[✗] [Amendment] Voidal Feats - Mental Effects

[_AzureLexi 773]

Purpose

This amendment aims to remove all mentions of real-world mental illnesses and disorders within the voidal feat lore, replacing them with more vague symptoms if and when possible, due to the various uncomfortable issues they present.

• Portrayal of commonly stigmatized or misunderstood mental illnesses/disorders should be handled with the utmost care, and met with a watchful eye from the community if they are leaning into common misconceptions or stereotypes. The voidal feats, however, outright suggest for the average player to portray disorders as commonly stigmatized/misunderstood as OCD and Borderline Personality Disorder.
• All negative effects of the voidal feats are, in a literal sense, an otherworldly corruption. When in the real world mental disorders are often ascribed to demonic possession and the like, it leads to an uncomfortable in-world validation of such ableism for several stigmatized disorders to be literally caused by power-seeking individuals tampering with otherworldly forces.
• The explicit symptoms of the voidal feats’ mental effects are plenty to provide a unique psychological profile and flavor to each voidal feat, that do not directly mirror any mental disorders from the real world. Having optional real-world disorders feels like an afterthought, and one that dilutes the identity of the voidal feats' mental consequences.

 

---

 

Voidal Eminence

Mental Effects

Old

Spoiler

Those warped by Eminence will undergo a variety of possible mental changes, and may suffer from the following:

 

Selfishness! It is something all users will develop.

Susceptible to taking advantage, using, and manipulating others for your own advantage. Sometimes others can have use in your pursuit for more.

Constant craving for power. It’s in best interest to seek it through any means necessary. (Political, personal, etc..) Most Eminence users develop Megalomania.

Various “negative” complexes are common. Someone may develop a “hero complex” which makes them tackle harder work that they later brag about in search of recognition. Other complexes may include:

God complex

Superiority complex

Martyr complex

Ignorance, and arrogance. Opinions aren’t swayed easily. Descendants with this feat value their personal views, and take little consideration in hearing the opinions of others. 

Disregard for the feelings of others. Indifference! 

Impulsive decisions are made at times, often when proven wrong. Users may feel intense urges to perform daring acts out of the blue.

Narcissism, and Nihilism may develop.

Sociopathic tendencies. Descendants affected by Eminence lack the ability to notice/understand the feelings of others. 

Urges to show off, or gloat about the “best parts” of one’s self. 

The delusion that your top qualities are the best of the best. 

Substance abuse for a “greater” feeling.

Perfectionism 

An extreme sense of pride.

Different triggers, or events may cause ego trips (an event where you may feel admired, or noticed for something and your only goal is to increase this feeling.)

 

Various mental disorders may develop as well: 

Minor, to extreme cases of Depression

Bipolar Disorder

Binge eating disorders

OCD

New

Spoiler

Those warped by Eminence will undergo a variety of possible mental changes, and may suffer from the following:

 

Selfishness! It is something all users will develop.

Susceptible to taking advantage, using, and manipulating others for your own advantage. Sometimes others can have use in your pursuit for more.

Constant craving for power. It’s in best interest to seek it through any means necessary. (Political, personal, etc..) Most Eminence users develop Megalomania.

Various “negative” complexes are common. Someone may develop a “hero complex” which makes them tackle harder work that they later brag about in search of recognition. Other complexes may include:

God complex

Superiority complex

Martyr complex

Ignorance, and arrogance. Opinions aren’t swayed easily. Descendants with this feat value their personal views, and take little consideration in hearing the opinions of others. 

Disregard for the feelings of others. Indifference! 

Impulsive decisions are made at times, often when proven wrong. Users may feel intense urges to perform daring acts out of the blue.

Narcissism, and Nihilism may develop.

Sociopathic tendencies. Absence of empathy. Descendants affected by Eminence lack the ability to notice/understand the feelings of others. 

Urges to show off, or gloat about the “best parts” of one’s self. 

The delusion that your top qualities are the best of the best. 

Substance abuse for a “greater” feeling.

Perfectionism 

An extreme sense of pride.

Different triggers, or events may cause ego trips (an event where you may feel admired, or noticed for something and your only goal is to increase this feeling.)

Minor, to extreme cases of Depression

 

Various mental disorders may develop as well: 

Minor, to extreme cases of Depression

Bipolar Disorder

Binge eating disorders

OCD

 

Arcane Scions

Mental Effects

Old

Spoiler

[...]

With so, in total, a Scion may have the following changes in psyche;

- Horrid indecisiveness, the inability to make decisions, particularly under pressure; exclusive with rashness

- Rash, primal impulsiveness, the inability of foresight and forethought; exclusive with indecisiveness

- Ego death, the loss of persona and character

- Dysphoria, the uncertainty of whether thoughts are logical or emotional

- Easily impressionable, the inability to discern right and wrong, to make opinions of their own

- Though they may not be, a Scion may develop a multitude of personality disorders that associate directly with their response to the amended connection - most notably, Borderline - Personality Disorder, Schizotypal Personality Disorder, and Dependent Personality Disorder.

New

Spoiler

[...]

With so, in total, a Scion may have the following changes in psyche;

- Horrid indecisiveness, the inability to make decisions, particularly under pressure; exclusive with rashness

- Rash, primal impulsiveness, the inability of foresight and forethought; exclusive with indecisiveness

- Ego death, the loss of persona and character

- Dysphoria, the uncertainty of whether thoughts are logical or emotional

- Easily impressionable, the inability to discern right and wrong, to make opinions of their own

- Though they may not be, a Scion may develop a multitude of personality disorders that associate directly with their response to the amended connection - most notably, Borderline - Personality Disorder, Schizotypal Personality Disorder, and Dependent Personality Disorder.

 

Veil Watchers

Mental Effects

Old

Spoiler

[...]

And so, the Psyche of a Veil Watcher may be warped in the following ways:

-Hallucinations, primarily Visual and Auditory (Every Veil Watcher is subject to this).

-Delusions and general Psychosis

-Paranoia

-Sleep Paralysis

-Generalized Anxiety

-Self Destructive Behaviors as a result of the above.

 

A Veil Watcher might develop the following disorders on top of the hallucinations:

-Panic Disorder

-Specific and severe phobias

-Separation Anxiety

-Insomnia

-Narcolepsy

-Bipolar Disorder

New

Spoiler

[...]

And so, the Psyche of a Veil Watcher may be warped in the following ways:

-Hallucinations, primarily Visual and Auditory (Every Veil Watcher is subject to this).

-Delusions and general Psychosis

-Paranoia

-Sleep Paralysis

-Generalized Anxiety

-Self Destructive Behaviors as a result of the above.

 

A Veil Watcher might develop the following disorders on top of the hallucinations:

-Panic Disorder

-Specific and severe phobias

-Separation Anxiety

-Insomnia

-Narcolepsy

-Bipolar Disorder

 

Edited August 30, 2024 by _AzureLexi

[AuJy 273]

Let me be the first to say that I understand why some people may want something like this to be an alteration to the lore. But, for the sake of argument, I have to say this feels more like pointing at a non-problem and turning it into one.

 

I get it, some people really do struggle with these ailments and we dont want to shove it in people's faces. But—if we're being real, people are just going to take these vague things and when they teach new people they are going to say "Basically, you'll start having sociopathic tendencies" regardless of the way we try to word it.

 

I respect and appreciate that you took the time to really consider this and try to make a change, I just feel it is unnecessary.

[King_Kunuk 3023]

You can also mostly ignore most of these changes. I believe on the lore pages it says 'a void mage MAY develop the following:".

this means they are suggested personality traits that a player character can help use to emulate what kind of style of shit wizard they are going for. Like Aujy says, seems redundant to make amendments for such small lines in lore that is almost over 5 years old now.

[MeteorDragon 3441]

While I do see the intention of why this is being made, I don't believe it's wholly needed. I know I wouldn't be doing any sort of justice trying to explain my point as I can't get the words out right and I don't wish to be misunderstood. Instead, I will mention that there are many other magics also in LOTC that utilize medical terminology and mention mental illnesses. Additionally, as Kunuk said, many of these, and in other magics, fall under the "may" category. If someone doesn't feel they can portray it right, then they don't have to pick that side effect

I'll leave off my thoughts with this post from a few years ago by Unwillingly:

 

[Tav 4339]

idk i think these changes are pretty cool. i'd rather not have to suffer seeing someone emoting cringe shit about an irl mental illness/disorder that they haven't got a single clue about. it's like when people emote stuttering or DID .. yeah it exists but just watching you try to emote it when it's clear you have no clue is hurting me within my soul.

also i feel like the "... well we just ignore those anyway!" comments are kind've counter intuitive? if you see that it's harmful to roleplay and avoidable by most of the community then why are you against the amendment that is planning to remove said things 

[Morigung-oog 5697]

I understand where this is coming from, but I've seen nobody thus far, even people who have mental health conditions mentioned in these posts, express any kind of discomfort relating to the wording of psychological changes on magics. For the most part, we understand that this is a fantasy setting and have the common decency to avoid harmful stereotypes when it comes to roleplaying characters with mental health issues.

 

Idrm whether this goes through or not though. 

 

 

[Unwillingly 18133]

cringe centrist take here but it's not a big deal whether or not these changes are made. at the end of the day these changes are so minor I doubt they'll actually impact anybodys RP should they be implemented, but I also don't see any actual harm in their current state

 

I think it's important to remember the context with which these disorders are being portrayed before trying to conflate it to real world ableism. most players on here are well attuned to storytelling and fiction and are capable of differentiating RP elements from real life ones, so the likelihood of a few lines in minecraft lore contributing to irl discrimination I find extremely unlikely unless you're interacting with someone who was already an all-weather bigot beforehand

 

it's fine, life goes on

[Pancho 4197]

As stated prior, I think these changes are simply unnecessary to make. They don't add to the server lore or help build the story. The current lore as it stands acts as a base for characters to justify cults and have strange tendencies. These changes are not needed to the server and are acting as an unnecessary form of censorship.

Edited: -1

[graveyard_bones 213]

I'm going to put my two cents in here.
 

I haven't once seen someone portray a mental illness and/or disorder wrong in LOTC. There are a multitude of symptoms that can be more prevalent than others, everyone experiences mental illness and/or disorders differently. 

 

Why not make this argument with dark magics like mysticism for example where one's character is a pseudo-schizophrenic? What about naz? Blood magic too?

 

There is absolutely zero harm as long as proper research and understanding is noticed and implemented correctly.

 

If you see someone being ableist, then report them.

 

-1

[_AzureLexi 773]

1 hour ago, AuJy said:

Let me be the first to say that I understand why some people may want something like this to be an alteration to the lore. But, for the sake of argument, I have to say this feels more like pointing at a non-problem and turning it into one.

 

I get it, some people really do struggle with this ailments and we dont want to shove it in people's faces. But—if we're being real, people are just going to take this vague things and when they teach new people they are going to say "Basically, you'll start having sociopathic tendencies" regardless of the way we try to word it.

 

I respect and appreciate that you took the time to really consider this and try to make a change, I just feel it is unnecessary.

Individuals using terms like "sociopathic tendencies" (I wouldn't be surprised if people already decribe Eminence as "It makes you a psychopath"), is not the same gravity of "sociopathic tendencies" being written into the lore. But that specific word change was a very minor thing, paired with other parts of the amendment should it be passed.

 

56 minutes ago, King_Kunuk said:

You can also mostly ignore most of these changes. I believe on the lore pages it says 'a void mage MAY develop the following:".

this means they are suggested personality traits that a player character can help use to emulate what kind of style of shit wizard they are going for. Like Aujy says, seems redundant to make amendments for such small lines in lore that is almost over 5 years old now.

The amendment was written around the issues of additional implications, as outlined in Purpose. If the lore mandated personality disorders, that'd be a hugely different problem.

 

55 minutes ago, MeteorDragon said:

While I do see the intention of why this is being made, I don't believe it's wholly needed. I know I wouldn't be doing any sort of justice trying to explain my point as I can't get the words out right and I don't wish to be misunderstood. Instead, I will mention that there are many other magics also in LOTC that utilize medical terminology and mention mental illnesses. Additionally, as Kunuk said, many of these, and in other magics, fall under the "may" category. If someone doesn't feel they can portray it right, then they don't have to pick that side effect

I'll leave off my thoughts with this post from a few years ago by Unwillingly:

[Snip]

If a precedent is set here, I would like to see other real-world mental illnesses phased out, in order to put emphasis on their respective "miscellaneous fantasy disorders" (Seers' having anxiety symptoms that behave uniquely to their form of magic, voistalker Second Mind, everything else in the voidal feats, etc.)

 

6 minutes ago, Pancho said:

As stated prior, I think these changes are simply unnecessary to make. They don't add to the server lore or help build the story. The current lore as it stands acts as a base for characters to justify cults and have strange tendencies. These changes are not needed to the server and are acting as an unnecessary form of censorship.

Removing mentions of voidal feats causing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder isn't "censorship". If anything, it places more emphasis on the aforementioned "miscellaneous fantasy disorder" aspects that are not directly parallel to real-world disorders. Voidal Eminents trade their empathy and human connection for power. Voidal Artificers may become obsessed with their own ability of creation, or gain an overwhelming need to help everyone around them. 

Also, using real-world personality disorders and mental illnesses should never be solely as a base for "cults and strange tendencies".

 

1 minute ago, graveyard_bones said:

I'm going to put my two cents in here.
 

I haven't once seen someone portray a mental illness and/or disorder wrong in LOTC. There are a multitude of symptoms that can be more prevalent than others, everyone experiences mental illness and/or disorders differently. I have never once looked at a character with a voidal feat and thought "wow, they're ableist for portraying x, y, and z wrong" because everyone I have met portrays it incredibly well. 

 

If this change is added, then you're ultimately removing characters with excellent portrayal  - you are essentially turning their character upside down and slapping them on the back while saying "you're better now!". Not only that, this will cause issues with portraying these disorders and illnesses outside of voidal feats. It's creating a problem that has never been a problem in the first place.

[1/2]

The amendment wouldn't necessarily need to "cure" existing characters.

But, I haven't been around here too long (despite what my forum join date says). If players are getting consistently high quality and interesting portrayals from the real-world ailments listed in the voidal feats, more power to them. I wrote this amendment with the intention of cleaning up a potentially icky bit of the lore, from the perspective of having seen mental illnesses be portrayed in a lot of messed up and harmful ways as "consequences" or "side-effects". But, if there is a strong precedent of characters acquiring real-world ailments from the voidal feats, and going on to portray it well and with good storytelling, then this amendment should be denied.

 

4 minutes ago, graveyard_bones said:

Why not make this argument with dark magics like mysticism for example where one's character is a pseudo-schizophrenic? What about naz?

 

There is absolutely zero harm as long as proper research and understanding is noticed and implemented correctly.

 

If you see someone being ableist, then report them.

I like Mysticism a lot, actually! And the Eminent's selfishness, Voidstalker's second mind, Naz's malices, precisely because they are all distinctly fantasy. Having literal additional entities of spirits living in your head that you draw upon for power isn't a real-world disorder, nor does it draw any parallels to one. It's the difference between "hollywood schizophrenia", where characters textually have schizophrenia and behave in ways ways that perpetuate incorrect and harmful stereotypes, and a character portraying those same symptoms for a fictional reason.

[PrimnyaQuorum 4008]

Like others, I could take or leave this change - I get the intent, but I'd prefer in general if the mental effects in general were less specific (You have X condition) and instead describes the effects it intends to have alter the character - something some magics already do (Naztherak's Malices, the general descriptions under Voidal Feat's mental effects) and some don't. To me, it's much easier to take a general change and apply it to my character then spending time trying to figure out what X condition actually causes in people, and then figuring out how my character fits into that. 

 

At the same time, I think people currently treat mental effects less as "Oh, my character is now Depressed/Bipolar/whatever" and more as they fit the effects to their character so its still enjoyable to play whilst not minimizing/meme'ing the effects. I think this change just reflects what people currently do, though the reasoning is a bit shaky - I can't say I've heard of anyone going out of their way to misrepresent a actual mental disorder through their character on LoTC, and instead are either just underread on the subject or not trying to do a specific disorder, but one of the many generic effects.  

 

I think so long as your not replacing the specific disorders with more forgiving, broad effects, its a fine change that just reflects how people already do things primarily. I do disagree with some people who consider the mental effects as option - any change a piece of lore inflicts upon a character isn't really optional, the variety of choices just allows a variety of archtypes to show up (I.E A Eminent may consider themselves godlike, or incapable of failure, or hold a view that nothing really matters - but they must hold something.) 

[_AzureLexi 773]

8 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

[Snip]

This was actually one of the thought processes I had as well! I had a few different angles for this change. Potential misportrayal, which from what I've heard, is not actually a huge risk on LotC. Questionable implications, which on it's own wouldn't warrant an amendment. And finally that it is just kinda a boring afterthought. A list of potential symptoms is far more actionable in RP, than "here's a disorder look it up in the DSM" (Which yes, I'm aware they are still optional. Most symptoms of voidal feats are an option select anyway.)

You have brought to mind, maybe some of what is being written out and "de-medicalized" could be folded into other parts of the symptoms? Like, for instance, replacing OCD with some subset of it's symptoms (which importantly, would make it no longer OCD, and instead just a potential symtom of "voidal eminent syndrome" so-to-speak). Just a random thought, it probably wouldn't be necessary. Voidal eminents are not lacking in compelling options for its mental effects.

Edited August 30, 2024 by _AzureLexi

[PrimnyaQuorum 4008]

1 minute ago, _AzureLexi said:

This was actually one of the thought processes I had as well! I had a few different angles for this change. Potential misportrayal, which from what I've heard, is not actually a huge risk on LotC. Questionable implications, which on it's own wouldn't warrant an amendment. And finally that it is just kinda a boring afterthought. A list of potential symptoms is far more actionable in RP, than "here's a disorder look it up in the DSM" (Which yes, I'm aware they are still optional. Most symptoms of voidal feats are an option select anyway.)

You have brought to mind, maybe some of what is being written out and "de-medicalized" could be folded into other parts of the symptoms? Like, for instance, replacing OCD with some subset of it's symptoms (which importantly, would make it no longer OCD, and instead just a potential symtom of "voidal eminent syndrome" so-to-speak). Just a random thought, it probably wouldn't be necessary. Voidal eminents are not lacking in compelling options for its mental effects.

 

To me, anything that gives a player flexibility in how they approach something that afflicts their character is always going to be better then a flat "You have X condition" statement. The point of any mental/physical affect is not to totally dominate that character's defining traits, but exist alongside them - how they change the character, and how they adapt is the whole point, to me. In that, it's always better to have a broad description of how something might effect a character, which the player then reads and adjusts to fit their character - as you gave the example of, listing the effects of OCD instead of just saying "OCD" gives me, up front, a better idea of what somethings actually going to do to my character. 

 

As other people and yourself have said, I don't think I've seen anyone intentionally get a mental disorder wrong - but as a personal preference I still prefer things that describe a change generally instead of ultra-specific disorders that I now have to research to find out what its actually doing. Overall I think its a neat clarification and approach but its not resolving a larger issue, like the bits of Voidal Lore that are already unclear/give conflicting redlines - doesn't take away from this idea, though.

[xDK 1205]

+1 This change is based for a number of reasons.

 

1. For one thing, using real world mental health disorders as an explanation in a fantasy setting runs a real risk of reinforcing that these medical disorders are a “consequence” of your actions, which is incorrect and can be a form of systemic stigmatization that could lead to a real inner stigma of an individual.

 

2. We tend to also associate these conditions with a form of “corruption” for using voidal magic, this could lead to the idea that having these real world medical disorders are "wrong", which is also a form of systemic stigmatization.

 

3. Another thing is that, it is putting an ethical responsibility on players to correctly portray these medical conditions, since the players may create misinformation around that portrayal.

 

I don't have a problem with the downsides/consequences of these magics, and it should be less about removing those downsides and more about not using real world medical diagnoses to explain the potential consequences of these magics.

[Cheese 8898]

Just out of curiosity, why wasn’t voidstalking involved in this? That feat has some pretty severe mental affects

 

Edit because after thinking a little more I have some more points:

 

- All magics and feats have mental effects, because drawing power from an unnatural source has consequences. In real life taking steroids or other hard drugs can have terrible effects on one’s physical and mental health. A not exactly fair comparison, of course, but you get the gist. Why only focus on voidal feats, and not voidal magic itself? Or any other magic, FA, or CA

- I’m a psychology major. Hi. Not all mental disorders are portrayed in the same way. A lot of symptoms overlap, and people won’t experience the same ones. Additionally, many mental disorders are comorbid, so it would not be uncommon or unheard of for people with one disorder or mental illness to have multiple from the lists. Players can sometimes incorrectly portray mental illnesses, but sometimes they play them really well and just portray different symptoms in their character than someone else.

- Lowk trying to avoid anyone playing a mentally ill character sounds like a way to bubble wrap roleplay. Not talking about them or not having them in roleplay will, contrary to many people’s beliefs, make the stigma worse. In fact, if we see how these mental illnesses affect people in roleplay, whether or not they’re derived from magic, they can educate people! I know I’ve put a lot of research into my characters’ mental struggles.

 

All in all, I think having severe mental illnesses as consequences to taking up a magic is good, not just undiagnosable symptoms; it can develop characters or make them less heroic and “perfect” 2d characters. Just my 2 cents

Edited August 30, 2024 by Cheese