The state of PVP on LotC | The Perspective of a Warlord turned NL

[ibraheemc2000 2965]

I agree with most besides lowering the armor on cavalry, and i would like to see crossbows still.

but over all tide has really stated all that needs to be said. I think this is important. Especially when crp default is a thing... I am about to log off, and forced to sit through a 4 hour combat rp session.

Those who are ready to initiate combat, should be ready to crp for hours. Those who do not want to sit through 4 hours of combat rp, should have the right to do pvp at the risk of either side's skill.

Lotc is a wonderful place to build a story, but as what I LOVE what tide mentioned... LOTC IS NOT MY RL, I have responsibilities. I want to engage in roleplay, I want to carry my rp items, and not a entire 13 piece set of pvp gear.

It also is good to state that, also I have seen, much to my distaste, but people being OOC mindful in regarding to handing people gear seeing how hard it is to get it, sure, makes sense, BUT the ooc mindfulness is "They have a bandit persona who has been banditing us." That is a different persona, They should not have to swear real life allegiance to get something to do combat to serve you, regardless of such.

Simple pvp kits are needed, though I do enjoy the variety and style pvp can impact us right now, It is not suited for the state of the server as it stands now.

I WILL STATE HOWEVER, I do want to see(but don't see) is actual knights, ya know... the bad ass guys in armor who made their entire profession and life dedicated to turning people to mist and mush. Yeah, I want to see them have strong gear logically and a peasant not with a full set of armor.

I WANT to see a more realistic approach of majority of armies being filled with spears, not swords, and balanced in armor.

Which i think the server was going for. BUT. I do not see this.. I see to much complexity in 20 diff weapons.

IF THE SERVER, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wanted to keep this type of combat. They need to make some form of skills like blacksmithing and so forth, THAT DOESNT MAKE THE GAME A GRINDING HELL.(Damn near impossible, but Im hopeful) to make it so the average player can make decent pvp kits, while knights or kings have access to bad ass blacksmiths who can get them better gear, due to such wealth. With that said..... I don't think the server is ready for it, unless it genuinely wants this. Which I don't think it does.


In short... Do what tide says, he knows whats up.

[Cupper 61]

I have only experienced few PVP scenarios on the server so far, but a lot of them have been grand with 50+vs50+ people on both sides. 

The PVP system currently in the server has lead to there being strategy involved in war which I think is really cool. As of the recent battle at numendil, The side that I was on used the in game PVP system of the buckler, the lance, and the netherite armor slowness to our advantage in a cool way. The side on numendil wanted to push out of the city and attack the raiders before they entered, so they decided to send the slow netherite people out first. Since they are slow the enemy reacted which is exactly what we wanted, and then we sent the calavry people out with the lances to inflict heavy damage onto the raiders that decided to try and oppose the slow, netherite people being used as "bait." There was counterplay to this such as the pikes (which is cool), but the strategy involved allowed the people on the numendil side to win the battle in a very one sided moment. This "one sided" win was not really abusing anything at all, except for the raiders own mistakes. The raiders did not have to push out and attack the netherite force, they could have fallen back a bit, used the ranged weapons on the server, or waited, but they did not. The Cavalry force anticipated an attack from bows though, so instead of instantly having lances at the ready or other weapons they instead held bucklers out as they pushed out. The bucklers would have counterplayed the ranged weapons which would have given the Cavalry enough time to reach the backline of the raiders. The buckler of course could have been counterplayed with a force of pikes as well. If the raiders saw the cavalry riding out with bucklers, they could have quickly responded with pikes since the cavalry users would of had to swap to a longsword/lance and were expecting arrows instead of a CQC engagement. All of these mindgames and strategy all stem from the In-game plugin.

This use of strategy using the in game tools in PVP was literally only possible with the in-game plugin. If it was default minecraft PVP there would be no slow "bait" force of netherite soldiers, there would be no cavalry charge with lances, there would be no counterplay involved with pikes, it just wouldn't exist. It was really cool to see this MASSIVE big scale battle take place and have REAL strategy involved. The strategy determined who came out as winners.

I like the in game PVP plugin as it is really refreshing to play with and see as a lot of minecraft servers just have something default that only results in the "best clickers" winning or just some weird laggy scenarios. There is strategy, counterplay, and fun that is had with this in-game system even though it is "half-baked"
 
As a "recent" player to LOTC I really like it and instead of completely removing it, I wish that it gets expanded upon and gives use to these "useless" weapons/tools. The weapons/tools that work feel good and their purpose is noticeable, its just a few other ones that need some polishing.

[Jentos 9422]

While I believe we should pursue easier access to PVP and amend it, I also am of a very strong opinion that the removal of CRP default would lead to a far lesser quality of RP over an extended period of time, instead of a more corrective and adaptive approach to CRP within the community. It will also have the effect of reducing acts of villainy and conflicts - albeit, regardless of quality. I am far more interested in a possibly far more story oriented form of conflict than one reduced to clicking - which falls into a particular philosophy of RP that often lacks the nuance of CRP (though of course, not the headache of a poor encounter). I still firmly believe in the benefits of CRP despite the presence of negative examples. I nonetheless believe and enjoy PVP and believe it nonetheless can be adopted with more success for some medium to large conflicts between players, as well as when both parties are in agreement as to its use instead of CRP. 

[TomFunks 756]

1 hour ago, blesseuropa said:

It'd be good if PVP gear could be stored in another inventory, to allow more classical Roleplay centric players to be able to carry their roleplay items...

I think there'd be an opportunity in the next iteration of the PVP plugin to use Bundles for storing PVP items (or RP items). I thought there was something like this being made for herb pouches because of how much space they take up but I'm not sure if it was ever implemented/removed.

 

1 hour ago, Tide1 said:

I do not believe that you should be forcing my players, our players, any player on this server, to endure the power-gaming of Spook#40594 at 3 AM in the morning.

Defender default has always seemed more fair but I would commiserate with the villain RPers who take the time to grind for their ST items or learn their spells. If they want a chance to use them and then PVP is called instantly, it takes away a lot of the reason for dynamic villainy. That being said, the defender should always have the ability to choose how they want to spend their time and given how long CRPs can last I would always lean towards allowing the guards to simply call PVP but I do think the plight of the darkspawn should be ignored altogether.
 

1 hour ago, Tide1 said:

The lone player cannot obtain leather on their own. Whatever socio-economic situation caused by this, that the Administration may or may not think is beneficial to the server, does not hold a candle to the disappointment of seeing a knight, a darkstalker, or any foe d20 on the spot, or run in vain, because they couldn’t afford to carry pvp-gear.

Although I think it may be a bit too difficult presently to attain a set of Netherite, if the PVP system is simplified to Iron/Chain, then I don't mind there being a difficult barrier to entry. Leather farming itself is strangely tedious due to the breeding limitations which I think should be tweaked. However, the difficulty in attaining kits adds a reason to join a guard force to have ease of access for materials and bolsters large groups working together rather than allowing any one person being able to independently farm sets of armor for themselves.
 

1 hour ago, Seva said:

I think there could be so much cool roleplay focused around supply lines, actual battle fortifications, etc. etc. that gets lost through mechanical Wars.

I don't believe that war or large-scale battles should ever be dictated by CRP simply because of the cost of time. I do see the benefit of maybe including some roleplay for small-scale skirmishes but even those would take quite a long time. Taking a recent example of having successfully rallied Numendil roleplayers who (mostly) do not enjoy PVP to go rescue raid against Druscans (who were realistically on average better individual PVPers than my rally), you do not necessarily need to have a squad of veteran PVPers to succeed in these types of conflicts.



Lastly, I think that the current PVP plugin is enjoyable though could be tweaked and patched more often to add dynamic layers to conflict. The Warhammer and Mace need buffs or need to be removed, the same goes for the Arbalest or regular Shield (not Buckler). I agree that Cavalry seems to be in a healthy state right now. I think Shortbows/Crossbows are still viable though the Longbow is definitely superior for defense. I agree with the suggestion of having Chain Armor be used for Cavalry and that Netherite Armor would be removed due to being too cumbersome.

There was talk of a food/cooking plugin being added some time ago I believe which seems like it'd be interesting to include into the PVP plugin. Having consumables be able to add status effects (paired with drawbacks) would add a layer to the current system that could be very interesting as long as it was a tempered approach that did not make combat orbit around the gimmick entirely.

[The Tough Guy 4319]

As a pvper guy from bilgewater, I think the current system is incredibly enjoyable and would hate to see it go back to just iron with a few select other options as Tide suggests, but only under a circumstance that for some reason isn't currently being applied.

If the current surge pvp system could get any updates and changes during the map based off of feedback, to make certain items less shit and other items less busted that'd be great.

The only changes that happened if I recall correctly is the lance nerf (thank god) and the javelin changes. 

If there's no ambition to adjust/tweak things more then once during a two year map period, sticking to simplicity in 5/6 unique weapons in total and two armour sets where the only difference is less armour for cav is probably the best way.

[sam33497 7356]

My main contention with PVP right now is how it interacts with LWC and other security plugins. There are not sufficient tools in the plugin to actually beat the limits of defenses allowed within the rules - I would encourage a way to infinitely break down iron doors raid-only, this is the simplest thing I can imagine fixing this issue. Each PVP becomes a psychological slog fest of baiting the enemy into a wipe in a situation where they don't get to fight back dynamically. Shouldn't we be skirmishing around the site of battle instead of edging a gate trap and sitting outside of a fort for an hour until the enemy gets impatient enough to come out?

[Frostdrop1 1843]

Very frankly, I don't come to a roleplay server which is primarily text-based to click and hurt my finger so PVP discussion is a poor fit for me. I like to be immersed in my character, not be made to reflect on how my ping is not the absolute best, how I can't click super fast and how I just feel bad that I can't do it as good as the next guy. I do not spent hours or days or weeks invested into an arc to devolve into drivel with PVP where both sides just make it up for clout, post their PVP goonfest pictures of this one guy I know and got (look at me I'm so cool), vaguepost and insult each other. The best thing to come out of such things are the memes and most of those are about the narrative. I have sunk countless hours into PVP that I never enjoyed, for it to be either:
a) Too laggy to be meaningful
b) Too stally to be meaningful
c) Realise numbers simply matter more, the end
If I could avoid all PVP on the server, I would. I am, however, simply forced to deal with it and the baggage that comes along with it. One cannot simply avoid PVP and the innate effect it has on how the server works. Ultimately, when RP makes my character feel bad that's great. PVP makes me feel bad for being skillfully inferior and simply not enjoying PVP regardless of win or loss. In essance, making it a complete waste of my time that I need to just perpetually worry about because there is no good outcome for me. Great. This is not to say I do not enjoy PVP games at all - minecraft just isn't it mechanically for me.

Ultimately, there is literally no way to level the playing field so as a Level 1 NPC in combat my PVP concerns are pretty simple:
a) I want to access PVP stuff without scarificing my RP gear that I prefer to have
b) I don't want to deal with that attitude of goons. It is, quite frankly, the most off-putting thing about PVP to me
c) I want one armour set and one weapon
d) I want it to be over fast
e) I frankly don't want to be involved in consequences for something I'm 100% getting dragged into by someone else in the first place. Having to pop or have a roleplay death, or any kind of rp aftermath for you not roleplaying with me is entirely unattractive. I will legitimately sit through a 3 hour CRP slog over a 10 second PVP fight all because I would rather have the reason of loss

f) I would prefer important RP things to always be entirely divorced from PVP (E.g. hard and soft PK clauses, loss of MARTs, even acknowledgable character death [unless agreed] etc)

Does CRP suck sometimes? Yes. A lot of the time, really. People simply don't take hits like they should and I'm also usually on the rough end of CRP for over-hyping injuries dealt - but I enjoy losing that way and that makes all the difference. People can't handle what is "reasonable" in CRP. Your greatsword cannot move as fast a dagger when the opponent was prepared, and you are not. Sorry, no. And, frankly, moderation is not great when moderation what is reasonable either - in CRP or PVP - unless it is brazenly wrong. They only moderate what is directly in front of them and do not take into account the backlog of the fight. They change and twist rules on-the-fly and make some weird frankenstein combo between CRP and PVP when relevant. Honestly, it's very odd moderation from my perspective. This puts CRP in this really stupid conundrum where no one trusts mods and to beat powergaming you have to powergame back! 
CRP rules should be improved as should the general way in which moderation actually handle fights. They also need to stop silently changing rules and leaving people confused. 

TL;DR I'm entirely in CRP camp owing to getting zero enjoyment from PVP no matter the circumstances and anything I do care about is really only to make it less of a drag to co-exist with.






 

[Baccaaa 490]

I agree with some of these but I kind of like some of the choices of gear that we have currently. I feel perhaps such a system could be enchansed rather than fully dumbened down to just a sword and iron gear, i.e perhaps actually giving a use to maces or the shield item itself, or maybe more melee range to a thing like a spear.

 

Another thing I like is the extended player health we posses which is very nice in my opinion and would rather never see it return to 10 hearts, not just for pvp but I honestly feel I'd die to jumping around more often lol.

 

One thing I would like to see changed is the toll PvP gear takes on inventory space. How am I supposed to carry so many things for PvP which my for example mage cant even use in CRP? (i.e, literally every pvp gear) Atleast when I play a non-magickal persona I can justify the inventory space it takes by being able to also use it in CRP.

But yeah can we please have extra inventory just for PvP loot? It is honestly terrible to have to sacrifice half your inventory on a kit you might use.

 

Alas my only issue with people wanting PvP defender default is that guards get defender default even if they attack you first in their city or territory, so if it becomes PvP default, even one guard would be able to do so. I would rather not be forced by someone else into PvP during an inconvinient time and for it to be the default standard. Personally I tend to not attack other players even on my magickal personas, so maybe I'm a bit biased to say that the defender should indeed have the option to PvP default, though honestly I feel it is just moral to have an alternative to 6 hours of powerplay and mod-calling, which sadly will be the case almost always. But yet again I'd rather not get forced by a singular guard to PvP and for it to push my roleplay narrative, not only would it be abused but it would also lead to illogical scenarios that I need not mention.

 

tl:;dr: pvp default good as long as it doesnt mix with guards, or rather, 1 guard, being considered defender upon attacking you in their land and thus forcing you to PvP in defense.

 

Perhaps find a middle ground of sorts?

[TaraJess 2848]

Local leather farmer here. Please for the love of God if you must require so much leather for everything fix the animal cool downs so I can actually breed the cows more than once a day. DO YOU ALL REALLY ENJOY SEEING ME BEG IN THE STREETS LIKE A PEASANT FOR LEATHER???? 

[Smmer 2441]

Do you know how terrible the disconnect is between staff and player? players forced to spend hours writing our elaborate detailed posts that never get the attention they deserve because moderation refuses to hold community meetings in the main discord to discuss plans, future changes, allow questions from the playerbase to discuss and dissect. I hope this fate doesn’t befall the post because 

 

I WANT PVP CHANGES, START LISTENING TO YOUR COMMUNITY !

 

We shouldn’t need x amount of people to justify looking into and giving it an overhaul, these are enough voices and opinions each one should feel like a push towards an investigation into a possible overhaul because clearly they have suggestions and experiences both for change and against it.

 

Host a community meeting for once in moderations life, how is it i’ve been begging for one since I was on mod team and we have never had one. Why even bother having an event space in the main discord if ur never gonna utilize it. Give players a chance to speak to you directly, give them a chance to debate. Trust me it’s alot better than having to go through paragraph posts and loose interest half way only to shrug it off say you’ll come back later to it and then suddenly months go by with no resolve. 

[KamikazeReaper 457]

i dont understand your rage on getting leather, as a mostly solo kind of a guy, i have never had the issue getting my hands on leather. Sure i mostly had to pay for it but meh getting leather is not that hard

1 hour ago, TaraJess said:

Local leather farmer here. Please for the love of God if you must require so much leather for everything fix the animal cool downs so I can actually breed the cows more than once a day. DO YOU ALL REALLY ENJOY SEEING ME BEG IN THE STREETS LIKE A PEASANT FOR LEATHER???? 

if you time it correctly you can breed cows like 3-4 times a day

[Xarkly 17299]

22 minutes ago, KamikazeReaper said:

i dont understand your rage on getting leather, as a mostly solo kind of a guy, i have never had the issue getting my hands on leather. Sure i mostly had to pay for it but meh getting leather is not that hard

if you time it correctly you can breed cows like 3-4 times a day

 

Some people don't have the liberty to go on at the correct intervals and at such frequency. This is OK for a non-essential resource, but all armour is locked behind a massive grind wall.

 

Also, for everyone else's clarity, I don't think the Mod Team (as a whole; a couple of individuals may have been roped into testing and design at one stage or another) has ever had a hand in designing PvP gear systems and economy. Squarely a Tech Team thing.

[SimonItorp 124]

I'm still, to this day, not a fan of PvP on a roleplay server. 

[Baccaaa 490]

@KamikazeReaperServer restarts have become way scarcer for some reason, I think due to server improvement on some things, which made it require less restarts. With uptime reaching 40 hours once recently it makes getting leather / horses harder. Imo I think its just a technicality the one that made animal breeding plugin hadnt considered before to be an issue...

[LoTC's Next Top Model 1626]

18 hours ago, Tide1 said:

I needn’t remind anyone that the Kingdom of Norland almost died as a consequence of two powergamers failing to kill each other through some 4 hours of CRP with extensive Mod and ST oversight.

 

i genuinely agree with most everything you said but this is whack bro lmao.

there was no 4 hours of crp that ended in king of norland being executed, there was like a twenty second pvp raid of like 100 dudes chasing like five and then rp executions lmao. no st forced you to do it and crp was not involved with any choice on whether or not to kill a nation over a shield.