A Discussion On The High Elven War Claim

[Supremacy 3361]

As is evidenced by the thread "War Claim On Haelun'or" there has been a proposed war claim on Haelun'or. That thread descended into mindless arguments and so this thread shall serve as a place for involved parties to discuss. It is noteworthy that nothing herein is intended to offend and is reported in the way which I see it. Fundamentally there are some critical issues to address from both sides notably:

 

• Casus Belli from Odolf Mali'bama as to his attack on Haelun'or.
• Debate regarding if such an attack can qualify as a surprise attack at all.
• Debate regarding the use of magic, given the attack is on a city with a population of around 53% mages.

First I shall present what forms my own view of the opinion and one I think that many individuals, notably high elf role players, share. First we shall address Casus Belli:

 

As it stands I am unaware of a single high elf from Haelun'or which has interacted with "Odolf". It appears at least to me there is no reasonable provocation to attack Haelun'or particularly given he has never interacted with a Haelun'or high elf to establish any form of antagonistic personal stance. It is evidenced by these threads here, here and here that the original goal of his organisation was to remove the high elven influence in Malinor— An influence totally separate from the existence and operation of Haelun'or itself. So ultimately my confusion comes to why anyone would attack a city without provocation for a goal which wasn't what he established for himself long ago. It may be that his goal has changed but one doesn't risk life and limb for a random cause.

 

I may be wrong and he may have some astounding story of precisely why he wishes to risk his own life and spend his coin on a war— but as far as I have seen, the reasoning is limited.

 

As I have seen from bgnsxxy one of his reasons was to "bring RP to a desolate group of elves". I will note the population of Haelun'or is greater than that of the Kharajyr and Halflings combined. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more high elves than orcs.

 

Ultimately it is noteworthy I can't think of any provocation.

 

Secondly we shall examine surprise attacks as I see them: To start off, to take a city you can't surprise attack. You would need siege weaponry to get over the high elven walls. If this is a pillage attack, which would still realistically require Malinor's consent or arrival by sea (which would be seen in advance because of the nature of sailing). It can be concluded you can't surprise-siege a city or surprise pillage without permission. It is also noteworthy that if one intends to hire an army of mercenaries and bring 3 nations you would be noticed.

 

Thirdly we shall examine the issue of magic. Magic is a part of LotC and shouldn't be ignored, but it also has no plugin representation so we are left with 2 basic choices along with some higher level compromises:

• Wait for the magic plugin (could be a while)
• Exclude mages (absurdly imbalanced when it comes to attacking Haelun'or)

A higher level suggestion (and one I would be partial to) is the following:

 

• All individuals line up before the battle to be counted. In accordance to magic-rule 15 individuals from each side are randomly killed until a 'mage' would be equal footing to a soldier (wherein a mage is allowed to fight in iron armor). So, for a T5 mage, randomly 4 individuals get smiled thrown into lava and can not fight. The battle then commences with no magic, but magic having been 'represented'. It is awkward, but a way which fits with how magic works that provides a solution.

Finally we shall examine the idea that was reportedly common in the old thread: That Haelun'or pointlessly aggravates nations and hides behind a lack of a magic plugin. This is simply not true. Notably the humans are relatively positive in terms of relations with Haelun'or. Malinor is at the same state of guarded-friendship it has always been at. The dwarves and high elves have not interacted properly since Elysium, due to the high elven wish not to incite their ire. The only group with somewhat of a reason to be antagonistic to the high elves are the orcs— who realistically are only like such because they failed a raid and had to run away. The high elves don't provoke nations intentionally, such a claim is unfounded as 99% of the time they mind their own business.

 

Individuals commenting on this thread are reminded it is for intelligent debate only and that pointless rage is to be avoided.

[Aislin 4354]

Whatever happened to RP? :P

[Supremacy 3361]

One can not RP out magic becoming redundant, thus it must be dealt with. Ultimately war claims are a 2 way street and the first one should have been met with discussion before it was posted by the OP. Thus this action was deemed appropriate by myself as there was a failure to communicate.

 

The last thread was locked before an opinion could be formed.

 

I will also note that this is merely a thread for thought and that an agreed upon warclaim, if there is to be one, has not yet been formed. The last one found itself to be one sided and we must discuss to make an amicable solution for both parties.

[Nefarious Aus Shitpost 891]

Give each mage over tier 2 an additional life per tier.

 

T2 -> 2 lives

T3 -> 3 lives

etc, etc for the battle

 

There, you have your force multiplier.

[Supremacy 3361]

T3 would actually be one life. A tier 3 mage is only slightly more powerful than a fellow in armour.

 

But again the issue would involve having people returning along with missing parts after death. It would become too difficult to monitor.

[CommunistSpy 441]

Mages can use combat brews, non mages cannot.

 

There!

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

If someone is going to warclaim a city that has a large population of advanced mages they should have the patience to wait for the magic plugin to make this RP to not look entirely stupid having mages suddenly unable to use magic because of an OOC issue.

[Supremacy 3361]

A combat brew is about as balanced as an elephant on one leg. And yes, Kais, I would agree with you. That being said the plugin will take some time and evidently Bignsxxy does not wish to wait. While we could simply say no to the warclaim, given it is the defenders choice to accept a war claim, I would prefer to allow dynamic RP to happen. We simply have to see if we can find a way.

[ĔṀĔŔĨĨČĶ 519]

Perhaps the attacking force has to use lower tier gear? Like chainmail instead of Iron, or Stone weapons instead of Iron.

[CommunistSpy 441]

A combat brew is about as balanced as an elephant on one leg.

Looks pretty balanced to me!

[Supremacy 3361]

Well played sir. It is an idea, though I don't think it solves the problem.

 

[Swgrclan 2682]

Perhaps the High-Elven mages attending the battle can be lended the Magic Plugin until the tussle has subsided? 

[Supremacy 3361]

There is a magic plugin but it is broken and uncommon. As in, it simply isn't balanced whatsoever. That and many subtypes simply are not represented by it. Realistically my preferred course of action is to wait for a magic plugin, but that isn't always the greatest choice.

[darth sithlord 306]

Why not just do it yolo you only live once gotta live in the moment #pvp yolo

[Lego XBOX 915]

As I PMed the creator of the war claim, I fail to see how they are going to siege the city arriving by boat, much less how they can make the attack a surprise. I sent these pictures to demonstrate my point.

 

Legend

Blue Ladder - Possible to scale the walls with a ladder.

Blue Ladder + Yellow Squiggle - Unstable terrain to setup ladder, thus having a high chance the ladder falls.

Blue Ladder + Red Bar - Impossible to setup a ladder to scale the walls with.
 

Large Hollow Blue Arrow - Possible access point.

Lerge Hollow Blue Arrow + Yellow Triangle - Steep access point which may be hard to host ladders up. 

Large Hollow Blue Arrow + Red Bar - Impossible access point.

 

Large Hollow Red Arrow - Possible access route to the Enclave.

Double Half-arrow + Red Bar - Unauthorised access route.

Red Star - Suitable landing area on the Haelun'or shores.

 

Red Arrow - Possible sea route to the Enclave's shore.

Yellow Big Star - Large suitable port.

Yellow Small Star - Small suitable port.

 

 

Here are the pictures.

 

http://imgur.com/a/ub2hH