Are Goblins or Humans smarter?

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Catarrh said:

Last I checked no official forum lore page states that uruks are required to be stupid.

 

Refer to the quotes and the established relationships in terms of intelligence.

 

O < U, H, G

O, U < G

G =< H

 

Therefore:

O < U < G =< H

 

And as such

 

U < H

 

Except if you establish that:

1. Goblins are smarter than humans

2. The aforementioned relation is larger or as large as the O, U < G relation.

 

Goblins generally exhibit heightened intelligence and advanced technological abilities when compared to their larger brethren.

 

You don't even need the Olog-Races relation established and can close out Ologs from the equation for easier comprehension.

 

According to the quote, U < G

 

Since, as per the general concensus on goblin-human relation, G =< H,

 

then U < G =< H

 

It's not that they have to be stupid, but as per lore definition, they are less intelligent than humans.

[Man of Respect 5471]

If goblins aren't smart, all cons will be heightened against them and natural selection would easily wipe them off the map. They lack intelligence, they lack strenght, what can the evolutionary process push into besides being enslaved or become dependant?

[Catarrh 720]

Just now, Medvekoma said:

 

Refer to the quotes and the established relationships in terms of intelligence.

 

O < U, H, G

O, U < G

G =< H

 

Therefore:

O < U < G =< H

 

And as such

 

U < H

 

Except if you establish that:

1. Goblins are smarter than humans

2. The aforementioned relation is larger or as large as the O, U < G relation.

 

Goblins generally exhibit heightened intelligence and advanced technological abilities when compared to their larger brethren.

 

You don't even need the Olog-Races relation established and can close out Ologs from the equation for easier comprehension.

 

According to the quote, U < G

 

Since, as per the general concensus on goblin-human relation, G =< H,

 

then U < G =< H

Except that you can type up all the little equations you want, and it still doesn't matter. People are allowed to play smart uruks, and that's how it is. Furthermore, the forum post you linked says exactly what the wiki says. Taken from the thread you linked: http://prnt.sc/d3i12d Yet again bringing me back to my statements above that assuming an uruk to be stupid is regarded in lore as a misconception. 

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Catarrh said:

Except that you can type up all the little equations you want, and it still doesn't matter. People are allowed to play smart uruks, and that's how it is. Furthermore, the forum post you linked says exactly what the wiki says. Taken from the thread you linked: http://prnt.sc/d3i12d Yet again bringing me back to my statements above that assuming an uruk to be stupid is regarded in lore as a misconception. 

 

That quote establishes no relationship between either the ork subraces or the major races.

 

It only states that they are often underestimated in intelligence. Which means that instead of U << H (what humans think), the relation is U < H.

 

Yes, people are allowed to play smart uruks, but those people should never ever say a word on generous dwarves, fertile elves, dwarves taller than 5' or 100+ year old humans. Because anybody playing an uruk that's generally smarter than the average human breaks the established lore I explained as form of pure mathematical deduction from quotes.

[Catarrh 720]

Just now, Medvekoma said:

Yes, people are allowed to play smart uruks, but those people should never ever say a word on generous dwarves, fertile elves, dwarves taller than 5' or 100+ year old humans. Because anybody playing an uruk that's generally smarter than the average human breaks the established lore I explained as form of pure mathematical deduction from quotes.

 Yes, in fact, they can, because the lore does not prohibit an orc from reaching such a level of intelligence. The lore does, however, prohibit fertile elves. 

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Catarrh said:

 Yes, in fact, they can, because the lore does not prohibit an orc from reaching such a level of intelligence. The lore does, however, prohibit fertile elves. 

 

Refer to the relations listed as to why lore forbids you from playing uruks that are smarter than humans. It's not made-up by me, it's based on deduction, and Occam's razor leaves the G ~ H relation in favour of the "Uruks are less smart than humans" statement.

 

Since either G < H, G = H and G >= H relations imply humans are /definitely/ smarter than Uruks, whereas only an extreme G >> H relation would imply that Uruks /may/ be smarter than humans.

 

So yes, lore subtly prohibits Uruks /smarter than/ humans.

 

Lore prohibits elfesses from conceiving children more than 50 years after last conception (if not first time), but provides no definite substance on infertility. You can count with a 5% conception chance, a 10% or even a 1% one. The only known relation is that when it comes to fertility, E < other races. In terms of such, seeing someone RP an Uruk almost as smart as a human, an elfess could easily RP an elf almost as fertile as a human. Since, to correct your statement, neither are obliged to go to extremities with statistically undefined racial qualities.

[Man of Respect 5471]

13 minutes ago, Medvekoma said:

 

Refer to the relations listed as to why lore forbids you from playing uruks that are smarter than humans. It's not made-up by me, it's based on deduction, and Occam's razor leaves the G ~ H relation in favour of the "Uruks are less smart than humans" statement.

 

Since either G < H, G = H and G >= H relations imply humans are /definitely/ smarter than Uruks, whereas only an extreme G >> H relation would imply that Uruks /may/ be smarter than humans.

 

So yes, lore subtly prohibits Uruks /smarter than/ humans.

 

Lore prohibits elfesses from conceiving children more than 50 years after last conception (if not first time), but provides no definite substance on infertility. You can count with a 5% conception chance, a 10% or even a 1% one. The only known relation is that when it comes to fertility, E < other races. In terms of such, seeing someone RP an Uruk almost as smart as a human, an elfess could easily RP an elf almost as fertile as a human. Since, to correct your statement, neither are obliged to go to extremities with statistically undefined racial qualities.

 

To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure that no orc was cursed with dumbness, god knows how the ologs came to life. Instead, they were cursed with ugliness, bloodlust and blablablah.

 

Of course a human would be smarter than orc in most subjects: Mathematic, language, arts, history, all the basic and more advanced ones, goblins go the other way around with their wonky machinery, that are bad but work (the charm of the goblins, i love it), yet, what if I educate an orc in a way that he's like an elf? YOU GUESSED IT RIGHT, he'll be as smart as a high elf, just like the other one whom had the same education.

 

To come to a conclusion, aka, tl;dr, orcs can be smarter than a high elf. I've never seen Iblees personally curse someone with stupidity. I hope that this breaks the cold ice. In other words . . .

LotC intelligence = Education and Culture

 

Should it be pointed out that there are thousands upon thousands ways of being intelligent, but an elf comming to me claiming that he's stronger and better with an axe "cos ive studied books im bettrrrr" would be bullshit (with all respect), as so would equal to the knowledge regarding skinning, behaviour of the animals, traps, weaponry. . .

 

Also, to come of think of something, an elf that had practiced with a rapier for 100 years from monday to sunday wouldn't eventually get tendinitis and bursitis on his shoulders? Orcs are overpowered. Dot.

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Man of respect said:

To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure that no orc was cursed with dumbness, god knows how the ologs came to life. Instead, they were cursed with ugliness, bloodlust and blablablah.

 

 

Assuming that the only negative racial qualities are derived from curses. Would your interpretation allow for elves that are stronger than most orcs and humans? They were never "cursed" with being frail. Humans were never cursed with anything but short lives, so they could technically be smarter, stronger, faster and wiser than orcs?

 

Just now, Man of respect said:

Of course a human would be smarter than orc in most subjects: Mathematic, language, arts, history, all the basic and more advanced ones, goblins go the other way around with their wonky machinery, that are bad but work (the charm of the goblins, i love it), yet, what if I educate an orc in a way that he's like an elf? YOU GUESSED IT RIGHT, he'll be as smart as a high elf, just like the other one whom had the same education.

 

Neither quotes / relations I mentioned refer to education / factual knowledge by general intelligence and capability. Naturally, humans will be better-educated than orks. I only provided deductive, mathematical reasoning as to why orcs /in general/ should be less capable of thought than humans.

 

Just now, Man of respect said:

To come to a conclusion, aka, tl;dr, orcs can be smarter than a high elf. I've never seen Iblees personally curse someone with stupidity. I hope that this breaks the cold ice. In other words . . .

LotC intelligence = Education and Culture

 

Intelligence isn't based on education and culture, education is based on education and culture is based on education. You talk of society's perception of the orcs, I talk of quotes from the orc page on comparison between subraces in general intelligence capabilities. Neither relations mention education, the goblin-uruk one strictly refers to "heightened intelligence and advanced technological capabilities".

 

Just now, Man of respect said:

Should it be pointed out that there are thousands upon thousands ways of being intelligent, but an elf comming to me claiming that he's stronger and better with an axe "cos ive studied books im bettrrrr" would be bullshit (with all respect), as so would equal to the knowledge regarding skinning, behaviour of the animals, traps, weaponry. . .

 

Why would it be bullshit? According to your definition of intelligence, it all depends on upbringing and education. Applying that to elves, a high elf training physique a lot could easily be stronger than an ork. Considering that a high elf could train their physique for 400-500 years peacefully.

 

But they aren't, because high-elves respect the established lore differences between races, unlike "smark orks".

 

1 minute ago, Man of respect said:

Also, to come of think of something, an elf that had practiced with a rapier for 100 years from monday to sunday wouldn't eventually get tendinitis and bursitis on his shoulders? Orcs are overpowered. Dot.

 

"I want to play an overpowered race without any disadvantages."

[Man of Respect 5471]

Just now, Medvekoma said:

snip

 

Sorry, but I'm not obliged to follow non-citated things.

 

But they aren't, because high-elves respect the established lore differences between races, unlike "smark orks".

 

Please, point out where this is written to be more of a lore-ish thing rather than a cultural thing. Thanks. I don't bother really bother if an elf is stronger than my orc, issues arouse when its stronger than an olog.

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Man of respect said:

Sorry, but I'm not obliged to follow non-citated things.

 

 

They were cited from:

"Goblins generally exhibit heightened intelligence and advanced technological abilities when compared to their larger brethren."

 

U < G

 

In cases of:

 

G < H -> U < G < H, therefore U << H

G =< H -> U < G =< H, therefore U << H

G = H -> U < G = H, therefore U < H

G >= H -> U ~ H <= G, most likely U <= H

G > H -> U ~ H < G, U ~ H relation unknown.

 

Since the only case without a definite human superiority in "intelligence and advanced technological abilities" has an outcome of unknown, it means it'd require more pretenses, therefore Occam's razor (and the apparent vote on this thread) leads us to conclude the other four resolutions are likely, and therefore the statement "Orcs are as smart as humans" is false. The statement "Some orcs may be as smart as some humans" may be true if you take the fourth case, if and only if Goblins are defined as "most goblins are smarter than humans".

 

Just now, Man of respect said:

Please, point out where this is written to be more of a lore-ish thing rather than a cultural thing. Thanks. I don't bother really bother if an elf is stronger than my orc, issues arouse when its stronger than an olog.

 

The very quote I cited. Full citation:

 

"Goblin

 

Orcs of the goblin bloodline are notably smaller than other Orcs, although on average larger than humans. Usually reaching from 4 feet to 6 feet, and not exceeding seven feet, they have lean, sinewy frames. It is rumored that the origins of the goblin bloodline began long ago, when Orcs intermingled with Elves and bore offspring. Goblins generally exhibit heightened intelligence and advanced technological abilities when compared to their larger brethren."

 

No culture or education mentioned. Sheer exhibition of heightened intelligence and advanced technological abilities.

 

Also raises the question whether goblins are infertile or not, but such isn't part of the current debate.

[Man of Respect 5471]

I'm so lost on these equations that I won't even bother looking at them, okay. I mean, feel free to make a feedback thread to dumbify orcs, which has been a lore aspect since, I don't know, six years? I mean, I wouldn't be willing to abruptly change my roleplay due to a feedback thread, but that's completely okay

 

"orcs should be dumb and heres why"

G < H -> U < G < H, therefore U << H

G =< H -> U < G =< H, therefore U << H

G = H -> U < G = H, therefore U < H

G >= H -> U ~ H <= G, most likely U <= H

G > H -> U ~ H < G, U ~ H relation unknown.

[Medvekoma 2073]

Just now, Man of respect said:

"orcs should be dumb and heres why"

 

 

Nowhere did I state such. I merely stated that they are less smart than humans in a comment that claimed them to be as smart, my reasoning behind such derived through mathematical logic.

 

1. Goblins are smarter than Uruks

2. Goblins are not smarter than humans

3. Because of #2, Humans are either smarter or just as smart as goblins

4. Because of #1 and #3, humans are smarter than Uruks.

[Smaw 2376]

Knowledge does not equate to intelligence, not in such broad terminology. 

 

Orcs are at least equally as intelligent as Humans, insofar as being capable of understanding concepts and intricacies if given the tools to do so. The basics of Orcish culture prevent many of them from being particularly studious, but this doesn't degrade their nature ability to deduce and understand things.

 

Shamanism in particular takes considerable intelligence to understand and utilise, and has been a prominent aspect of Orcish culture for many years. This in itself shows how capable Orcs are of learning when they have the motivation and the means.

 

Also, Goblins are capable of understanding more complex things, which would put them above most Humans. If a Goblin were to be raised in a different environment and had the ability to suppress their bloodlust, he or she would excel.

[ScreamingDingo 20568]

idk after seeing a band of them at an event yesterday just skullbash their faces into magical seals and wards. It gives off the impression that current orcs may be brain dead.

[Man of Respect 5471]

45 minutes ago, GrimReaper98 said:

idk after seeing a band of them at an event yesterday just skullbash their faces into magical seals and wards. It gives off the impression that current orcs may be brain dead.

 

guis we have been blessd with honor lets run away plbttttttttttttt