[✗] [Amendment] Ghouls

[LordCrowe 173]

Old Redline [From Physical Description Redlines]:
➣ Ghoul are not affected by mortal diseases or poison. They do not require breathing, eating, or sleep. However, unlike darkstalkers who can wander underwater, a Ghoul is unable to do so for a long time. Ghoul are only able to stay underwater for (10) emotes before their bones start drifting away, leading to their death. 

Changed Redline:

➣ Ghoul are not affected by mortal diseases or poison. They do not require breathing, eating, or sleep. However, unlike darkstalkers who can wander underwater freely, a Ghoul has trouble doing so. Ghouls submerged in water are weakened, similar to Voidal Weakness, while underwater and for two (2) emotes after exiting the water. Underwater is defined as needing to swim to move, if your feet touch the ground and your head is above water it doesn't count.

Reasoning:
It was always weird to me that basically every other type of undead could replicate that one scene from Curse of the Black Pearl (you know the one), but ghouls specifically couldn't. It felt like someone ran out of weakness ideas and started throwing things at a wall until it stuck, especially with the ridiculous 10 emote count and no narrative time addition. Still, a discussion with my friend @TheOnlyTubbrought up some reasonable points about some sort of water weakness making sense, which turned into this compromise of a rewrite.

[Agy 756]

If I remember correctly, I was told that it was actually a weakness that was added because Ghouls would keep using the sea, lakes and whatever as an ever-reliable escape route in CRP scenarios aand that apparently was a whole thing.

 

Personally I don't really see the point, not like there's much of a difference between being able to kill a ghoul (IF you manage that to begin with mind you) and it escaping by sinking to the bottom of the sea (Also it's just really badass and fun, like come on!)

[Mestvin 947]

2 minutes ago, Agy said:

If I remember correctly, I was told that it was actually a weakness that was added because Ghouls would keep using the sea, lakes and whatever as an ever-reliable escape route in CRP scenarios aand that apparently was a whole thing.

 

Personally I don't really see the point, not like there's much of a difference between being able to kill a ghoul and it escaping by sinking to the bottom of the sea.

Again then i saw ghost personas hiding at the bottom of the lake to avoid crp.

[Agy 756]

2 minutes ago, Mestvin said:

Again then i saw ghost personas hiding at the bottom of the lake to avoid crp.

 

What like mechanically running into the water...? Because.. Yeah that'd just be reaally silly

[Frostdrop1 1843]

25 minutes ago, Agy said:

What like mechanically running into the water...? Because.. Yeah that'd just be reaally silly

It isn't silly. Its good to have a range of things which work as weaknesses and benefits in roleplay - even if mechanically it's awkward. Unlike ghouls, ghosts benefit greatly from water as it protects them from the effects of sunlight though they also just sink to the bottom. It also does work as a viable escape route given how utterly weak the CA is (for good reason). It makes more sense for the to be flighty and combat avoidant - they aren't balanced or designed for taking on conflict and so hiding/running fits the general profile and vibe described for them: to avoid it where possible (unless they're a poltergeist).

Avoiding combat via water is valid as a ghost, but as very few other things.

On a word with the change though, I think its valid to have this water weakness affect the ghoul's combat ability in a more solid way a bit like how the metals were re-vamped to have more present CRP effects. An after (x) time you die is just kind of a lame cop-out weakness imo. I'm not sure why it ought to be like voidal weakness though, versus it just slowing or being generally disruptive to the ghoul so that they can still use whatever weapon/armour set they currently have without being ruined.

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

Void weak is a cop out crutch for lore writers who’s can’t coherently describe weaknesses. You’d be better of stating what being in water does to their ability to wield weapons and move, otherwise good change.

[LordCrowe 173]

26 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Void weak is a cop out crutch for lore writers who’s can’t coherently describe weaknesses. You’d be better of stating what being in water does to their ability to wield weapons and move, otherwise good change.

In this case it was less a matter of lacking vocabulary as it was lacking space.

I'm pretty sure Redlines are supposed to be concise, and this one already looks almost like a paragraph as it is, so I didn't want to add another full sentence of describing things on top of that.

[femurlord 3751]

No

[Agy 756]

2 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

It isn't silly. Its good to have a range of things which work as weaknesses and benefits in roleplay - even if mechanically it's awkward. Unlike ghouls, ghosts benefit greatly from water as it protects them from the effects of sunlight though they also just sink to the bottom. It also does work as a viable escape route given how utterly weak the CA is (for good reason). It makes more sense for the to be flighty and combat avoidant - they aren't balanced or designed for taking on conflict and so hiding/running fits the general profile and vibe described for them: to avoid it where possible (unless they're a poltergeist).

Avoiding combat via water is valid as a ghost, but as very few other things.

Oh! Okay very much my bad in that case..! I suppose I was imagining a wildly different and more exaggerated scenario, liike somewhere around a year ago being told that in the past things like Ghosts had actual status effects like proper mineman water-breathing

 

Whiiich caused them to jump into the bottom of a lake to in the event of PvP or something like that, very funny stuff. 

Suffice to say, thanks for the response! : >

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

3 hours ago, LordCrowe said:

In this case it was less a matter of lacking vocabulary as it was lacking space.

I'm pretty sure Redlines are supposed to be concise, and this one already looks almost like a paragraph as it is, so I didn't want to add another full sentence of describing things on top of that.

 

Voidal Weakness has 3 Tiers - if you do the worst it can be, then a Ghoul walking underwater after 2 emotes would be effectively unable to move, fight, sprint, or be useful in any manner because all of its weapons and armor would be prohibitively heavy. For creatures that don't really have muscles or stamina in the sense a living human might, its non-sensical. Just say they move slower underwater.

[Security_ 2287]

ghouls are the toilet paper CA dissolving in water. werewolf was onto something.

 

if you want to be under water as a ghoul ask @Aesopianto return the Nexus necrolyte buff, it was always very well balanced :)

[Turbo_Dog 3567]

It is a fair weakness. After all it relies on being in an area where you can even be submerged in water in the first place. And second off it is a weaker cadaver held together by less magic than other undead. And finally, 10 emotes is very generous giving a ghoul time to surface or otherwise since it does say underwater for 10 emotes so not like they can’t just go up on land for a hot minute and restart their timer 

[Agy 756]

3 hours ago, Turbo_Dog said:

 And finally, 10 emotes is very generous giving a ghoul time to surface or otherwise since it does say underwater for 10 emotes so not like they can’t just go up on land for a hot minute and restart their timer 

Yeah, now that you mention it... 10 turns of being able to CRP while in water is ABSURDLY long, like pretty sure that goes into hours worth of irl time. the absolute majority of fights do not even come close to surpassing 10 total turns from what I've seen.

[Islamadon 9158]

This lore has been denied.

LT voted and did not want. We'd rather them keep their current interaction with Water.