Clerical Wards - Feedback Required

[Fitermon 668]

May be repeating some ideas already presented, but the issue right now is compared to all other forms of wards, such as voidal, clerical wards do a few things others don't...

 

1. Prohibits players from entering areas without being instantly called out or ganged up against, as opposed to just preventing their magic.

 

2. Doesn't need a power source, and seems to function just fine without one. This leaves no way whatsoever to destroy one aside from using your

obviously dark spookmagic and getting killed in the process as long as somebody semi-competent with a sharp stick is around in a 32 block range when you do this.

 

3. Effectively gets rid of any form of actual antagonism in most cases. Yes, some people do repeat the same pointless, crappy villainy day in and day out, but that's what villain blacklists are for, not roleplay wards.

 

 

Now, how do you actually go about solving this issue? There's a few ways, some better than others, and some that can be used in conjunction.

 

1. As said before, make the ward effect the magic dark beings use. Should a shade or necromancer be able to walk through a holy ward? Probably. Should they be able to shoot necrotic death mist amber tendrils across them? Nope. This can even make combat roleplay more interesting, as there's an ever present barrier that can mark the loss of the dark mage's tools if they need to flee, such as running out of a building or city gate.

 

2. Give the wards a required visible crystal or gem of the sorts that can be destroyed by physical means, making it less required for one to openly use their super secret spookmists just to make the area approachable. Can't find any crystals or gems to act as battery for the ward? Then either the nation making one is too incompetent of a nation to reap such a reward as more safety, or the single person trying to get one simply doesn't get to get one.

 

3. Don't keep them as literal firebarriers. Regular magical wards don't even hurt atronachs, beings made out of magic, that bad. To be fair those guys technically don't feel anything but point is having to shriek at the top of your lungs to enter a city or even a bar in some cases such as Sutica is frankly ridiculous.

 

4. Limit how many wards can be made. Right now Sutica has three entrances, two warded. However, in the city there is a tavern, which has its own independent ward. What's to prevent, say, the cleric capital of the realm from just making a row of wards to practically be invulnerable?

 

5. Deal with the spooks on your own, don't rely on three gold blocks and signs to do your job in roleplay. Can some fights be lost? Yes, but that's a reality of the server. Good does not always win, nor does evil, so it should not be that one of these is favored heavily because of a few signs and six to ten emotes. Repetitive, boring, hindering villains? Report them to the GMs. Don't punish the group for the actions of the few.

 

6. Remember that at the end of the day, Holy Mages & the "Good Guys" will almost always be in the upper hand in every day situations, at least in terms of being able to use their abilities and not risk having their character be known as Spooklord Darkness KillOnSight. If a holy mage gets caught entering a regular city, they'll usually be let go, or in some more religious places possibly imprisoned, and rarely killed merely for being holy mages. If a dark mage was caught, however, the character can easily be marked as Kill on Sight in the city, have the word spread like wildfire, and have a character be rendered near useless, especially ones that are unable to inherently disguise themselves, (shades, necromancers, soul puppeters, etc...) 

 

Anyways, just a few things to keep in mind with Holy Wards and all. 

[Angmarzku 1251]

Keep on topic.

[Gone 869]

● What type of roleplay does wards create and stop? (I have heard people say wards stop RP so I want to know what type of RP wards create and stop). 

Since create was listed first I'll mention it first. Ideally I'd say that wards create rp where people can try to remove them but due to lack of people knowing things such as how strong the ward is, how much it'd take to remove the ward, and then having to contact whoever it was that made the ward... Well things don't work out that way often. For someone wanting to create rp by attacking a ward they'd have to first wait for a time where the creator of the ward is either online or at least available to be messaged on the forums or Skype. That alone can obviously make things messy and inconvenient. Plus there's always the worry that people will hear over something like Skype that an attempt is being made and suddenly flock to it. Thus most players would rather not deal with the whole process even if their character would naturally try to ruin the ward.

As for walking through the ward and adding a small bit of rp there again we run into issues. How much pain is "immense"? Are we talking fall to the ground pain? Flinch as you're walking pain? Does it hurt certain creatures more or less? Does armor have any change on it? Even if the pain was something a being could continue to walk through if they didn't emote some sort of reaction like at least flinching they'll get yelled at for powergaming. If they do however make a reaction emote then suddenly everyone in the area stops what they were doing and is staring down the being who'll instantly get attacked. Again, this could make rp but due to confusion, the risk of it turning into a mess, and the fact that spook players do get tired of constant fighting, most people feel that it's simply not worth it. 

 

As for stopping rp obviously as mentioned above there are opportunities that wards could create but are simply seen as not being worth it for the above reasons. The existence of the ward itself stops its own possible rp. From there beings like shades for example can't enter without issues. This means no possible recruiting of people in that warded area. No tainting land, objects, or people in that town. Heck the beings affected by the ward can't even go shopping or just talk to people. So not only does this completely complicate or outright block all rp for those select beings but also prevents them from providing rp to other people. Which honestly makes places incredibly dull... For those who didn't read what I said above and will respond with "why not just walk through the ward" I've seen someone merely cough near a ward and suddenly have a guard staring them down. The only time a spook can walk through a ward without having everyone and their mother suddenly attacking them for flinching is if no one is there.

 

● Positive feedback of current system - Does it provide a clear understanding of how wards work? What do you like about wards?

Honestly the only thing I really like about wards is that in theory they seem interesting. In theory they shouldn't stop rp, in theory they should add a little twist to an area. They even stand as a big neon sign of "holy people frequent this area" which can alert spooks to the possibility of their enemies being around. However just because something seems good in theory doesn't mean it will be good in practice.

 

● Negative feedback of current system - What are the flaws you see with this system? Does it appear one sided, etc?

The system is currently extremely one sided mostly because its so complicated and confusing that spooks don't wanna deal with it. Size however is also a major issue, a ward the size of a small house already sounds like that's a bit too large and unneeded but the fact that they then get even larger? Why would one ever need to be larger than an entryway? Or large enough to cover a small group of people? 

Spooks who want to actually interact with a ward have to coordinate with the creator of it, at least in messages, which timezones can make difficult. The spooks either would need to have the creator there, able to answer questions about what the various attacks do to the ward as it's happening, or completely plan out their every move and send it like a script to the creator of the ward who can then let them know when they've done enough damage to it.

Spooks who try to walk through a ward either will be complained about for "powergaming" if those nearby don't feel they reacted enough and/or attacked instantly by everyone in the emote area. 

Heck, wards that are down don't even have the signs removed so from a distance things appear as if the ward is still up. If someone actually walks up to examine the signs and see if the ward is down or not but then walks away then anyone who saw will instantly assume "evil creature, must kill" so that isn't even worth it at times. 

 

● Any recommendations on how wards should be/operate -Do not say remove. I refuse to acknowledge such as feedback.

If wards stick around I have a few suggestions. 

Ideally I'd say have them work like normal wards work, instead of harming people simply block magic. Perhaps a holy ward could stop dark magic from being used in a oh... 5 block radius? Possibly larger but not an entire town size. This would mean important areas in a town such as the gate, shrines, leader houses, hospitals, etc would each get their own ward. The entire town couldn't be protected since that'd be just a ridiculous drain of the holy energies but important sections that leaders feel need protected from dark casters could thus be protected. Spooks get more openings for rp without instantly being outed and dying while non-spooks still get some protection. Win win. Holy folk could even then argue with leaders if they feel a request would be a waste of their energy for example if a leader wanted a library warded but the clerics already put up five other wards in the town and don't feel the library is worth the drain of putting a sixth one up. 

I'd also recommend that instead of a line of signs stuck on the ground that only one be placed with a link to a forum thread that explains how wards works. What it does, how powerful it is, etc. This thread could be a guide to wards in general with then specific wards explained in comments or something along those lines if needed. Saves space, provides more information, and looks nicer.

I'd also suggest having a cap on how many wards an individual can create. That way someone doesn't do something like use a week to create 50 individual wards, simply have the creator report their creation to superiors so that a chart can be made keeping track of who has what running. An alternative would be increasing recharge time so people are limited by how much energy they're willing to risk giving up.

 

As Fuffy already suggested instead of wards create special weapons or other items for individuals like guards to use. This would remove the need for wards while also still giving areas an advantage against spooks.

As Jistuma already suggested perhaps a type of ward that prevents taint from spreading until it can be cleared up. Though I'd suggest alongside one for tainted land perhaps one for found tainted items as well? 

As Ski already suggested change the effect on dark beings so that only those who properly understood what the wards did would understand that a spook went through. This would be rather interesting and add a bit of a risk for spooks who want to walk in. Heck could even go as far to say that certain spook types have different reactions with the ward to make things even more varied and open other possibilities. 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

7 minutes ago, Fitermon said:

3. Effectively gets rid of any form of actual antagonism in most cases. Yes, some people do repeat the same pointless, crappy villainy day in and day out, but that's what villain blacklists are for, not roleplay wards.

Actually it was never really one individual coming in every day for us. It was the group as a whole. It was usually different spooks alternating day by day, not the same person, but we were still needing to deal with the same conflict way too much. You may be individuals but RPly all spooks are the same to us #notallspooks

 

So in that case a blacklist wouldn't work, nor do I want to spend all my time trying to get people in trouble anyways when I can just slap up some protection to avoid it all.

 

Of course this is a moot point since spooks ARENT being way too frequent in the wood elves anymore so we dont charge our ward. Long as spooks arent being a overly frequent chore to deal with then we'll be happy to keep the ward down

[Fitermon 668]

3 minutes ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Actually it was never really one individual coming in every day for us. It was the group as a whole. It was usually different spooks alternating day by day, not the same person, but we were still needing to deal with the same conflict way too much. You may be individuals but RPly all spooks are the same to us #notallspooks

 

So in that case a blacklist wouldn't work, nor do I want to spend all my time trying to get people in trouble anyways when I can just slap up some protection to avoid it all.

 

Of course this is a moot point since spooks ARENT being way too frequent in the wood elves anymore so we dont charge our ward. Long as spooks arent being a overly frequent chore to deal with then we'll be happy to keep the ward down

It does solve the group of bad villains for ONE city, but still leaves the same group able to keep on doing the same crap elsewhere. If the rules of the server are breached, we should use the rules and OOC systems to remedy it, not roleplay spookwards. The welves are at least reasonable with theirs.

[Bvie 1754]

1 minute ago, 吳憾戰士14 said:

Actually it was never really one individual coming in every day for us. It was the group as a whole. It was usually different spooks alternating day by day, not the same person, but we were still needing to deal with the same conflict way too much. You may be individuals but RPly all spooks are the same to us #notallspooks

 

So in that case a blacklist wouldn't work, nor do I want to spend all my time trying to get people in trouble anyways when I can just slap up some protection to avoid it all.

 

Of course this is a moot point since spooks ARENT being way too frequent in the wood elves anymore so we dont charge our ward. Long as spooks arent being a overly frequent chore to deal with then we'll be happy to keep the ward down

Indeed.

 

RP reasons created the wards. 

Sutica was attacked, 4 times one day. We put up wards. 

The tavern was attacked recently by a dark entity and students wanted to practice a skill they've learned recently. They put up a ward at tavern-goers request.

 

Getting screamed at by other clerics and threatened disconnection because I didn't ward my city or vassals enough. Wards go up.

 

 

I'd prefer it be more like consecrated ground, where dark entities are weakened or handicapped in some way while on it. Dark magic is also weakened or something. But, that's for a larger discussion. 

 

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

I also want to bring up that this problem tends to solve itself.

 

Wards require constant recharging.

 

So,

 

If a settlement is being constantly attacked or trespassed by spooks then they will expend the time and effort into constantly charging their wards.

 

If a settlement only has to deal with spooks on a semi infrequent basis then they probably wont expend the time and effort into constantly charging their wards because it isnt necessary.

 

What settlements on Axios have bothered to put up wards in the last few months? I think just the Welves and Sutica, two places where spooks attacked/intruded on at a greater rate than other cities.

 

Clerical wards as is are already only practical if a settlement is being attacked more than is reasonable. If a settlement is relatively more undisturbed then wards simply aren't worth the effort.

 

Now, if you like you can make the recharge time shorter to solidify this system, or you can make it so that wards burn through a spook's disguise. But, ultimately, if you dont want to encounter a ward then don't make yourself a constant, primary problem for a settlement.

 

And now for your daily dose of passive aggressive snark:

 

BREAKING NEWS:

Neighbourhood that experiences high rates of burglary begins purchasing anti-burglary systems. Burglars protest for their rights.

• "The security system is unfair because it specifically keeps out burglars and no one else! How were we supposed to know that people had the means to address a specific and prominent problem?"

MORE AT 7:

Neighbourhood that has low rates of burglary does not purchase anti-burglary security system.

 

 

[drfate786 1690]

Just now, Toodles78 said:

That's actually the Suticans right now-- the wood elves don't have any.

 

Anyway, yeah. Cleric wards don't really do much towards creating RP; in my experience, dark creatures are more likely to just go around it or avoid it entirely due to a cleric doing some emotes at the ground. It's also difficult to tell how powerful they are, how long they'll last, and how they can be broken-- a rewrite would be great for that.

 

Clerical wards should be powered by a battery, this battery should be an exposed crystal that can be corrupted or shattered by any mortal. Also, the undead need living servants, if you don't have living people to do your bidding you can't possibly destroy a holy ward, let alone engage in a long term conflict with the ascended. Infiltration is the key to good RP, if you wish to be a true villain you must be able to create unsuspecting terrors. 

[Kaelan 1918]

From my interpretation of light, it would naturally cause pain and damage to any dark being. With the current lore, light naturally seeks out taint and destroys it. It's a natural property of the light of an aengul of purity who's very mission is to seek out and destroy any and all impure and tainted beings to create it's envision of a world of purity.

 

It's not just wards that would hurt a dark being. If a cleric tried to heal a dark being via priest healing, the dark being would feel pain. When a cleric heals a tainted person the person feels pain as the taint is destroyed. A war cleric has magic to attack and kill dark beings. All via light.

So it makes sense that when a tainted being crosses a barrier of concentrated light of Tahariae the Aengul of Purity, they feel pain as they do so as they feel light's natural property of seeking out taint...

 

The one thing I agree with is the need for a physical object as a source of power. This comes in the source of gems imbued with light. As it has been explained to me by a cleric that gems can indeed act as batteries for clerical light.

 

And Linandria's past two wards have such. The last ward we had on the end of the bridge was powered by a crystal in a very obvious place. And as a result of it, the ward was destroyed by Fi magic.

 

The current Linandria ward (which is down btw) has a crystal powering it.

 

An example of such in a very secret location that serves as a power source for the ward that currently encompasses the gate.

 

As a guard in Linandria, I can't possibly describe to you the annoyance I felt when it was time to fight yet another spook for the sixth time that week. 

I believe at one point we were called in by the druids to help defend them from some spooks, and then returned to find spooks attacking our city!

 

It's an RP solution to an RP problem. 

 

I don't agree with the limiting of the number of wards. Instead I think a cooldown of how often they can be created would suit it better. 

 

I think a large problem here is there is a lot of gray area when it comes to wards. The size of them, how thick they are, what exactly they affect, and finally how long they last for. I think by clearing this gray area up and implementing the need for a gem who's size is relative to the size of the ward is much better than just removing the magic outright.

[Archbishop 1784]

4 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

I believe at one point we were called in by the druids to help defend them from some spooks, and then returned to find spooks attacking our city!

Thats strategy. Lure the guards away from the city and attack the civilians. But if clerics can have wards that can block dark users from passing, dark users should have wards that block holy magic users from passing also.

[JCQuiinn 168]

3 minutes ago, A Moongazer said:

Thats strategy. Lure the guards away from the city and attack the civilians. But if clerics can have wards that can block dark users from passing, dark users should have wards that block holy magic users from passing also.

Well the Sunless sanctum kills anyone who enters it and I've been informed (though I've no idea if this is true or not) that it's apparently super effective against holy users. I'd also emphasize that to my understanding holy wards work against dark 'beings', not the users of dark magic.

[Kaelan 1918]

Just now, A Moongazer said:

Thats strategy. Lure the guards away from the city and attack the civilians. But if clerics can have wards that can block dark users from passing, dark users should have wards that block holy magic users from passing also.

 

I think it was less strategy and more convenience for that one spook who decided to antag the welf city while everyone was away dealing with a group of spooks and then found himself encompassed by the party of Sirame returning to the city.

 

I think you need to reread Farryn's original post there. Dark beings can still physically pass the barrier. They just feel pain caused by the light.

If you really want to get in, pick a time when no one is around and plop yourself inside of the city. Then just stay there if you want to be an antag that badly.

 

This argument is the same as telling a city to keep it's gates open 24/7. "I and a group of my bandit friends want to antagonize a city! But the gate is shut! I am OOCly being blocked from entering a city that has a problem with raiders RPly and has RPly responded by shutting their gate!" 

 

But the difference between a metal gate and a cleric ward is that a gate is physical. And a cleric ward is not. Anyone can pass through the ward, it's just the effects of passing through one is different.

[DrakeHaze. 2524]

Spooks attacking a settlement count as a raid. An OOC anti-raid day ward is stronger than a clerical one. I fail to see a problem with Clerical wards, I only see a problem with raids based off what I've been reading. Go in as a spook group, you have 1 hour to do your thing then after that move onto another place. Solo raid a settlement or standing outside shouting? Raid baiting.

Also, if you are not enjoying the Rp provided by a villain you have the right to message them and cuss them out ask them to leave and do this another time. Nobody is exempt from villainy rules or raid rules, they are in place for a reason. Shouldn't be a problem, put your foot down.

As for Clerical Wards themselves.. I wouldn't so much as call them a Ward but more of an invisible barrier. Whether they instantly murder dark beings, burn them with flashlights or make them feel pain is not much of a concern as the area of affect they have. Should they cover a city? Sure, with the right effort put into it and a few additions. A pillar in the center of the town, above ground and crystals around the perimeter of said town. These crystals are fragile, a crack can splinter the connection to whatever deity and open a hole in the barrier. The area around the pillar is the safest, for example the citizens can escape and stand around it while guards deal with the spooks and what not. If all crystals have been cracked/destroyed the pillar also goes down as to prevent people from just sitting around it without worry. Can crystals be attacked from outside? Yea sure, though dark magic will obviously have less of an affect unless it is strong enough to pierce the veil and damage it. Arrows? Rocks? Maybe. With the idea I put forward I believe it to be easier to understand and to attack/protect. This is all off the top of my head, I won't go into anymore detail. Hit me up if you do want to know more or want to steal my idea, I'd appreciate it.

tl;dr read it you mook, I put effort into writing dribble

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

1 minute ago, Blad said:

Spooks attacking a settlement count as a raid. An OOC anti-raid day ward is stronger than a clerical one.

Nah usually they came in groups of 1 or 2 which do not count as a raid.

[Fitermon 668]

1 hour ago, JCQuiinn said:

Well the Sunless sanctum kills anyone who enters it and I've been informed (though I've no idea if this is true or not) that it's apparently super effective against holy users. I'd also emphasize that to my understanding holy wards work against dark 'beings', not the users of dark magic.

 

Regular people don't hang around the Sunless Sanctum, hardly anybody does at all. You're not prohibiting "normal" roleplay by having that ward, just as I'd argue having a similar ward a the "Good Guy Base" would be fair enough.