Your View: Merging Mental Magic and Cognitism

[ski_king3 0]

1 minute ago, ArcanicFable said:

Mental magic originated from a tree, of course it has no ties. I don't see why it wouldn't make sense to add cognatidn into mental magic, you're just making stimuli towards yourself. I'd like to know why you think mental magic is so OP anyway, if it's "oh, I can look into minds :D I'm strong now" then you need to understand that mental barriers can block a mental mage, as can wards. Not every mental magic user is t5 and can break through every mental barrier, bro.

 

Mental magic and cognatism are very different processes, whereas cognatism and sensory illusion are only marginally different.

 

And I've just heard a number of different ways mental magic is RP'ed which often contradict one another, to the point that while I was around when it was first approved, I am now fairly uncertain what its proper limits and extents are. Likewise, I don't think it's OP, but it is definitively one of the more powerful and useful magics and doesn't need a buff, even one just for flavor.

[DrakeHaze. 2524]

I didn't vote, but I'm in agreement with ski_king for the most part.

If it changes and mental and sensory illusion would want to combine I'd cry so much.

[GDPR 014 48]

@ski, 

I dont see a big problem with adding cognatism to mental magic. What's the worst thing the mental mage will do? Illusion himself a ruler no one else can see? Use hyper-thought to figure out something when no GM, ET, or MAT

A) does anything regarding cognatism so they really won't get anything out of hyper thought.

B) Can deny and tell them they can't figure it out? 

 

 

[ski_king3 0]

Well, it makes more sense for it to go with sensory illusion, so if we're seeking to combine the magic with another to give it more RP, it should be done with sensory illusion instead :P

 

But really, I don't see why those interested don't just go learn cognatism. It's a cool magic that's pretty rewarding if you are willing to RP it, and at least 2/3 of the teachers are looking for students I believe!

[Gone 869]

I have no clue what cognitism is or does other than it letting people measure stuff without a ruler. Trying to look up the lore didn't help. So... I'm just not going to vote here.

[Hydra 515]

No. I'm a cognat and have been one for quite some time, to allow any mental Mage to learn it would be horrible for the small group of us. Essentially we would lose a spot if we have mental magic which a majority of us don't have then mental mages gain cognitism for free. While we get nothing but the option to have to find a teacher and teach mental which is a teacher locked subtype.

 

As a cognat I haven't gotten a single event for a revelation and I have been asking for months, to spread around the almost nonexistent rp would be insane, Hugo focus on the current cognats and make the magic worth the slot.

[Rig 17591]

Sure. 

[DISCOLIQUID 2735]

I would rather see it wrapped into illusion.

[Gladuos 869]

Instead of merging cognitism with just mental magic, merge it with both sensory and mental magic. It's possible to learn cognitism after knowing either mental magic or sensory illusion, so it stands to reason it could be branched off from either magics. Not to mention mental magic already has a large array of abilities. Merging it with mental magic would make mental the dominating choice over sensory illusion, which shouldn't be the case.

I still agree it should be merged with mental magic, but also allow it with sensory illusion. Cognitism on its own gives almost no RP outside of the person casting, so it definitely requires this kind of attention. Hopefully more people will be RPing cognitism from a decision like this, but don't make mental magic the obvious choice over sensory illusion.

[501warhead 1796]

Since I was asked to make a response here, I shall.

 

So, some points to be made. These are based on the original lore and as such it's a take it or leave it.

 

Cognatism is the act of convincing a portion of your mind that an illusion is real, able to switch between this portion which is labeled as the "Spectator mind", switching puts you into a trance-like state. However, some flaws exist with this.

 

First off, the act of convincing yourself an illusion is real requires a certain personality and mindset, it's certainly not for everyone. Not just this but... imagine a Cognat's mind after this process: traversing through it would be... pretty difficult. The emotions and feelings a mental mage would read from a Cognat's mind would be very jarring and sporadic to say the least. Memories would be hard to draw forward due to this finite balance a cognat has achieved with this process - by default Cognatism is a natural barrier against mental magic due to the fact that just entering would be like seeing two doors which lead into a house which is only half complete, and only one door can be opened at a time. Memories would be scattered between the minds, and entering a dormant spectator mind... is something a mage should avoid for their mental health.

 

With this in mind the question comes up - can mental magic be learned if you have cognatism or vice versa? The old guide to Cognatism said not only yes but that it was one of the requirements. This... is a little bit incorrect but it's a bit too late to change things, I suppose. So, let's put this in perspective: Cognatism is the act of building a way for yourself to view illusions as real in a trance-like state. Mental magic is the act of finding a mind through the void and communicating with it through words, pictures, or emotions. By default one would assume that mental magic requires a great deal of mental stability from the acting user, how can you find any mind in the void if you can't even touch or access your spectator mind in the slightest unless you switch entirely? The fear of possibly puncturing or accidentally drawing memories or thoughts from that sector of your mind would probably put you off knowing full well that doing so would likely result in very quick insanity when you manage to get an infinite feed loop.

 

This isn't even mentioning the fact as well that you would likely need to maintain active control over your mind at all stages to keep the Spectator mind in it's dormant state as it's not like it's some box you open only when you wish to - split personalities hardly are that simple. Personally, I would probably say that mental magic and Cognatism are in-compatible - even to the portion to say that Cognats are extremely resistant to mental magic. Under this logic, merging them would be... silly, to say the least.

 

However! I acknowledge, Cognatism is not that useful of a magic for those who wish it less for the RP value and more for the character power factor. Under this, I feel like Cognatism shouldn't take a magic slot due to being the basic equivalent to mage house magic. It's "neat"! It's not practical. I don't feel like merging them is the answer however.

[Mephistophelian 977]

I do not have much time, but I will make the most of what I have read. Thank you all for your feedback!

 

1) Cognitism IS indeed the pressing of illusions upon yourself.

 

2) If nental magic merging with Cognitism is seen as a bad idea by some, I shudder to think what others will say about sensory illusion being thrown in.

 

3) I do not understand the plight to merge it with illusion,instead. Illusion is the pressing of false images to many people. Mental magic can do that, but only to one. Surely it makes more sense that cognitisk merges with the magic that can target only one's self?

 

4) The spectator mind exists so that a user of this magic may use it without going crazy. Thusly, I'm sure a cognist can slowly withdraw from projecting their spectator mind and then perform mental magic.

 

5) Mental magic came from a tree, not illusion. Tssk tssk ;)

 

6) Would you prefer it if Mental Mages nust get an MA to learn cognitism, too? IF SO, copy paste this and say "Aye".

 

7) Or vice versa: should neither require an MA? Same thing for here; copy paste and say "Aye".

 

8) How is Mental magic considered OP?

 

9) Furthermore, how do you the community believe it will be more OP by giving the mental mage the ability to literally view illusions only they can see, or very very rarely see some sort of revelation?

 

I'm so sorry if I missed your point, but I've got exams to go to! As you may notice, I am trying not to argue against you, merely understand your reasoning. So feel free to answer! Please do, actually!

[luv 3469]

8 hours ago, DISCOLIQUID said:

I would rather see it wrapped into illusion.

^

[Mephistophelian 977]

13 hours ago, Why. said:

Since I was asked to make a response here, I shall.

 

So, some points to be made. These are based on the original lore and as such it's a take it or leave it.

 

Cognatism is the act of convincing a portion of your mind that an illusion is real, able to switch between this portion which is labeled as the "Spectator mind", switching puts you into a trance-like state. However, some flaws exist with this.

 

First off, the act of convincing yourself an illusion is real requires a certain personality and mindset, it's certainly not for everyone. Not just this but... imagine a Cognat's mind after this process: traversing through it would be... pretty difficult. The emotions and feelings a mental mage would read from a Cognat's mind would be very jarring and sporadic to say the least. Memories would be hard to draw forward due to this finite balance a cognat has achieved with this process - by default Cognatism is a natural barrier against mental magic due to the fact that just entering would be like seeing two doors which lead into a house which is only half complete, and only one door can be opened at a time. Memories would be scattered between the minds, and entering a dormant spectator mind... is something a mage should avoid for their mental health.

 

With this in mind the question comes up - can mental magic be learned if you have cognatism or vice versa? The old guide to Cognatism said not only yes but that it was one of the requirements. This... is a little bit incorrect but it's a bit too late to change things, I suppose. So, let's put this in perspective: Cognatism is the act of building a way for yourself to view illusions as real in a trance-like state. Mental magic is the act of finding a mind through the void and communicating with it through words, pictures, or emotions. By default one would assume that mental magic requires a great deal of mental stability from the acting user, how can you find any mind in the void if you can't even touch or access your spectator mind in the slightest unless you switch entirely? The fear of possibly puncturing or accidentally drawing memories or thoughts from that sector of your mind would probably put you off knowing full well that doing so would likely result in very quick insanity when you manage to get an infinite feed loop.

 

This isn't even mentioning the fact as well that you would likely need to maintain active control over your mind at all stages to keep the Spectator mind in it's dormant state as it's not like it's some box you open only when you wish to - split personalities hardly are that simple. Personally, I would probably say that mental magic and Cognatism are in-compatible - even to the portion to say that Cognats are extremely resistant to mental magic. Under this logic, merging them would be... silly, to say the least.

 

However! I acknowledge, Cognatism is not that useful of a magic for those who wish it less for the RP value and more for the character power factor. Under this, I feel like Cognatism shouldn't take a magic slot due to being the basic equivalent to mage house magic. It's "neat"! It's not practical. I don't feel like merging them is the answer however.

I've had the chance to read through this now. I won't go into full explanation (or maybe I will by the end of this), but what you are saying is like....Me saying a Mental Mage who can make a powerful mental barrier cannot do mental magic anymore. Yes, Cognitism uses the 'Spectator Mind' but No, it does not suddenly make you unable to use Mental Magic. But I digress; Mental Magic can work with Cognitism, has worked with Cognitism for a very long time, and will still work with Cognitism until the MAT or LT wishes to write out that it doesn't. Besides, what you are describing is someone entering the mind of a Cognant whilst they have the spectator mind up; it has nothing to do with using Mental Magic and Cognitism at the same time. Yes, it would be crazy, but you can always put the spectator mind down and then use other magics, such as mental magic.

I do not know how much you know of Cognitism, so bear in mind my following comments are based off the accepted guide and lore, nothing more. Cognitism is the act of creating a spectator mind when needed, doing cognant stuff, and then allowing the spectator mind to drop away once more. The spectator mind is not kept up constantly for the rest of the cognant's life. If it was, I would understand your point.

As for those that believe Sensory Illusion would be better suited to merge with cognitism instead of mental magic: Sensory Illusion is the making of Illusions on many people. Cognitism is the making of illusions on one person (yourself). Mental magic is capable of making illusions on one person (not yourself). Technically, Cognitism thus fits better into the category of mental magic than it does sensory illusion.

I would also like to note that that some people have thought that merging mental magic and cognitism will give the mage in question the ability to create illusions on many people, much like Sensory Illusion. This is not true, and the merging of both magics will keep it exactly as is. Besides, you cannot use mental magic and cognitism at the same time (mental magic cannot be done when you have a spectator mind up).

[Booklight12 481]

On 1/22/2016 at 9:23 AM, The Pink Lion said:

Arcanism isn't even close to how OP merging illusion and mental would be, not sure why you think that would be a good idea at all.cog

 

As for the thread itself, I support the idea as cognitism hardly sees any use (it is rather useless to a lot of people as it only effects the caster), so hopefully the merge will boost the amount of people using it without fear of wasting a magic slot.

That's why I said if it were up to me, I know it'll never happen cause it'd be considered OP and most likely will be. Now an issue Hugo said that is both a pretty cool but confusing solution is the requirement that if the person wishes to learn the magic they must make an Ma despite the merge. The reason this can be cool is that both magic users of the magics will essentially have positives and it'd make more sense RPly. Cognitists won't feel like they get the short end of the stick because the mental mages will need to make an MA to learn their magic, and visa versa. The issue however is the fact that it will basically end up being two magics again, the only difference is that you can learn both magics with only the cost of one point. Which would as well make the MA system more confusing.

 Hydra raises a good point in that despite how long he has been using the magic he hasn't experienced a single revelation which is the main reason many would stick with the magic despite its' simple purpose and he as the other cognitists may feel their characters abilities are getting ignored. I personally feel a good way to regulate the flow of both magics into each other would for the first month or two when you merge require people to make MA's for the two magics, but have the MA's be relatively lenient to allow self teaching (Possibly) this could be to separate those who are genuinely interested in each magics to join. Then after 2 or 3 months to open it up fully and make MA's no longer mandatory. This would give those who genuinely enjoy each magic a chance to learn and experience them before the hoard of others learn it for free. And possibly give a basis of people who's characters would be able to preform revelations to start, being all those people who'd genuinely be interested.

 In the end though merging the two magics is kinda tricky because any way you do it you will piss someone off, but I think merging the magics would be a good thing for the server in the end of things. 

[Mephistophelian 977]

1 hour ago, Booklight12 said:

-Snip-

 

The initial proposal was:

- have Cognants make an MA for Mental Magic.
- have Menta mages learn Cognitism through legitimate means, but not needing an MA.

The reasoning was:

- Cognitism is currently self-teachable for a reason; it is not difficult to grasp fully, and even if it is not fully grasped, you cannot powergame it as it only affects your character.
- Mental Magic is harder to grasp, and thus Cognants will have to get an MA for it.