Your View: Merging Mental Magic and Cognitism

[Mephistophelian 977]

Your View: Merging Mental Magic and Cognitism

Though there isn't much to say, I shall say it nevertheless!

This is an Official MAT Your View, and we want to know what you guys think, so please vote away!
(Please note, this has NOT yet been agreed upon; we simply want to have the community's opinion on this, first...Yes, don't fall out of your chair.)

'Yes' is if you believe we should merge Cognitism and Mental Magic.
'No' is if you do not believe we should merge Cognitism and Mental Magic.
'Yes, but:' is for those who would like to see it happen, but have a point to raise. In the long run, this means 'yes'.

A while ago, a post went up that brought a question into our minds: Should Cognitism be merged with Mental Magic? Now we are acting on it. Do you, the public, wish to see Cognitism merge with mental magic? If so, vote. If not, why?

Now I am sure all of you have many questions, so I shall try address the few that I predict:

How will Cognitism be merged with Mental Magic?:
Just as Arcane Evocation and Arcane Shielding were merged, so will these two...with a twist. Since it is technically Mental Magic that is 'consuming' Cognitism, all Cognists will remain able to use Cognitism, but must get an MA to be able to us Mental Magic (i.e. they must learn it from a teacher or via the current, super strict self-teaching rules). This MA will then replace their cognitism 'magic slot', meaning they do not gain an extra magic slot for this. Meanwhile, Mental Mages may opt to learn Cognitism, though they do not need an MA for this (just as arcane evokers do not need an MA to learn the arcane shielding part of arcanism, or vice versa). They must simply learn it through legitimate means...Which we trust you guys with, as we trusted you with the Arcanism deal. The reasoning behind Mental Magic 'consuming' Cognitism is because it is the more used magic with applications that directly affect another player. Whilst you can go wrong with Cognitism, it will only really go wrong to yourself. You can't PG yourself, and the 'revelations' skill of Cognitism requires a GM to oversee, anyway.

Will there be any changes to Cognitism and Mental Magic abilities due to this?:
No, the abilities of both will be merged without either being affected. That said, you are free to vote 'Yes, but:' and explain what you would like to change about this.

How will Mental Magic and Cognitism work together? Doesn't the whole 'spectator mind' prevent this?:
The whole idea of the 'spectator mind' is to allow the Cognist to view illusions upon themselves whilst not going nuts. Since it is a skill developed, you can learn to create a spectator mind and still know you are creating an illusion upon yourself (you'd have to be mad if you didn't), but you cannot use Mental Magic at the same time (or illusion, for that matter), since you'd break the spectator mind and go nuts.

If I have plans for Cognitism/wish to keep Cognitism going/etc, will you reconsider?
Unless your plan specifically needs Cognitism to be a separate magic to work, it doesn't change much.

What if I want to use Cognitism on its own?
No one is stopping you! A Cognant can teach someone how to use Cognitism only, and you can thus keep the 'Cognitism' side alive. It will, however, fall under 'Mental Magic' and they will carry the potential to learn the Mental Magic side of the magic, too. They don't have to learn the Mental Magic part just as Mental Mages do not need to learn Cognitism.

[1 1393]

Indeed I would like this. It's actually quite ironic considering my original thought was to drop cognitism for mental.

[Wendigo 786]

In it's current state I agree. The ET doesn't seem utilize them to their full potential. It would be kind of nice having a prophet or two for our little community...but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Mephistophelian 977]

For those who have voted 'No', please say why in the comments! We need to discuss to know why you dislike the idea.

[Mithradites 1168]

Merging subtypes is a fine pastime, yes. I'd prefer some unaffiliated practitioners of both magics to give their opinions, though.

[Booklight12 481]

As one of the people who actually said the idea in the post I'm for this. The only issue I can see that'd be kinda weird is that mental mages will then more plentiful than illusion which would be kinda weird since originally if I believe you really needed illusion to actually learn mental magic. If it were up to me Id make all illusion magics a single magic. Some people may call that op since the magic would do so much, but Arcanism does it and feel illusion should too.

[GodEmperorFlam 3447]

30 minutes ago, Booklight12 said:

As one of the people who actually said the idea in the post I'm for this. The only issue I can see that'd be kinda weird is that mental mages will then more plentiful than illusion which would be kinda weird since originally if I believe you really needed illusion to actually learn mental magic. If it were up to me Id make all illusion magics a single magic. Some people may call that op since the magic would do so much, but Arcanism does it and feel illusion should too.

Arcanism isn't even close to how OP merging illusion and mental would be, not sure why you think that would be a good idea at all.

 

As for the thread itself, I support the idea as cognitism hardly sees any use (it is rather useless to a lot of people as it only effects the caster), so hopefully the merge will boost the amount of people using it without fear of wasting a magic slot.

[Swgrclan 2682]

Cognatism isn't casting an illusion on oneself, it is heightening the senses to achieve the effects of Cognatism, and greater feats such as foresight via revelation powers. Mixing Mental Magic and Cognatism seems kind of like pushing two magnets together, but I suppose if Mental Magic it's turned into an archetypal form of arcane, similar to the multiple powers of Clericism or Blood Magic or Necromancy, it's slew of abilities would make some sense.

[ski_king3 0]

Mental magic is already a very powerful subtype and doesn't need this addition. I am very strongly against this, and do not wish to see these two combined. Those who get cognatism do so knowing that they are forgoing a more useful magic, and it should stay that way.

 

Also swgr, it quite literally is casting an illusion on oneself, though the spectator mind can be used for a tad more than that.

[Swgrclan 2682]

Well, that doesn't make sense at all. An illusion is, well, an illusion - in LoTC definition of the magic for illusionry, the one who understands the illusion cast upon them is false breaks the illusion. If someone tries to cast an illusion on themselves while understanding it is indeed falsities, then it all breaks, and nothing happens. Illusions also do not heighten senses or lead to anything oriented to Cognatism's abilities, they're both separate by this logic. It's projected imagery based on belief.

[ski_king3 0]

23 minutes ago, Swgrclan said:

Well, that doesn't make sense at all. An illusion is, well, an illusion - in LoTC definition of the magic for illusionry, the one who understands the illusion cast upon them is false breaks the illusion. If someone tries to cast an illusion on themselves while understanding it is indeed falsities, then it all breaks, and nothing happens. Illusions also do not heighten senses or lead to anything oriented to Cognatism's abilities, they're both separate by this logic. It's projected imagery based on belief.

 

That's why the spectator mind is a thing. It's the cordoning of one's thoughts that allows an illusion to be cast upon oneself. If you read the lore, this issue is noted and rectified through the spectator mind.

[E__V__O 2000]

I voted no.

 

The reason being mental magic being as strong as it is. It doesn't need a new addition as it'll really defeat the purpose of illusion unless you want to combine, Sensory illusion, cognatsm and mental magic together. Leave them apart.

[ski_king3 0]

One other note is if it must be combined, then it should be combined with sensory illusion, as it's literally making use of the spectator mind to cast sensory illusion on yourself. It has no ties to mental magic lore-wise, while it does with sensory illusion.

[_mkkk_ 194]

I have been pondering whether or not to continue cognition lessons on my own and make a MA for it since my teacher is currently dead (luv ya disco). It's just I have been discouraged to since it serves no purpose other than independent research for sufficient results. It doesn't really develop RP with others so I haven't seen any interest in keeping up with it. If this does pass, I'll be more than happy to use it again.

[GDPR 014 48]

47 minutes ago, Maruthir said:

One other note is if it must be combined, then it should be combined with sensory illusion, as it's literally making use of the spectator mind to cast sensory illusion on yourself. It has no ties to mental magic lore-wise, while it does with sensory illusion.

Mental magic originated from a tree, of course it has no ties. I don't see why it wouldn't make sense to add cognatidn into mental magic, you're just making stimuli towards yourself. I'd like to know why you think mental magic is so OP anyway, if it's "oh, I can look into minds :D I'm strong now" then you need to understand that mental barriers can block a mental mage, as can wards. Not every mental magic user is t5 and can break through every mental barrier, bro.

 

But, I don't see a problem if both subtypes can use cognatism, I mean, it makes sense for both to be able to use it.