[Discussion, Brainstorm]Lotc Combat Overhaul

[Telanir 6975]

Woah guys, enough time has passed that I literally don't give two shits about nexus combat relax I know there's a lot of hate to it. But let's be honest, we have a lot more important things to focus on right now.

PvP might come later when we have a month free with our heads clear and some time to brainstorm.

[Terafir 90]

Responses are in bold. Otherwise, I've been quietly advocating for these sorts of things for a while, and I'm glad to see someone thinking the same way I do. ^-^

 

Axes were equal to swords!

Nothing frustrates me more now than not being able to roll into battle with an axe and know that it will do the same amount of damage as a sword as well as have an increased chance of breaking both weapons and armor. They were a could DPS type of weapon and you usually wanted the people who used axes in the vanguard to really beat the **** out of the enemy before sending in your swordsmen, which leads into my next point.

 

I do like the take on axes being able to hurt armour more. Perhaps a system where axes would either 1)do less damage to the player but do hella damage on armour or 2)axes swing slower/hit less often while doing same amount of damage as swords with the benefit of increased damage against armour. (I wasn't around during Asulon, so correct me if I have misunderstood).

 

Swordsmen were badasses and anybody could do it

With the way the plugin worked, the higher level you had the higher chance of critical hits, blocking, and parrying you had increased [similar to axes except replacing blocking and parrying with weapon/armor breaking]. You could be the worst PvPer on the planet but still have a decent chance when you blocked and parried/counter attacked your assailant [all of this without that annoying right click for blocking as well]. Swordsmen were badass and would act as a tank. Knights served a real purpose as they could be fast attack tanks and even 5 people could take out 25 [as seen in some of the examples in the video].

 

I believe that some form of nexus combat with some professions to go along with it would be an excellent combat system. I did like the old nexus combat if not for the extreme lag sometimes. Otherwise, it felt much more tactical and cunning instead of running in with your buddies and clicking as fast as possible. I'm not sure whether I would prefer to right click and then left click to block and counter or to have it do so automatically. Again, learning when to right click was a skill. Beyond that, yes, any form of nexus combat needs a form of professions to go along with it.

 

Armor had weight

At first this was a little shaky because many of us were not used to it or flat out opposed to it plus Vaq made the armor all unrealistically heavy initially as well. This was not introduced initially with the other skills but once it was it changed the game for good. Now light armored guys had a purpose and this could also play in well now if people actually want to do horse cavalry with lighter horsemen and whatnot. After the playerbase got used to it we came to love the diverse sort of loadouts you could make and prepare yourself for battle.

 

I'll say it openly; I love the armour weight and restrictions it had. The only thing I wished for nexus combat was for it to register the armour weight when beginning to sprint faster, rather than sprinting for a half second before the plugin cut you down. Light armoured guys+good bows could mess up an attacking force so bad, it actually gave them a point to what they were doing.

 

ARCHERS. ******* ARCHERS.

This one gets me a little heated because right now archers have no use and archery can be so much fun when it is balanced. Archers used to be badass in Asulon. Leather armor gave them a buff and once the armor weight thing was reduced you couldn’t even fire a bow in armor heavier than chain. They dealt a lot of damage and it made it useful to have a good number of archers sitting in a tower that was defended by some swordsmen to fight off the incoming assault.

IF YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO A WORD OF WHAT I WRITE, PLEASE JUST LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ARCHERS

 

I agree to all the above, so I won't comment.

 

There was no such thing as a Bunker

Because of the way combat worked it was almost detrimental to sit in the same place too long. Especially when your impenetrable fortress could be infiltrated by any means of siege weaponry at any given time. Ankle biters and the like were Anthosian inventions once the plugin was gone and we realized now we were on equal standing. This is probably the second most important thing and if we don’t want to make a rule outlawing bunkers then at least do this to discourage it.

 

Partially this is from the plugin and mechanics of battle, part of this is from player mentality. I don't know how the 4.0 regions are going to affect this sort of thing, but yes, bunkers need to be removed somehow. And since this has been debated too many times, and I have no clear solution, I'll let this rest.

 

Gunpowder was a game changer and enhanced dynamism

The heading says it all. With a piece of TNT you could break through somebodies uber-1337 fortress of solitude and storm in with your elite team of swordsmen and sabotage a defense. It became a popular tactic and it is where most of the ‘squad tactics’ you see today on LoTC actually developed so that commanders could coordinate these sort of attacks. I’ve been a major advocate of bringing back canons and all that to increase dynamic roleplay and Techs I’m sure you guys could just make ‘canon parts’ and ‘gunpowder’ ridiculously expensive and make it it’s own profession so that you literally need a dedicated person to do it.

 

I think some sort of siege weapon plugin would be great. Again, how this will work without abuse is a mystery, but I like your idea of having parts be extremely hard to craft. Perhaps if you aren't a high enough profession, and you crafted some regular cannon parts and assembled them, then the cannon would just blow up in your face. That way, we keep with Telanir's "no crafting restrictions" while also making sure that dedication is rewarded.

 

Gold had Value! [Also bring back Diamond, damnit]

In the plugin mining and buying gold was useful and made it valuable to have. Gold weapons were, in Vaq's own description 'legendary' and were pretty hard to craft. Not everybody had these weapons or the diamond armor that you see featured in the videos. Every ore had a use and every item had a use. Please make this happen so that when I find gold I don't just say 'fk' and walk away from it.

 

Perhaps gold could simply do a lot of damage, but swing slowly and break extremely easily. Gold is ludicrously heavy and moderately soft in real life, so its conceivable it could be used by someone with a lot of strength for maybe two or three blows before it breaks. The weight would slow the swing but give it extra damage, and the softness would make it break after only a few hits. That's just my suggestion. *shrug*

 

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

Woah guys, enough time has passed that I literally don't give two shits about nexus combat relax I know there's a lot of hate to it. But let's be honest, we have a lot more important things to focus on right now.

PvP might come later when we have a month free with our heads clear and some time to brainstorm.

What's more important right now? 90% of the server is PvP, and I doubt that the mindset will change soon. I try to avoid it as much as possible but even I can't think of anything more important to improve.

[osumanduas 1442]

I'm agreeing with Pok on nexus. As for plugins as a whole they should give bonuses and additions to what they augment not limit or frustrate. I seem to recall the the golden hoes as embraced by the community for example. Because they only added and did not take away. enhance the vanilla version, don't limit it. 

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

I'm agreeing with Pok on nexus. As for plugins as a whole they should give bonuses and additions to what they augment not limit or frustrate. I seem to recall the the golden hoes as embraced by the community for example. Because they only added and did not take away. enhance the vanilla version, don't limit it.

Agreed, though I'm fine with minimal restrictions. Like, only miners can mine diamonds and gold, only Blacksmiths can make gear from them, etc. The things used in normal MC should never be touched.

[Tristanx7 142]

Woah guys, enough time has passed that I literally don't give two shits about nexus combat relax I know there's a lot of hate to it. But let's be honest, we have a lot more important things to focus on right now.

PvP might come later when we have a month free with our heads clear and some time to brainstorm.

 

I agree with Telanir here, 4.0 has a lot of problems with release and all. However, I was off and on during the plugins system, and I have to say it was awesome. Armor weight, although it was confusing at first, was really helpful. It adds RP to PvP combat through the fact that iron armor and leather armor were practically equal in their balancing system, with chain being the middle ground of speed and defense. Having various choices for combat was awesome as well, being able to use axes, unarmed, swords, or archery was extremely useful, especially because, like I mentioned earlier, brought PvP and RP closer together. Someone who wanted to be a master swordsman couldn't become a master archer due to the fact that the plugin required a large amount of dedication on behalf of the player to level up various things, it also meant that crafters wouldnt be as useful in pvp, but would be necessary for facilitating pvp. I strongly agree with Pok's original post, when TnT was removed as a possible item to craft it made me really sad, mainly because it was so nice to be able to blow up a wall using tnt. And while in this new plugin, TnT should be harder to craft (maybe siege weapons?), a tinkerer could construct various parts of a trebuchet, then put all of them together to construct a trebuchet kit, like a tent kit, then place it on the ground. The trebuchet would then take a certain amount of time to pitch, at which point a premade trebuchet would be placed in front of the player. The same could be done with cannons, catapults, battering rams (rams would apply a slowness debuff on whoever was carrying it, and then it would be placed at the gate that you wanted to bash down.) Bombs would work differently, a tinker would have to make bomb casings, fuses, powder, etc. to make a bomb, an iron block would be placed wherever the bomb item was placed down, and then the player would right click it with a flint and steel, igniting the fuse on the bomb, giving the player time to run away. This system would add a use for donkeys/mules, as a mount would be able to carry heavy siege equipment to the battlefield, rather than having a slow moving player.

 

Gold armor should still be better than diamond, due to the fact that it has the fewest uses. It balances itself out because you wouldnt be able to constantly use it in PVP due to its low durability.

[Telanir 6975]

Now that I'm actually at a computer with a keyboard I can focus on fleshing out my thoughts.

 

If you feel Nexus-Combat was terrible I sympathize with you, but that's combat. It was supposed to be a public early beta-test that went worse than expected so it never returned or got improved. Contrary I was surprised at the number of positive feedback I got on it as well, I suggest some people look back at the situation you'll find quite a few of those.

 

As for combat, the reason why PvP is so common and widespread right now is literally because we focused on it. Without getting into any finer details, where the Tech Team looks the community sways, we made no real big progress with roleplay essential tools for the players and therefore you reap what you sow.

 

We won't give any definitive answer on this, I love the idea of changing combat and making it more exciting as well as add a level of skill in there. As long as lag isn't too big of a problem and our Australian/European players don't mind too much. TNT is a nice touch as well as long as all the defensive needs to do is just hit the tnt block to remove it. Player places TNT, plugin begins to play fireworks and loud noises at the source for a few moments before detonation, any player can then tap the tnt to break it so the attackers will have to defend it. (sounds creative and dynamic enough, thoughts?)

 

Once 4.0 is out and we can see things from a broader perspective with a richer experience and professions endowed environment, we will put our brains together to see if we can whip up something creative for combat. How does that sound? :)

[spqrSancus 175]

Yes please, Pok. I agree with all reasons stated by yourself, and I don't believe I need to explain needlessly further.

[River 555]

Telanir, let me give you an example of how bad things are on LotC in terms of PvP. I logged on to see 5 flays, they litterally said something like *Preparing to kill __________* "5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go!" and didn't give the other player time to react, it was completly one sided, the other player yelled "WAIT" "STOP!" and they killed him, 5v1, no chance. Then I logged off because yet again, right infront of my eyes not even a minute after I logged on there was PvP, and as dirty handed as I litterally just explained it. Ofc, that had nothing to do with plugins, or anything on your end (because your excessive progress towards a more PvP based server with almost every plugin with the exception of the profession plugin based on making combat better, or more stylized.) This was the fault of server rules and a player base that has been developed by excessive PvP and change to PvP default. Part of it may have been the fringe and people being bored, but honestly, I wonder how many players have been shyed away due to this kind of playerbase, and how many more have fit into it.

 

I, someone who had been playing LotC since near the break of the server, most of my time as someone lowly like a blacksmith of farmer, some recruit in a guild and other lower positions, enjoying the smaller things in life and watching everything, miss what I had on Asulon and Aegis. Back then, we had diverse RP, in battles just as Pok said, people actually had to know how to RP in battles.

 

When setting up a volly of arrows players had to know the RP of shooting a bow or crossbow, we had actual rp for siege weaponry, we had the freedom to RP inside of a battle.

 

PvP was also a lot more flavorful, meta tanks in full armor could kill off anyone, with the restriction of not being able to move as fast and use a bow. Archers searved a purpose.

 

What I'm trying to say, is instead of making new ways of combat, you should instead turn to something that actually worked, and will make players happy. Sure there were a few things that were iffy, but you can obviously meet with your tech and GM staff to discuss those kinds of things, or have an open poll on the players opinion. But, PvP was deffinently better in Asulon, probably the best it's been in LotC. Of course players died fast because of the meta behind golden axes, but you either died because you were reckless, or the enemy had a huge tactical advantage on you, not because the plugin was broken. Because compared to another player with the same equipment as you, you were equal, unless you made a choice to progress your levels differently than the other player, which had an impact on your playstyle.

 

+1, because I miss Asulon combat, and it's 100x better than combat on the server today. I don't know how the Nexus-Combat was, and I'm not going to ask, or make any judgement, because you can never truly see the full potential, or effectiveness until you've actually tried it and witnessed it for a while, but honestly, instead of coming up with new ideas, take the olds idea, and Telanir, personal note to you, make plugins that encourage RP, not plugins that encourage PvP, and make PvP more colorful, because even PvPers say they miss RP.

 

P.S. Don't dare say "If you want RP stop pvping and just actually RP" because it isn't as simple as that, you'd have to convince the entire server to do that, and how do you do that? Several ways, but only one way I'll tell you, is add professions skills (I'm hoping the Nexus-Professions will due it enough justice, and it just might, but we've yet to see).

[River 555]

To and GM, Tech Team member, or anyone with power.

 

By the way, when something gets +32 in 4 hours, that's a green light to at least bring this subject matter up with your staff and administrators. This also isn't the first time this has been discussed in a forum post, talking about the current status of PvP. I don't know how long it will take, but after 4.0 comes out and you've gotten a little relax time, you should start brainstorming with the other GM's, Admins and make polls as to where combat should evolve from. You've already made huge advancements to combat magic pvp, and a good advancement (I don't know how great or bad because I've yet to test it out or see it in the large scheme of things) on professions, but you still haven't done anything to actual PvP besides the knockout plugin.

 

Speak with the staff, get their opinion, because repeatedly, PvP has been the #1 issue on the server, so address it, not only would a mechanical update to combat be very nice, but the rules regarding PvP should also be changed, because that's a the biggest no-no. When you do make a mechanical update to combat, make you you do it in such a way that encourages multiple kinds of RP, such as engineers, medics, archers, normal foot soldiers and Calvary. Making PvP as fun as possible seems to be your goal, so make it your goal, I understand you want some breathing time, but make sure this is on your agenda for the nearest future, and is high on your to-do list.

[cmack1028 549]

TNT is a nice touch as well as long as all the defensive needs to do is just hit the tnt block to remove it. Player places TNT, plugin begins to play fireworks and loud noises at the source for a few moments before detonation, any player can then tap the tnt to break it so the attackers will have to defend it. (sounds creative and dynamic enough, thoughts?)

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE YES

 

I need muh TNT back!

[Sneaky 189]

Actually do that Tel. 

 

But gold weapons where really OP and armor weight is a pain in MC.

[Telanir 6975]

To and GM, Tech Team member, or anyone with power.

By the way, when something gets +32 in 4 hours, that's a green light to at least bring this subject matter up with your staff and administrators.

Relax lol. We have plenty of time to contemplate whatever the hell we want or need to contemplate, of course combat cross our mind once in a while.

But rep literally means nothing. I'm not here for popularity but to see what's good. Make sense?

I'll speak with Pok about this. Read some of my actual posts over the years if you want to calm yourself about me not working towards roleplay.

Oh, I'm enjoying this vacation so far. :)

It is lovely, sadly I still have to code and pay attention to community problems. What a sad life.

(Grammar is meh, wrote this on a phone but you should get my general points)

[drfate786 1690]

-Snip-

…. also +1

 

I have a idea, add objectives that raiders have to capture or destroy whit catapults ((That fling REAL tnt, you can even ask the battle for Conwy Castle server for their famous catapult script.))  and bring the Asulon archers back, even make it so mages can fire REAL spells at enemies too like fireballs and shards of ice or even call down some lightning.

 

Along whit this, have the outskirts directly outside the wall have trench networks and traps to slow the enemy down.

 

This would make raids last much longer and have more RP.

 

Also, a siege/raid should last days whit the enemy needing a camp.

[River 555]

I have a idea, add objectives that raiders have to capture or destroy whit catapults ((That fling REAL tnt, you can even ask the battle for Conwy Castle server for their famous catapult script.))  and bring the Asulon archers back, even make it so mages can fire REAL spells at enemies too like fireballs and shards of ice or even call down some lightning.

 

Along whit this, have the outskirts directly outside the wall have trench networks and traps to slow the enemy down.

 

This would make raids last much longer and have more RP.

 

Also, a siege/raid should last days whit the enemy needing a camp.