enemy walking around the streets with his arm back? I don't see how this is the magic's problem, sounds like you will just have to deal with the consequences. I do not see why magic needs to be nerf'ed because of poor rp, you could literally use this same argument for the healing aspect of alchemy. Uhm... Contradictions where? I do not see how my pointing out that people are so pitifully ignorant on thing medical that it is unfair to make them learn things that would require a legitimate education and also saying that it would be more interesting rp if done in sessions. Why are we trying to 'fix' a magic when it is people who don't like rp'ing consequences that are the problem? You're right, it is about enforceable as making people not deal with an injury, but atleast my idea gives way for more dynamic rp. Five minute click fest. Then another five minutes of hacking everyone hands off. Then! A few days worth of multiple clerics, paladins, or ascended trying to regrow these limbs. You're right, it does sound like amazing rp! I agree that things need to be clarified, but I do not think a nerf is needed I really do not think you understand what fixing a problem is. You know that consequences entail such right? Just because someone figures out a way around something doesn't it mean it is just avoiding consequences, bs'ing and saying the monks fixed it is avoiding consequences or even just logging out before it happens. I do not think healing healing magic by it's very definition has combat applications. Also, there are red lines. Perhaps take a look at all the redlines within lore and guides.

Honestly what I'm going for. I don't want magic to be nerf'ed unless it is op and I definitely do not like this core magic. We do have a lot of stuff in existing lore that can be fleshed out though. Not too sure what you mean by system though.

Dude, I would rather be punched by a normal fist than an iron fist. It's just harder and that person swings the damn thing at you instead of the usual wind up then it's going to be like getting hit with a bat.

Still, the argument you're using would mean the runed limbs are just avoiding consequences. I'll use another example then, with the same rp (finding someone+using whatever heal thingy they bear) is a regeneration potion avoiding consequences? Yes, you do have to kill someone for it, but you also have to find a holy mage to heal you for the sessions I recommended.

I keep seeing people say that it's letting them shrugging off the consequences. Would you use the same argument if someone replaced their hand with a runed limb that is arguably more useful than a normal hand? Or is that a solution. Also, I think you missed the point about people ******* over people just because they can. Not everything is the vicitim's fault

And if the raiders just don't give a ****? Unfair situations do exist.

So! A town gets raided by the likes of Oren. The raiders decide they are going to cut off everyone's right hand just because they can. Is it stupid that a populace that gets ganked will suddenly get ganked by a group that will always have the larger number by sheer virtue of people preferring to start off with human characters?

Healing magic isn’t a bad thing in of itself to have in fantasy. Why? It’s fantasy you come for fantasy and not real world practices, even the more mundane healing has some sort of spin in fantasy that makes the ordinary become extraordinary. Not to mention most people don’t know their tibia from your fibula much less the nuances of medical practice, so ‘magic’ is often a good way to avoid accidentally becoming a doctor and still have some good writing to explain how injuries are dealt with. Now, onto the arguments lotc is presenting for the most part: healing magic takes away consequences and provides bad roleplay. For the most part I genuinely floored that these two arguments are being made when the more famous healers on the server are either a.) people actually working in the medical field writing as their knowledge allows in terms of magic or b.) people who don’t understand jack about anatomy but make it up for by making their magic have flair. I honestly do not know where the “bad rp” part comes in until you look at the person being healed and not the magic or magic users themselves, which is something all rp healers discuss in ooc. So you can rest well knowing that we too bemoan about how people come to us after making some stupid decision, demanded to be healed, and then go away without so much as a thank you. Not our fault other people refuse to acknowledge the consequences of their actions. However, I do think healing magic could be changed so it provides rp, but not by nerfing it all. I actually believe that the cap for what can be healed (regenerating limbs, restoring blindness, or injuries that cannot all be healed at once by a tier 5) needs to be removed and replaced with the stipulation that the injury can be healed in three-five sessions depending on the amount that needs to be healed AND all the sessions need to be conducted with the same healer. This means that that person who desires to be healed must form a relationship with the healer, which in my mind would be far more interesting in terms of handling egregious wounds and healing rp in general. As for the lesser injuries, I actually enjoy the idea of the person being healed having to pray with the healer and/or not deny aenguls or the specific aengul of the healer. So… Don’t nerf healing magic, actually fix the way it’s done so more rp is created and not less.

Bad example. Why would you heal a fatal wound? It's called fatal for a reason. A better example would be third degree burns, which are exceptionally difficult to treat even in modern times due to trying to keep the patient stable in such a precarious state. Magic means that could be healed with significantly less risk of the patient dying from what would surely be a fatal injury on LoTC. We could also go with dangerously gangrenous wounds, magic could clear that up whereas natural means could only affect it if the reagents were enhanced by a druid. How is this a problem with lore? You do know what power gaming is right? It is an offense that can be reported. Seems like this is no more easily regulated than people magically getting swords or armor without receiving it irp. Again? How is this a problem with how healing magic functions. This is just bad roleplay. Powergaming even. Given the amount of wood elven players who outright refuse to be healed by magic? Given how Xionist think the aenguls are just slavers? This idea seems like it would actually encourage more dynamic routes in roleplay. People are trigger happy to dismember because it is so hard to heal, not because it is so easy to heal. Most guards use this for serious offenders since it does require a lot of work to replace or heal. That is kinda the point. All the consequences fall on the caster, not the patient. Alchemy? Exact opposite! So you have two differnt medical styles ? I'm not actually sure how you were trying to refute this point. As for evocation just being a combat magic? Only for uncreative minds. A fire evocationist could use it to very precisely temper a blade, cook a meal, or just make pretty sparks that amuse children. I think that right there also proves that flames don't just bugger off to the void, but can have an impact on the material world. 1.) No magic can regenerate limbs, only alchemy can 2.) People who want to do twisted **** irp are going to do twisted **** irp regardless of how healing works. We will just get a bunch of amputees and mutilated people. 3.) People who ignore consequences will ignore ultra-harsh consequences. They don't care. 4.) Who cares about getting rid of ulta-harsh consequences?... It may end up being **** rp, but it is still rp. Magic healing is just a way for people to deal with that rp after the fact. You are misconstruing the argument here, outright changing words to fit your narrative. The point Astartes was trying to make is that some people do play villainous character who will disfigure your char in horrible ways that dramatically affect your rp and some people do not enjoy having their rp mangled for the sake of someone else. As for your example, no not gruesome at all, but having all your fingers cut off and sewn in different places is. When someone has it out for you, it can often be a case of either don't log in or get fucked. Not everything is the victim's fault. As someone who rp's with clerics and various holy orders? I see this on a regular basis. With clerics, if they aren't revived in time by another cleric, it is a pk. I promise you, you're not thinking this through! There are consequences and then there is **** that just fucks up your roleplay. For the sake of argument, please assume we mean the **** that just totally fucks up someone's ability to roleplay. Last time I address this! There are consequences, consequences that mean your character may not be able to fight or dance or hear music. Then there are the consequences that leaves your character a babbling mess, a blind,mute, and deaf mess with no hands, or leaves them so psychologically fucked (along with yourself) that you just don't want to rp the character. Read deeper then. If magic works like that, where you take the injury onto yourself and have no special regeneration powers, then there is no reason to use the magic in the first place. You might as well use alchemy. Remember that this is not a discussion to remove magic btw, but to improve it. You do understand that healing magic is meant to be deus ex machina? If you can't fix that **** with alchemy then you're going to need a miracle. Now before you bring up that point again, healing magic is not necromancy and is a magic (which means it takes time to cast) so injuries that would you kill you in seconds or minutes are just going to kill you.

I did read and most of your points were about how the patient could perform poor roleplay by logging out or ignoring any consequences. I saw nothing about how the magic ITSELF could be abused, is in someway overpowered, or gaps in lore that would allow for something stupid or absurd like attaching limbs to someone of a different race of said limb. It is one thing if you criticize lore, it is another if you talk about how people abuse lore in such a way that they can be reported for power gaming.

@ChonGojDragonski, I'm not going to quote all your responses, but it looks like over half of them had to deal with poor rp'ers doing poor rp rather than an inherent flaw in the magic.

I have a paladin and a cleric and both use alchemy with their magic, why? Because I understand that most wounds would kill a person if not dealt with immediately and that some things are not worth wasting the mana on. I'll give passes to people who make most of the healing emote to describing the way the magic looks or is behaving in those situations since I know not everyone has any medical knowledge to speak of, but if it has neither of these elements than it is just a bad rp'er. As for only healing impure wounds? Name more than three wounds that actually leave behind dark magic to be combated against, curses don't count.

Ascended did that and in all honesty? Why bother even using that magic if you don't have the ascended's regen properties.

I disagree with this, but I do think more information needs to be handed out since mundane methods are necessary in some situations. I've seen quite a few people get so excited about their spell that they don't actually try to stabilize the patient before beginning, which is a culture I think we need to introduce rather than make as a rule.

I disagree with most everything you wrote in your post. Honestly, I thought that combat healing was addressed, but it seems people just cannot help themselves so perhaps removing the entire idea of healing in active combat can be a thing. As you can see I support the idea of some form of 'counter healing' like you suggested, but I do not think it should be harmful. In my mind healing magic should be a grand act that accomplishes what mundane healing could not fix such as missing limbs, third degree burns, or even blindness along with taint inflicted wounds. No nerf's please, just make it function differently than the way that allows for heal bots to occur.

Now, as someone who has been doing medical rp since I've been on the server, and while I do whine about how people just throw magic at a wound I disagree with nerfing healing magic again. I think magic should be used when natural means can no longer be helpful, BUT I do think things need to change to make the rp more interesting. The magic could be altered so that magical regeneration of a wound still causes exhaustion to the patient, the magic acts more like a patch that can be removed or dissolved when it comes into contact with other magics in a short period of time, or even the regenerated area takes a completely unnatural appearance. Those are just my ideas, I might flesh them out a little more later. Edit: It was suggested in the cleric chat that healing could be done in sessions, but the cap for ability to heal is removed. Ex. Someone loses an arm, the arm can be regrown, but only sections at a time that would drain a tier 5. As for keeping people from having multiple clerics regrow their arm at one time? Could continue on with that patch idea and say that once a cleric has started healing that spot, another's magic will end up reversing what was healed.

"What spiteful men... running into the grove and just slaughtering people. Did they do it for fun? To feel powerful?"Zatanaes sighed and shook her head,"Now they put a bounty for the sake of murder"

This only seems like it could help

"Only good things will be spoken if we fall in line with all of their demands... But really, I thought clerics had a rather large presence in Caras Elder" Zaza remarked with a haggard expression

An older and rather haggard looking snow elf smiles as she adds phrases from the book to the mess of symbols she calls a journal

"I honestly do not know how they did not see this coming, even the guard say that the Dominion is for wood elves, but I do have to wonder what further course of action will be taken by non-aspectist" Zatanaes said while managing the bar.

Clerics have healing, purging, and enchanting. They are also locked to that magic whereas dark mages can dabble in many things.

A very simple notice was hung up in various cities and the Cloud Temple " I am looking for the instrument known as a guitar, six or nine string variety, but due to my lack of a messenger animal it would simply be best to contact me with a time and date to meet. On that note I am also looking for a messenger animal! - Zatanaes Iheiuh'onn"

I like this unique take to a more 'powerful' form since it does not actually seem to give you more power in the sense of making the paragon's words basically become law no matter how stupid it is or in the sense that this does not bolster the potency of spells cast. I do think that as an added measure, and despite the need for a CA, this should be taught more as an advanced technique taught to teachers who have proven they can maturely handle such a thing so they are not viewed as someone who has set apart or above the rest.

An old elvish woman busts out into a laughing fit she strong she breaks a rib. . . Again