A Discussion On The High Elven War Claim

[Nefarious Aus Shitpost 891]

Why? There have been an assortment of large-scale sneak attacks throughout history.

The Battle of Teutoburg forest, for one.

 

[Lego XBOX 915]

Drazker, you can't possibly think of using grappling hooks with armour on.

 

Grappling hooks do make quite a bit of noise when hitting stone.

 

The coastal walls are up really steep mountains, and the ground just at their base is just as steep, there are barely any suitable ladder placing points. Refer to the pictures I posted.

 

From a longboat, you would be unable to reach the top of the walls without a sort of ballista.

[Aelu / Rel (Combustionary) 1540]

Perhaps a number from the attacking force has to 'sit out'? Let mages use armor and fight pvply, and, depending on the tier and type of mage, have some enemies simply sit out. A T5 mage, since he is present and fighting in armor, would mean four enemies sit out instead of five.

 

Or, to keep simplicity, have all mages sit out and the full amount of enemies (T5 = 5 enemies sit out). This would only apply to combat magic, of course.

[Supremacy 3361]

Lego makes a fair point, they can climb the walls - Just not in plate armour. You also can't just equip armour instantly after climbing. Suiting up a knight takes hours. As for your suggestion, that is one of the things we are already thinking about.

[Drazker 307]

Drazker, you can't possibly think of using grappling hooks with armour on.

What sort of armor? Chainmail? Splint armor? Are you going to ask every person scaling the walls via grappling where their character got their armor or how heavy it is? What are the components and does your character have sufficient muscle mass to pull themself up a wall in suspension? What if the grappling hook's attached ropes have strong fibres and a unique orcish weaving technique that allows men in armor to scale them?

 

Grappling hooks do make quite a bit of noise when hitting stone.

Aye, and if there are by chance elves within /rp distance, they should be given the chance to take notice. But one noise in a city isn't going to send all the armed men of Haelun'or rushing for one point in the wall.

 

The coastal walls are up really steep mountains, and the ground just at their base is just as steep, there are barely any suitable ladder placing points. Refer to the pictures I posted.

I saw your picture and I thought it was silly. Your labeling of points where ladders could go was incorrect. I can show you in-game sometime if you wish.

 

From a longboat, you would be unable to reach the top of the walls without a sort of ballista.

Well of course they would disembark first. I don't see how that wasn't implied.

You know, this is ridiculous trying to deal with this warclaim business. I only came onto this thread to play as Devil's Advocate. Already I have posed several strategies, NONE of which are confirmed or likely even thought of by the invader, and already they have been vehemently argued. I'm out.

[Will (TauFirewarrior) 2466]

Just going to throw it out there Teutonberg Forest and this senario are very different, the battle from the Roman times involved deception and luring the Roman army into a forest, not besieging a mountain city using longboats. However I am not part of any party just throwing my voice in.

[Smithers 388]

I'm going to address the issues of crossbow utilization and a proposed "silent attack". Other "surprise attacks" given as examples succeeded in the past due to terrain utilization and precise timing. That's not to state that precise timing couldn't yield a victory but, rather, to note that the circumstances regarding Haelun'or are extremely different. Haelun'or was, from the start, strategically planned, designed and built to be nearly impervious to exactly what is being proposed and to deny us those advantages doesn't make sense. To march over land with a massive army means either marching directly through allied territory from either direction or directly in front of one of our forward outposts. To do either would completely nullify the reasoning behind a sneak attack, for obvious reasons. I must also note that our view distance across the ocean is absurdly large and augmented by /telescopes/. To assume that a near 40-man attack from the sea could be successfully executed as a sneak attack isn't at all realistic.

One must also note that the odd crossbow grappling hooks that are being proposed are neither 1) supported lore-wise or 2) make any sense realistically. To assume that one can project a grappling hook over a wall with a thick enough rope and large and/or strong enough grappling hook with a mere crossbow over a wall the size of Lin'everal's doesn't make sense. You'd require, at the very least, ballistae to fire them and to do it from the coast or back of the city isn't possible due to height and terrain.

[Lago 2572]

Are we geniunely arguing this on physics and history? Because last time I looked, history didn't have elves and physics didn't have conjured fireballs. Just do what's both fun and fair. Maybe give the mages a basic fireball spell from the existing magic plugin, then do a Mount and Blade sort of thing where the hole in the wall and the siege ladder are set up just before the battle.

[Smithers 388]

Addressing your statement Lago, we're arguing for what is realistic /and/ fair. Fun is perspective based and, from what I have garnered from previous discussion, the High Elven community just wouldn't accept something like allowing an attacking force to merely charge in through a giant, conveniently placed hole in the wall as that would only be one-sided in terms on fun. In wake of the attacking party's association with a group that broke multiple conflict rules and abused mechanics on an absurdly massive scale just a few days ago(something that we have evidence of and will be pursuing), the extremely questionable nature of the war claim itself, our unjustly disadvantageous situation OOCly and the fact that the High Elves are a group that doesn't find conflict roleplay as 'fun' as others seem to, I'm personally surprised that the war claim is even being permitted to be debated in the first place and didn't just face outright denial. It is because of the former factors /as well as/ previous distasteful experiences with involved groups that we're arguing so passionately for what we would find as fair without just merely permitting something on this scale.

[Brevias 275]

A combat brew is about as balanced as an elephant on one leg. And yes, Kais, I would agree with you. That being said the plugin will take some time and evidently Bignsxxy does not wish to wait. While we could simply say no to the warclaim, given it is the defenders choice to accept a war claim, I would prefer to allow dynamic RP to happen. We simply have to see if we can find a way.

>Mages allowed to instantly kill up to three or four people.

>Balanced

C'mon man let's be real.

[Supremacy 3361]

C'mon man let's be real.

 

I'm very open to suggestions. Should you not like one idea, suggest your own. Realistically though, if we did that it would apply to all magic users for the WC— So if the WC guy brought mages, more power to him.

 

Ultimately some form of conclusion ought be made which is amicable to both sides. This is the unfortunate nature of having to deal with RP magic in a mechanical way. That system works, but it is one of many options. It is however the most direct way to balance things I can come up with.

 

If you use enchantments you run the risk of one group thinking they were too much or too little. Using raw numbers related to magic rules does not run the risk of 'imbalance' because you're using a rule to balance, not a way of making the rule work.

 

That all being said: Regardless of what happens it is my opinion the magic has to be dealt with. It wasn't the high elves who war claimed nor was it any action of Haelun'or which pushed him into the war claim. Should he wish to attack the most magical nation on Anthos, that was a choice which comes with a few regrettable issues.

[Brevias 275]

I'm very open to suggestions. Should you not like one idea, suggest your own. Realistically though, if we did that it would apply to all magic users for the WC— So if the WC guy brought mages, more power to him.

 

Ultimately some form of conclusion ought be made which is amicable to both sides. This is the unfortunate nature of having to deal with RP magic in a mechanical way. That system works, but it is one of many options. It is however the most direct way to balance things I can come up with.

 

If you use enchantments you run the risk of one group thinking they were too much or too little. Using raw numbers related to magic rules does not run the risk of 'imbalance' because you're using a rule to balance, not a way of making the rule work.

 

That all being said: Regardless of what happens it is my opinion the magic has to be dealt with. It wasn't the high elves who war claimed nor was it any action of Haelun'or which pushed him into the war claim. Should he wish to attack the most magical nation on Anthos, that was a choice which comes with a few regrettable issues.

You had mentioned that there where more High Elves than Orcs. Each one "instantly" killing one or more people?  Those numbers don't really add up to being fair or fun.  It seems to me that you're trying to glorify the High Elves to near Undead-Tier untouchability.  And as for the Naval issues, does Malinor have some kind of coast guard prepared to stop trespassing ships?  I'm aware that you High Elves have never been fond of being attacked,  but neither of those things seemed to stop us before the last time we pillaged back in Asulon.

[Samler 1566]

It seems more people like the idea of mages gets some kills pre-battle (tho a little split on what happens to them during battle). My idea of the randome kills is all the enemys rolls /100, the lowest X (Kalenz was not sure about it was 32 or 37, so one of those numbers are X) dies. Magic is not low rank-seeking after all, who says it can't hit the commander or mid-ranked fighter?

On the other note on how to get it. If using grapping hooks they would be light assult troopers, having leather armor or nothing while those in iron/chain needs to use a ladder or the gate (if they opened that is). 

That of course is just my point of view but hey, it is atleast something, no?

[Supremacy 3361]

The invaders can land by sea, that isn't the issue. The issue is that a surprise attack of this magnitude with the intent of taking the city seems impossible given the choices are marching through Malinor or sailing up to Haelun'or. The latter of the two involves a ship being on the horizon getting closer for an extended period of time.

 

As for the magic. That is but once suggestion. Fundamentally you can come up with your own, mine was merely pulled from the way magic works— rule 15. Nothing more and nothing less. It isn't needles glorification it is counting what is present to show that to ignore the fact high elves have magic is like forcing an army to attack with toothpicks when they have legitimate steel swords.

 

If the ultimate goal is to be both fair and fun, I still advocate simply waiting until a plugin exists. Is it fair? Yes, it would be. Is it fun? Indeed, people can PVP properly. Though evidently very few people wish for such to occur and thus I am seeking compromise and because of that things have been suggested.

 

Edit: In regards to Samler's comment: Realistically any leader is going to be better protected.

[Helvetius 314]

Why not no surprise attack? A size of that magnitude unless its just the mercenaries alone would be detected by scouts and/or spies. News would also spread of this huge force gathering and it would reach High Elf's ears by friend or traveler. I just don't see how an attack with 3 nations would go unnoticed considering there are travelers, spies, scouts, and so on...

 

Allow the High elves to call for aid, hire mercs, ect...