Let's Talk; The Magic Plugin & Magic in General

[Sporadic 2843]

Gotta give mad respect to kalen for coming right out and relaying what all techs seem to agree on regarding magic plugins. It's gonna get him a lot of hate for a bit but in the end it's the fairest to keep the players informed on these decisions.

And I agree, current lore simply cannot be reconciled with plugin possibilities. Magic junkies like to think their lore is 'agreed' on by the wider playerbase, but true agreement comes from the almighty PvP default keeping mages in line. Magic plugin is a major game-changer that, for better or worse, will put massive pressure on the magic lore from the wider playerbase, and the lore people aren't gonna like it.

Alchemy plugin proved this extremely clearly. We ended up putting 3x the work in as we might have a 'vanilla' alchemy plugin (aka one that's mostly minecraft), then jistuma had to put half again that workload in to make the actual potions, and in the end he still needs to put up this disclaimer:

The MC representation of Alchemy has been made to work together with the lore as best as possible. Still, there are two types of playing alchemy in Lord of The Craft, fully through roleplay, or together with mechanics. You can still make potions in roleplay that have roleplay effect, they simply won't have a mechanical effect.

Lore enthusiasts simply don't WANT plugins. They want creative freedom, make-believe and to be unhindered by mechanical considerations. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the game this way, but it's just a waste of effort to rape the MC code into working for them.

Lore is simply an ethereal layer on top of the actual minecraft . It's an entirely new dimension, almost an entirely different game from 'Minecraft' LotC, made for experts by experts, and people have an interest in preserving this. The aegis mentality of keeping everything close to mechanic MC (we were far more rp-rpg in aegis) has been overturned and lore has been accumulating ever since. This particular wiki page displays it well

http://wiki.lordofthecraft.net/Creatures

I know from experience making plugins to fit with lore is a lot of effort that produces results that lack any kind of mechanical elegance; you end up feeling like a 2 cent prostitute. It's just not worth it.

[Charles_Grimlie 1072]

Really Tech team, really? It's like you're trying to set a fire. 

This **** is gonna go down like Villian Apps.

[oblivionsbane 714]

I was stoked about the magic plugin, and I was especially excited at seeing how on earth you made stuff for Cognitism. When it comes down to it though, this is okay. The magic plugin was direly demanded maps ago when mages who got womped in PvP were mad because they felt like they got the short end of the stick. Nowadays though there are much fewer people like that, and the ones that still exist are much more tolerant of it (even if begrudgingly so). Magic really is there to add RP, and I want to throw out an idea, but first... I just want to say thanks for all the work you and the other devs did, I can't imagine having to spend hours working on big projects like this only to get them 

 

The only thing I can really contribute to this conversation is I think, if you wanted, you could try for a non-combat magic plugin. Something small where Druids can make a tree grow by looking at a sapling and using a command, or a fire mage can look at the ground, type a command out, and make fire appear. It isn't anything that you could ever really use in the grand scheme of things that something else couldn't do, (bonemeal, flint & steel) but it would give mages some small way to represent their magic in the, "I can do something you can't," scheme of things. It isn't something that I would say is heavy or thought provoking on how to implement, it's just, "Here, have a cookie." "Thanks!" Basically, I think a plugin that gives mages some basic ability to enhance the RP they are doing visually could not only be a nice, thoughtful call-out to mages, but it could provide some really good feedback for plugins like it made in the future.

 

PS. I'm also saying let it go through worldguard where you can set a fire anyplace. That's why it'd be better than just carrying around flint and steel as a fire mage. Also a little line of text like, "____ creates a flickering flame!" would be nice too. You could even have it so necromancers can turn certain blocks into coal blocks or something so they don't need a GM to change stuff they drained.

[River 555]

Locked Magic

On the topic of locked magics, it's none of the players fault whether or not they can cast spells that they won't have access to unless they were part of a guild. I'll agree I think the guild locked magics have gotten out of hand in terms of the types of magics and numbers of those groups, but it's still none of the other players business.

At the moment no one on the server, who isn't a mage, complains that they can't cast magic, or can't cast the magic of a guild locked magic, that they would otherwise never have access to in the first place. So why are people complaining that if we get a mechanical magic plugin, everyone has to have access to every spell? Like I said, it's none of the players business whether or not they can cast a spell. The holders of said locked magic could give a rats ass because RP is RP.

 

Plugin Suggestions? Stahp.

And when it comes to the lore of magic, and people suggesting small, different plugins that do something with magic, there's no reason to suggest anything else when the devs have a completed product in front of them. A fireball staff? Why not implement a fire staff instead of rewarding the fire evocationist with an actual plugin they can use, if there's nothing wrong with it lore wise? (Sure the lore is meh to begin with, but for certain magics, within how magic works on lotc, aren't bad for the most part.)

As I've said, the lore is funky, and probably won't be changed. Unless the developers decide to make plans on implementing the magics that don't make sense lorewise after they've received a pass from the MAT on rewriting their lore to be balanced, comprehensive, and work along with how the rest of the lore on the server works. At least this way a large number of the current mages get something. The server has literally nothing to lose when it comes to giving the mages a much deserved plugin, if anything they can retract the magic plugin from the server and that would be the end of it. But for the players to never even see the plugin, or try it if it's completed?

Also, having a mechanical plugin does not limit the bounds of a magic simple because it's now represented in MC. A fire evocationist can still roleplay their magic exactly as they would have previously. The same goes any other magic, the magic should just be a representation of an existing magic sub-type. There isn't a one or the other choice, you can have both.

 

-=-

I want 501 and the devs to understand that I'm not trying to cause an issue, I'm just trying to see whether or not you've explored this option, whether or not what I'm thinking is flawed or not, because I'd rather not see the plugin go to waste when it doesn't have to go to waste. Am I wrong? Am I not understanding something? I'd like if someone informed me on if something I'm thinking is off because if scrapping a completed magic plugin can be avoided I'd rather take that option.

 

 

[DruinsBane 240]

The lore has always been a problem, it's a mess and there's no way of looking at it any differently, it's like an overexcited builder that keeps attaching extensions to a house and he doesn't know what he's gonna do with the extra space nor does he care that he's jeopardising the integrity of the building.

Lets start from the very start, I'll try to summarise the basic history "LOTC began in Agise but Iblees(a god who was mean) tore **** up, we moved to Auslon through some portals, don't ask about that it's a long story. A lot of things happened but don't worry, we than moved across the waters cause of drakes and Testificates, we went back in time than there were some minor islands and than we got to a place called Anthos, things were okay until we were attacked by the Lich King, we defeated him went through a magic portal moved to another land than moved again to another land, and than another and stayed on this one for awhile and than moved to another."

I'm confused and I went through most of that first hand, I'd have so many questions if I were new, and personally I know the answers and I'm just disappointed. If I can't summerise the lore in a good paragraph or two it's bad writing, people have confused good writing for a wall of a text, and that's the medium that our lore uses, and I haven't even started on magic or the politics or even the races.

When I was active I actively avoided magic users, and I was one. I was wondering what new magic or stupid interpretation of it I'd have to deal with it today.

My thoughts on the matter burn the ******* lore down, you need to restart if you want something cohesive and that could apply to a plugins structure, or even a well written story.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DruinsBane

[Anderssn 1115]

• Make a simplified version of the lore and less messy
  • The big messy lore for rp magic and magic overall
  • Simplified lore that stands only for the spells available in the plugin
  • A plugin that focuses on pvp and not emote after emote doesn't need too much lore or guidelines
• Only a couple, 2 or 3 spells per sub-magic in the plugin
  • The basic spells from each sub
• A staff that can be crafted(not gonna go into that)
  • When a staff is created it is bound the to magic user with a ritual (soulbind, only for staffs)
  • The player could then bind a certain amount of spells to the staff from the sub-types that the person is able to use
  • Switch/scroll between which spell is currently in use by left clicking the staff
  • Use magic with right click, certain spells could have more stages so you kinda charge it to make it stronger
• Accepted MA gives access to the magic plugin
  • Teacher and player makes a staff together
  • Teacher grants access to the sub magic once the player has been taught in RP

Locked magic;

• Only the leader/teacher of the guild have the power to teach another player the magic
• Allow a teacher to also remove magic from it's student

This is just how I think it could be done. Just don't focus too much on the lore when making a plugin. But for gods sake let us at least see it in action rather than throw in the trash can after a 100 years of promises.

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by Anderssn

[Mithradites 1168]

The reason LotC magic is jumbled is because it hasn't got a tangible theme that surrounds it. In all fantasy worlds magic compliments the societies and cultures that are present in the world. They make sense in the reality that's presented. The MAT in Asulon tried to pull together every bizarre magic type used in Aegis and have them fit in the world's lore, but many of them did not fit properly. Influences for magic came from vastly different sources like Warcraft for the shamans and druids (don't hate me 'cause I'm right, fwiends) while D&D was a source for the original clerical types (I think) to name a few examples. You also have a variety of sources for the varying powers--spirits, gods, space, gemstones infused with concentrated, soul-corrupting evil (shades are dumb), and even "lifeforce" or blood. It's too messy. It needs to go.

 

For an example, in the game "The Witcher" you have lots of beings who use magic, from sorceresses to monsters. They do plenty of different and similar things to one another, but you assume (since there's not much information on the specifics) that all the magic must come from the same place, probably. More accurately, you don't really think about it at all, because it's magic. The mystery of it made it seem like this huge, unfathomable force rather than the deus ex machina that is was. What we need is a simplified concept like that. LotC magic's biggest weakness is that it needs a lot of lore explained so people can actually RP teaching it and learning it. There's a lot of dreadful quibbles to remember, and it's frustrating/embarrassing to get told off by someone for forgetting a detail or two.

 

A while back I wanted to reform arcane magic to make it less sprawling and give specific, stone-set limits to what they were capable of. I say go for broke and kill the whole magic system. Decide on a theme and remake it from the ground up. Make one source for all magic and present a limited (but comprehensive) number of "schools" (Not archetypes! No different power sources!) that all give a buttload of interesting things to do. Make sure there's plenty of overlap in abilities, so no one school has a monopoly on fireballs or other such things. Set some very clear rules on what can and cannot be done. Once you have the limitations down-pat, let the players do the actual RP of it in whatever mystical way they wish, so long as it doesn't violate any of the standards and isn't too silly. Design all direct combat magic around the plugin. Poof. Non-intrusive magic plugin.

 

Then never add anything to it ever again.

 

Tl;dr Kill magic, start again. It's better to read it all, though.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Mithradites

[Gnomistry 1115]

A second comment: Everyone who says we should not have a Magic Plugin because "Lag" is false. There are ways to code efficiently to reduce lag caused by plugins. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by JavaWizard

[KarmaDelta 969]

Will you still give any future Antags magic? Along with Protag factions?

If so, don't, it still won't be fair to people who want a visual representation of their magic.

Edited October 31, 2015 by KarmaDelta

[argonian 14254]

Just gut the magic lore and redo it much simpler. You could get rid of half the magic types and streamline the rest. One of the biggest issues with LOTC's lore is that people make it so detailed and yet still unclear. Just make the lore simple. You don't have to get all scientific, it's freaking magic. Biggest issue with this though is that it would take forever, even if you had tons of people doing it.

[1 1393]

Just re implement the golden hoes, give access to them only if you have an accepted MA, remove the emerald cost and put a cool down on it.

[501warhead 1796]

Honestly, the magic plugin would just turn LOTC into a pvp server.

It is true that this would complicate things. . . a whole lump some of reforms in magic lore and the integration/coordination of this new system efficiently seems like a lot. The real issues behind this is the mechanics involved with magics in the face of PvP. Everyone seems like the issue is that "Hey, why can't we mages actually have the upper hand in these situations when it would be in our advantage?" when in reality the real issue is "Why aren't the PvP rules of a roleplay server guarding roleplay?" 

What I am suggesting is reforming the rules concerning PvP. I am sorry to any passionate, mouse slamming people who absolutely love PvP but this is a roleplay server. This isn't made for running up to people, emoting two times, and then suggesting PvP when it's not in your favor which seems to be the case quite often. PvP is ultimately proper in war claims and skirmishes but outside of that, it isn't. Focusing on that issue would resolve this one as well.

Magic would be more prominently RP'd with if the lore wasnt considered an over complicated mess where someone is given the legal rights to what many consider power gaming with no actual way of telling if they're not because the post doesn't actually describe them well enough for an average player to understand their limits.

 

-snip-

The audacity to blame it on the lore? Is that really what you said? Alright, it's not like I've coded two whole versions of the magic plugin by now and scrapped both not because I got bored of it or I didn't want players to have it (xd). I scrapped the plugins because there is no way the playerbase will ever enjoy it, and there is no way I could feel even decent about putting a, in the grand scheme, a terrible piece of work on the server. It's not like I've gone through and written several pieces of magic lore myself which I consider decent. You seem to have this idea that I've never actually interacted with lore on my own and have no room to blame the lore.

 

I have every room to blame the lore. I've been in chats with people who have given full detailed theories about why our lore is bad. We've had public votes in the past about removing magic lore and starting from scratch from the likes of PtahWithin and Lagomorphia - and that poll, to my recollection, showed most players favored a magic wipe.

 

-snip-

 

If you guys take anything from this post at all go read this guys post in full.

 

Really Tech team, really? It's like you're trying to set a fire. 

This **** is gonna go down like Villian Apps.

I'm actually not trying to set a fire, but it's burning anyway. I merely wished to point out the issue and see what players thought - most seem to agree having it dead is good.

 

Can we implement some sort of spells for staves? MC enchanting isn't LOTC enchanting. The same could be done with a few spells.

 

Fire Staff - Fireball -> May burn?

Ice Staff - Ice shard -> Applies Slow?

Healing Staff - Heals a set amount in a radius to all players

Lightning Staff - Lightning bolt

 

Just add one spell staves. Don't worry about the lore just add a mage option to pvp. Make them work like the undead aegis staves. They degrade per use. More OP ones have small amounts of use. Insert it into the enchanting plugin. High elven racial buff could finally come true -> can maybe do something with staves. A free use of the staff by double-shifting or something.

 

I would be happy with a simple plugin that doesn't have prejudice. It doesn't need it if you find a way to balance 2-10 spells for LOTC pvp.  

Funny enough the plugin I just scrapped was the second iteration of a plugin. You may recall my conversations in GM chat(s) about it but I was coding a plugin that went along that very same lines. About two months ago I scrapped it as well because it wasn't very fun to use, craft, or interact with. None of the things I could think of could solve that fact and so in the end the system just wasn't compatible with LotC and was shut down.

 

I don't see why we need a magic plugin

 

• Lag
• People will learn magic because PVP skills and not because of character progression
• Magic as a whole will become far less RP oriented and more RPG oriented

Leave magic as is. The heart of LOTC is in RP, and the heart of RP is in text emotes. Stop bringing all the important elements of RP into RPG systems of crafting or fighting.

I know PVP exists and mechanics default, but that's a failsafe and something to fall back on, not what we should be gravitating all forms of combat, or RP for that matter, towards.

• Lag Please see the previous post where the last person who mentioned Lag got addressed. It'll be the same here, you have absolutely no idea what processes take up the portion of the server's CPU. Please don't make points you can't back up in any way shape or form.
• So half of our server's combat is just for some singular character's progression?
• And magic is already considered irrelevant in many places.

 

-snip-

Basically, what I read here is "my character is getting pvp defaulted give me a plugin please".

 

This post isn't about your specific character. This post will never be about a single player's character. The magic plugin isn't about a single player's character. It's about adding something to the server to promote a mechanical representation of Magic. That's the goal, to give magic a tangible feel on the server. Yet there's an issue with that - what I just said. It gives magic a tangible feel on the server. That in itself is the problem - allowing such a monstrous mass of a mess a physical, tangible way to influence the server mechanically is the problem. So, naturally that's half of the reason it was scrapped.

[drfate786 1690]

If our magic lore is crap, why not just rewrite it?

[nepir 472]

i mabe say some thing stupit right now (i am sure)  magic is something that is realy powerfull if you make it a skill line  kristals that work the same way as the soulstone you cast it and it has a cooldown so you can stick with lore and still have the pvp part for magic that is not to hard to use and you will get a new kirstall after you cast the last one a set amount of times is it to over power ad on spell fails

[AlmondTree 418]

I welcome news like this. With PvP default the RP in combat scenarios went down and it is bound to happen if a magic plugin is released. I can not see a reasonable way to implement a magic plugin with all the hundred of different magic combinations that there is at the moment, people having this "Magicka" way of looking at it.