Let's Talk; The Magic Plugin & Magic in General

[Demotheus 651]

Honestly, the magic plugin would just turn LOTC into a pvp server.

It is true that this would complicate things. . . a whole lump some of reforms in magic lore and the integration/coordination of this new system efficiently seems like a lot. The real issues behind this is the mechanics involved with magics in the face of PvP. Everyone seems like the issue is that "Hey, why can't we mages actually have the upper hand in these situations when it would be in our advantage?" when in reality the real issue is "Why aren't the PvP rules of a roleplay server guarding roleplay?" 

What I am suggesting is reforming the rules concerning PvP. I am sorry to any passionate, mouse slamming people who absolutely love PvP but this is a roleplay server. This isn't made for running up to people, emoting two times, and then suggesting PvP when it's not in your favor which seems to be the case quite often. PvP is ultimately proper in war claims and skirmishes but outside of that, it isn't. Focusing on that issue would resolve this one as well.

 

Magic would be more prominently RP'd with if the lore wasnt considered an over complicated mess where someone is given the legal rights to what many consider power gaming with no actual way of telling if they're not because the post doesn't actually describe them well enough for an average player to understand their limits.

 

-snip-

 

The audacity to blame it on the lore? Is that really what you said? Alright, it's not like I've coded two whole versions of the magic plugin by now and scrapped both not because I got bored of it or I didn't want players to have it (xd). I scrapped the plugins because there is no way the playerbase will ever enjoy it, and there is no way I could feel even decent about putting a, in the grand scheme, a terrible piece of work on the server. It's not like I've gone through and written several pieces of magic lore myself which I consider decent. You seem to have this idea that I've never actually interacted with lore on my own and have no room to blame the lore.

 

I have every room to blame the lore. I've been in chats with people who have given full detailed theories about why our lore is bad. We've had public votes in the past about removing magic lore and starting from scratch from the likes of PtahWithin and Lagomorphia - and that poll, to my recollection, showed most players favored a magic wipe.

 

-snip-

 

If you guys take anything from this post at all go read this guys post in full.

 

Really Tech team, really? It's like you're trying to set a fire. 

This **** is gonna go down like Villian Apps.

 

I'm actually not trying to set a fire, but it's burning anyway. I merely wished to point out the issue and see what players thought - most seem to agree having it dead is good.

 

Can we implement some sort of spells for staves? MC enchanting isn't LOTC enchanting. The same could be done with a few spells.

 

Fire Staff - Fireball -> May burn?

Ice Staff - Ice shard -> Applies Slow?

Healing Staff - Heals a set amount in a radius to all players

Lightning Staff - Lightning bolt

 

Just add one spell staves. Don't worry about the lore just add a mage option to pvp. Make them work like the undead aegis staves. They degrade per use. More OP ones have small amounts of use. Insert it into the enchanting plugin. High elven racial buff could finally come true -> can maybe do something with staves. A free use of the staff by double-shifting or something.

 

I would be happy with a simple plugin that doesn't have prejudice. It doesn't need it if you find a way to balance 2-10 spells for LOTC pvp.  

 

Funny enough the plugin I just scrapped was the second iteration of a plugin. You may recall my conversations in GM chat(s) about it but I was coding a plugin that went along that very same lines. About two months ago I scrapped it as well because it wasn't very fun to use, craft, or interact with. None of the things I could think of could solve that fact and so in the end the system just wasn't compatible with LotC and was shut down.

 

I don't see why we need a magic plugin

 

• Lag
• People will learn magic because PVP skills and not because of character progression
• Magic as a whole will become far less RP oriented and more RPG oriented

Leave magic as is. The heart of LOTC is in RP, and the heart of RP is in text emotes. Stop bringing all the important elements of RP into RPG systems of crafting or fighting.

I know PVP exists and mechanics default, but that's a failsafe and something to fall back on, not what we should be gravitating all forms of combat, or RP for that matter, towards.

 

• Lag Please see the previous post where the last person who mentioned Lag got addressed. It'll be the same here, you have absolutely no idea what processes take up the portion of the server's CPU. Please don't make points you can't back up in any way shape or form.
• So half of our server's combat is just for some singular character's progression?
• And magic is already considered irrelevant in many places.

 

-snip-

 

Basically, what I read here is "my character is getting pvp defaulted give me a plugin please".

 

This post isn't about your specific character. This post will never be about a single player's character. The magic plugin isn't about a single player's character. It's about adding something to the server to promote a mechanical representation of Magic. That's the goal, to give magic a tangible feel on the server. Yet there's an issue with that - what I just said. It gives magic a tangible feel on the server. That in itself is the problem - allowing such a monstrous mass of a mess a physical, tangible way to influence the server mechanically is the problem. So, naturally that's half of the reason it was scrapped.

When he says lag he means personal lag I think. As in FPS drops.

Furthermore, there is a thing that happens on the server that influences the server mechanically. It's call PVP default.

I'm not saying remove pvp default.

 

But remove pvp default (i'm aware you don't have the ability to do this personally) if the reason you're not adding the plugin is because it's mechanical. Our magic lore is pointedly mechanical. The magic lore sucks, point out. People have been saying it. I'm a magic user myself, by the way. All the bullshit with focusing and ****. Mages don't stand a chance. It's pretty fair, in truth, in a 1v1 fight. If a mage takes so much as a hit their magic, for most types, is done. Because they have no other way to defend themselves except for maybe very shitty sword skills or daggers.

Since when did gandalf take a single hit and was like "**** i'm fucked"? I really doubt that's how it goes down unless that hit is some serious ****. And do you know what mage vs mage fights are? They could be awesome, if it weren't for the fact that it's a game of whoever can make th eother mage feel pain first wins most of the time.

It's a **** focus based system. Maybe focus when you're a newby mage, but needing to focus as a mage that's known their craft for decades? Seems a bit disappointing.

Glass cannon doesn't mean that they can dish out tons of damage but the moment they get a slap they lose all of that ability. It means that their survivablity is lower in favor of higher damage out put. That's how mages are thought of throughout most situations. Unless their utility mages or mages specifically there for other reasons, like druids, who have many ways of defending themselves rather than attacking.

Just give us the plugin. If it sucks / isn't right for the server you can take it back and say you told us so.

[Sporadic 2843]

The audacity to blame it on the lore? Is that really what you said? Alright, it's not like I've coded two whole versions of the magic plugin by now and scrapped both not because I got bored of it or I didn't want players to have it (xd). I scrapped the plugins because there is no way the playerbase will ever enjoy it, and there is no way I could feel even decent about putting a, in the grand scheme, a terrible piece of work on the server. It's not like I've gone through and written several pieces of magic lore myself which I consider decent. You seem to have this idea that I've never actually interacted with lore on my own and have no room to blame the lore.

 

I have every room to blame the lore. I've been in chats with people who have given full detailed theories about why our lore is bad. We've had public votes in the past about removing magic lore and starting from scratch from the likes of PtahWithin and Lagomorphia - and that poll, to my recollection, showed most players favored a magic wipe.

Druids have always been the centerpoint of guildlocked magic decisions. Druidism isn't just guildlocked it's super guildlocked, with attunement and forceful un-attunement and whatnot (actually there's been some controversy maybe they changed it since i last checked). There's been some ooc reasons for that, the darkest of which is "the magic is too powerful in the wrong rper's hand", which of course points out the glaring magic imbalance (in the old days an arch-druid could take on a small batallion of 'normal' soldiers) that a tech might be reluctant to code. Anyway druids protect their lore tooth and nail so the favored option is to keep druid magic 'RP only' and give non-guildlocked magics the toys.

 

magic lore isn't bad it just fails to deliver in a lot of criteria: mechanical balance, 'fairness', new player accessibility . That magic is a bit of an old boys' network these days nobody can deny but it's fine because there's creative freedom, it lets veterans enjoy this game the way they want to, give people the option to develop their character through magic, and PvP default means it's always balanced. But Magic plugin just places a MASSIVE spotlight on all the faults of the lore. Lore masters can turn a blind eye because of PvP default, plugin makers cannot: Just look at all the people trying to roll olog for pvp bonuses; what do you think will happen if one subtype is slightly more powerful than the rest?

 

Even if it could be coded, why bother? Lore people don't want you to, and you put twice the effort in a mediocre plugin that certainly isn't fun or flashy for prospective new players (which is a big motivator behind such a plugin). Putting time in a lore-correct magic plugin can be put in other stuff that's a lot easier and a lot less political.
(there's a slight political tang to all this. There's a bit of a turf war on LotC between the lore and tech people. Techs don't want to be the LM code monkies and LMs don't want the techs to make all the executive design decisions. It's only natural.)

 

You can always try to put an off-the-shelf magic plugin in during a temp map. It'll give you an idea of the complaints a poorly adjusted magic plugin will get (multiply complaints by 10 since it won't be temp for the real thing)

Edited October 31, 2015 by Sporadic

[xDK 1205]

*cough* Make the magic plugin only aesthetically pleasing. *cough*

Edited October 31, 2015 by xDK

[Song Druid 1486]

 

-snip-

 

The audacity to blame it on the lore? Is that really what you said? Alright, it's not like I've coded two whole versions of the magic plugin by now and scrapped both not because I got bored of it or I didn't want players to have it (xd). I scrapped the plugins because there is no way the playerbase will ever enjoy it, and there is no way I could feel even decent about putting a, in the grand scheme, a terrible piece of work on the server. It's not like I've gone through and written several pieces of magic lore myself which I consider decent. You seem to have this idea that I've never actually interacted with lore on my own and have no room to blame the lore.

 

I have every room to blame the lore. I've been in chats with people who have given full detailed theories about why our lore is bad. We've had public votes in the past about removing magic lore and starting from scratch from the likes of PtahWithin and Lagomorphia - and that poll, to my recollection, showed most players favored a magic wipe.

You blame it specifically on Guildlocked magics.  As someone who is, as Sporadic so nicely put it, at the very center of those magics, you're essentially saying that----wait, know you're actually LITERALLY SAYING IT

 

tl;dr - Magic plugin is scrapped because LotC's magic lore is terrible and impossible to work with, I would like opinions on what you think." ~501Warhead, 2015

 

I'm no coder.  I'm not.  But your excuses are bullshit and if all you came here to do was give shitty excuses you may as well have not said anything, everyone knew the magic plugin was scrapped, all you've done is tried to justify it by pointing fingers at the wrong people.  I will openly admit I don't know much about the other magic lore out there.  But you didn't specify any lore you said all of it.  And I know Drudism is not how you describe it, and I know that it isn't that difficult to let only certain people use it.  Good god just make a class system.  Herocraft has like 12 classes.

 

Instead of seeing how others took to your alleged 2 plugin attempts you scrapped them without showing them here or getting player commentary on how to make them work because I am QUITE SURE we are willing to compromise on a few things just to get a damn plugin already.  So yes.   I stand by my statement.  You have the absurdity to blame it on the lore when really there are so many other options you could have taken.

 

HEY! HERE'S A THOUGHT.

Post a thread, just like this one, entitled "Magic Plugin Commentary"

 

"Hey guys, I have put up 2 servers with test plugins here, go in and see what you think and how you interact with it.  The plugin is not there yet but I think with the player feedback from this huge ass community we can get it where it needs to be!  We might have to make a few compromises that don't 100% line up with lore but please remember it's just a plugin to achieve an end, we can fill the rest in with RP!"

 

 

Instead you chose to make a post that nobody asked for giving excuses nobody believed about a plugin nobody thought was going to come anyway.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

Personally, I don't give a damn how many players vote for a magic lore wipe.  Druidism isn't going anywhere.  If the rest of the server's lore is terrible as you say then do what you want with it.  We've had our **** together for a very long time.

 

 

Personally I feel like that few hundred bucks Vaq paid Pumpkin_Eaterz to make that forum template that we used for like, 5 months should have went to a professional coder to do something with.  Instead we were paying Vaq.  Good god it's the same **** every time

 

[Song Druid 1486]

 

ALSO:  It won't let me edit my post so. I'm willing to compromise.  The Druids don't need anything flashy.  The most damaging spell we asked for from Telanir was a thorns spell I think, and a pushback spell.

 

We just want to do lifewalk and grow trees.

[argonian 14254]

If our magic lore is crap, why not just rewrite it?

You'd have to deal with legions of people angry that their guild-locked OP magic is going to be removed/changed. And rewriting this stuff would take FOREVER.

[Wolf Druid Ouity 1461]

If we're going to put a specific focus on Druidism for a discussion like this, let's indeed discuss, as Arik mentioned, that all we've ever wanted was aestetic spells. I'm just as happy fighting with a sword, probably moreso. My character is well versed in the art of swordplay, and I've never really believed in combat spells in the first place because it makes people seek the magic for all the wrong reasons. I know that I'm a minority saying this, but I believe that roleplay should be the driving factor on this server. 

Look at what it is now. Everyone knows it's basically factions PVP with a backstory. We all banter about it day in and day out. It's like that BECAUSE staff choose to make RP-RPG decisions for the server instead of roleplay centric ones, and I've absolutely never understood why. Frankly, if you want to make an RPG server, leave. Join Availer over at Dungeon Realms and let us have what we came here for. Do I think PVP has no place in LOTC? Absolutely not. I like to PVP, I love participating in wars, I enjoy playing minecraft. Should PVP be the driving force behind the decisions and policy for the server? No?! Like what the hell? I really don't understand why the staff doesn't understand it, but when you make decisions regarding enhancing and creating roleplay on the server, the server becomes much more roleplay centric. We've been around long enough to see that trend. When you make decisions regarding PVP (PVP race buffs, wide open map for conquests etc) then the server becomes more PVP centric.

 

It's frankly, extremely annoying when I see a post like this that says mechanics should take precedent over lore which has been developed by people wanting to forge their story for what is it, four years now? I don't think a plugin is worth shitting on somebody else's hard work, and frankly I don't see how the lore is a big deal anyway.

 

"Grow Tree- Druid Spell" does the code have to know that the power to grow the tree comes from the Aspects versus the void? Probably not unless you were looking at alternate ammo systems (which would be absurdly easy anyway). Likewise, doesn't matter if a shade is casting a spell, nor cleric, nor mage, because unless I'm missing something big, all the code needs is a projectile speed, size, damage, and particles. Beyond that, I dare say the lore is almost totally irrelevant. I can only see the issue with guildlocked magic, and to that I say what a billion people have already said- why not give the MA system an actual feasible purpose? Right now it's just a worthless, idiotic system to give magic players a hard time- and last I checked half the MAT didn't even agree with the MA system anyway (lol?). It would be so simple to make /magic adduser Ouity druidism work, but you insist on making things more complicated by reading into the backstory of the magic your job is simply to physically represent. 

[Ricky 321]

 

I believe you absolutely right, a lack of continuity in RP exactly what we have, loopholes and underappreciation of Lore on an opposing magic is stupid. And to be fair the whole Guild locked thing is correct as well.  Although I do believe that you can with effort simply disregard all current lore (you hold that power) and create a new plugin with your own preferences and Lore (something like every architype of magic comes from a daemon or aungel) and people are to just base their RP and tough **** if your magic didn’t make the cut, that’s it fixed.    (Basically force new Lore upon them and bring order to a long unregulated thing so there is always pvp default in magic fights of lore/powergame contention.

 

But if not then I believe there should be no Plugin and magic users should wallow in their own poor inconsistent RP.

 

PS. Also with good and bad magic types they should just be there and the way groups RP the use of them/learning of them can be different. So Paladins and Clerics have the same magic but one group belive in mastery of the sword aswell as magic.

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by Ricky

[Giga 357]

Telanir's showcase way back when showed what appeared to be a fully functional magic plugin in my eyes. I don't see how the lore doesn't support a plugin that WAS supported. Here's a question: If I followed a few tutorials and HYPOTHETICALLY managed to code my own working segment of a Druid plugin, be it a command that turns a hoe into an infinite bonemeal machine, would it be legitimate enough to be incorporated into the server if it worked and was tested by the Devs?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Giga

[Wolf Druid Ouity 1461]

 

I believe you absolutely right, a lack of continuity in RP exactly what we have, loopholes and underappreciation of Lore on an opposing magic is stupid. And to be fair the whole Guild locked thing is correct as well.  Although I do believe that you can with effort simply disregard all current lore (you hold that power) and create a new plugin with your own preferences and Lore (something like every architype of magic comes from a daemon or aungel) and people are to just base their RP and tough **** if your magic didn’t make the cut, that’s it fixed.    (Basically force new Lore upon them and bring order to a long unregulated thing so there is always pvp default in magic fights of lore/powergame contention.

 

But if not then I believe there should be no Plugin and magic users should wallow in their own poor inconsistent RP.

 

PS. Also with good and bad magic types they should just be there and the way groups RP the use of them/learning of them can be different. So Paladins and Clerics have the same magic but one group belive in mastery of the sword aswell as magic.

 

If we're going to put a specific focus on Druidism for a discussion like this, let's indeed discuss, as Arik mentioned, that all we've ever wanted was aestetic spells. I'm just as happy fighting with a sword, probably moreso. My character is well versed in the art of swordplay, and I've never really believed in combat spells in the first place because it makes people seek the magic for all the wrong reasons. I know that I'm a minority saying this, but I believe that roleplay should be the driving factor on this server. 

Look at what it is now. Everyone knows it's basically factions PVP with a backstory. We all banter about it day in and day out. It's like that BECAUSE staff choose to make RP-RPG decisions for the server instead of roleplay centric ones, and I've absolutely never understood why. Frankly, if you want to make an RPG server, leave. Join Availer over at Dungeon Realms and let us have what we came here for. Do I think PVP has no place in LOTC? Absolutely not. I like to PVP, I love participating in wars, I enjoy playing minecraft. Should PVP be the driving force behind the decisions and policy for the server? No?! Like what the hell? I really don't understand why the staff doesn't understand it, but when you make decisions regarding enhancing and creating roleplay on the server, the server becomes much more roleplay centric. We've been around long enough to see that trend. When you make decisions regarding PVP (PVP race buffs, wide open map for conquests etc) then the server becomes more PVP centric.

 

It's frankly, extremely annoying when I see a post like this that says mechanics should take precedent over lore which has been developed by people wanting to forge their story for what is it, four years now? I don't think a plugin is worth shitting on somebody else's hard work

[Stag 3229]

 

Can we implement some sort of spells for staves? MC enchanting isn't LOTC enchanting. The same could be done with a few spells.

Fire Staff - Fireball -> May burn?

Ice Staff - Ice shard -> Applies Slow?

Healing Staff - Heals a set amount in a radius to all players

Lightning Staff - Lightning bolt

 

Just add one spell staves. Don't worry about the lore just add a mage option to pvp. Make them work like the undead aegis staves. They degrade per use. More OP ones have small amounts of use. Insert it into the enchanting plugin. High elven racial buff could finally come true -> can maybe do something with staves. A free use of the staff by double-shifting or something.

 

I would be happy with a simple plugin that doesn't have prejudice. It doesn't need it if you find a way to balance 2-10 spells for LOTC pvp.  

 

Funny enough the plugin I just scrapped was the second iteration of a plugin. You may recall my conversations in GM chat(s) about it but I was coding a plugin that went along that very same lines. About two months ago I scrapped it as well because it wasn't very fun to use, craft, or interact with. None of the things I could think of could solve that fact and so in the end the system just wasn't compatible with LotC and was shut down.

 

I remember when we just had fire staffs that just shot fireballs and I thought it was fun. A few basic spells aren't meant to be titillating. It just fills in that missing spot in pvp. We already mess around with how you can augment your pvp experience from items that increase your speed to armor that gives more damage. 1-10 single-spell-staves being added, in my opinion, would add the flavour so many people are craving. Nothing needs to be fancy about it. Staves that use gold nuggets or something as ammo and call it a day yo! Magic lore is a web of confusion so don't cater to it. Cater to the players. Don't give the lore a plugin, give the players a plugin. 

My point it. DOWN WITH THE MAGIC PLUGIN! UP WITH THE STAFF PLUGIN!

 

EDIT: I think the only thing we should avoid is rewriting lore based off of mechanics. That is like rewriting blacksmithing lore because we can pick up and plop down anvils like they are gift-wrapped fruit cakes.

Edited October 31, 2015 by BrandNewKitten

[Sister Sequoia 438]

Let's not also forget about certain coders, past and present, that don't WANT magic restricted in any way to accommodate closed groups, and that words were said along the lines of "either everyone has access to all the spells or no plugin." like a gun held to our heads.

 

Don't throw blame on the lore, lore has literally nothing to do with physically representing a spell, and we've got plenty of plugins that run off of individual permission nodes assigned to a group or player, that's how the ENTIRE donation system runs in fact. You're making scapegoats and creating anger and paranoia, imo in an attempt to stir the server against closed magic groups that you dislike and try to get one of those ever so popular "community opinion" polls that you can point at to try to sway people into getting rid of something.

[EmbryoGod 823]

I'm more tired of people trying to use Magic as a form of combat instead of swords, and powerful mages being destroyed because a new player said "PvP default" and walked in with armor on just completely wrecking the mage because the mage doesn't have to carry around a sword or armor. It's unfair to ask "Hey guys, if you want to be a mage, you don't get any representation on this server when it comes to mechanics based combat, and you have to just carry armor around, because you better expect some PvP Default." 

[Jistuma 1996]

Btw, to all of those reading, it's not the lore that is problematic on the magic plugin development and implemention, it's the fact that it's locked and that not everyone would be able to have the magic.

Seriously, look at the magic lore and tell me if there is anything in it that would stop a plugin being made for the magic plugin. It's spells. You want examples of how spells would fit with a magic plugin?

Fire/water/earth/air/electric/arcane mage: A fire/ice/earth/air/electric/acane projectile.
Illusionists: Give blindness to someone else.
Conjuration: Create an animal.
Elementalist: See mages.
War clerics and paladins: See mages, just add extra damage to dark beings.
Cleric Priests and monks: Healing.
Druids: Giving slow to someone (vines stop movement). That's 90% of the spells they use.
Frost Witches: See mages.
Necromancers: Create Skeletons, about the same as Conjuration.
Kha magic: See mages.
Shades: Tentacles? I don't know what shades do much.
Blood Mages, Contract, puppetry, far seer, and others: No plugin, they require RP.

Is that hard? No, that's probably super easy. The fact of the matter is that warhead was working on it and does not think that having guilds, and way of learning magic like it is now is good enough for a plugin. He doesn't want a plugin that does spells, he wants to develop the whole thing. Learning someway, leveling up, etc etc.

Combining a plugin and lore, many times isn't as hard as it seems. The lore isn't bad, the lore might be hard to understand, but that's not stopping a plugin being developed to follow it. What is stopping a plugin being developed to follow it is the idea that the plugin must follow it. It's doesn't become a new interractive plugin of LOTC, it becomes a plugin that mages uses to pvp. That would be it. It'll just be a few spells given to a few players, probably a bit weak or well balanced or whatever. It'll be a mediocre plugin.

To tell the truth, that's what I always wanted in a magic plugin, a mediocre plugin that just does what it's suppose to do. No coder will get much satisfaction in making a plugin like that, I just feel that it's how the plugin should be made. Even if it does everything it's suppose to do, there will be hate, probably on both sides (mages and non mages), maybe that as well stops the implementation of a mediocre plugin, who knows.

[The Elder Eye 101]

I'm more tired of people trying to use Magic as a form of combat instead of swords, and powerful mages being destroyed because a new player said "PvP default" and walked in with armor on just completely wrecking the mage because the mage doesn't have to carry around a sword or armor. It's unfair to ask "Hey guys, if you want to be a mage, you don't get any representation on this server when it comes to mechanics based combat, and you have to just carry armor around, because you better expect some PvP Default." 

I could not have worded this any better myself.