A Discussion On The High Elven War Claim

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

Am I the only person who will go out and say that with or without magic no nation should have much of a problem defeated the maybe three people in this warclaiming 'army'?

[Sporadic 2844]

Let's weigh in.

 

So on the one hand, I am less-than-fond of bignsxxy and his general attitude. His OOC insults when the elves wouldn't join his revolution were upsetting and don't make me feel comfortable with his RP motivations. However, this warclaim of his is not just falling out of the sky. No matter what anyone 'made out' of his RP threads, everybody knew OOCly, and could easily deduce RPly, that he would inflict as much damage to the High Elven faction as he could get away with. Of course he doesn't state that outright until he has muscle to back it up, but if he finds himself mercenaries, you could've expected it.

 

So in short, his warclaim is valid, evolves out of RP, and it is our fault for not making the proper fortifications to prepare for it. It has to be considered as valid RP. Now if it will be fair and fun remains to be seen, and total genocide does not seem like too cooperative a RP goal to me, but he's right about one thing: we were only too happy to mock him prior to his warclaim. We engaged in the RP, thus consequences are fair and expected.

 

So here's my suggestion:

 

there should be a battle. The terms and ersatz for mages in PvP remains to be discussed, but this battle should happen lest we all look like morons. This person, and the server, should be indulged. And that battle should be for something: not the permakilling of all High Elven characters in the city, but something significant all the same. If the parody wins, he gets the outpost, or surrounding lands, gets to instill a blockade so no High Elves can travel into Malinor, take your pick. If he loses, he'll be prohibited from hostile action.

 

Now at that point we evaluate: was this war a fun experience? did it add something to RP? or did it become more of a 'hey server let's all gang up on these guys they can't use their magics' kind of deal?

• If it was, we hold a series of progressive battles: Another battle for surrounding lands if they were not taken initially. Perhaps a battle for reclamation of taken lands, and later a siege of the city (hopefully WITH Nexus to back everything up).
• If it wasn't, there will be no progressive battles, but whatever property has switched hands will not be given back. The attackers may keep the lands/blockade/outpost as long as their characters occupy it. If they gift or resell it to someone else, it becomes contestable once again.

Now it is the High Elves who make the call on this, albeit after the battle. Their decision will not be overruled by mods. I believe this is fair, as it is them who are wagering much more. If the Mali'ame Nationalist Movement actually held standing in Malinor, was liked by its subrace, and was in line with Elven lore, this would be different. But the faction exists purely to damage another faction, which gives it little longevity, and to be quite honest it still feels rather trollish. If the High Elves lose then quit, they will have lost land indefinitely. 

 

TLDR: Don't be a coward. Fight once. See how it goes. Then maybe fight again.

[Supremacy 3361]

Am I the only person who will go out and say that with or without magic no nation should have much of a problem defeated the maybe three people in this warclaiming 'army'?

 

 

Were he simply bringing his army of 3 Haelun'or could arm its populace with green wool and give them no armor and bash them to death. That being said, he intends to bring the orcs along with multiple other groups as I am lead to believe. Realistically any one with a mercenary army shouldn't be holding a city since the moment the battle was over they would leave.

 

Edit: Given Arche's post above and Lego's post multiple battles to land and secure the land to siege aren't a bad idea.

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

I am also a firm believer one shouldn't be able to landclaim a country unless you are an already established country looking to expand an empire, and even then, only nations adjacent to yours should make sense.

No leader of a mercenary army can turn into a monarch, especially given the source of his 'power'.

[Sporadic 2844]

I am also a firm believer one shouldn't be able to landclaim a country unless you are an already established country looking to expand an empire, and even then, only nations adjacent to yours should make sense.

No leader of a mercenary army can turn into a monarch, especially given the source of his 'power'.

 

Well yes, but I believe he has a right to create a barricade if he manages to win a battle and claim some land. It would be valid as long as their are enforcers to back said barricade up. I would actually like to see some warzone RP as people in warclaims are only too eager to push their advantage as quick as possible once they win one battle.

A siege will result in a mostly destroyed city. Permakilling can't be enforced, but I'd expect Haelun'or to be a third its size if an eventually siege succeeds. It wouldn't be reasonable if it looked like nothing ever happened a week after.

[Redbaron™ 690]

No leader of a mercenary army can turn into a monarch

[WuHanXianShi14 0]

That doesn't count she had boobs.

[Mingpow321 285]

It is simply not a realistic request to ask the aggressor to wait for a magic system, a system that has been promised for nearly two years now.

 

The high elven mages can easily be represented by Connor's compromise, however the mages should not be able to wear armor after the fair number is slain. That simply makes no sense. Once the four men to one mage is slain, then that mage has (in keeping with rule 15) taken on his maximum number of opponents and reached his limit. Give them a sword, if they're lucky enough to kill another person or two, that's great. If not, oh well. They served their purpose.

 

This same courtesy should be given to the opposing force as well, represented by each enemy mage nulling the other mage's effect on the numbers. I would also point out that only grunts should be removed from the equation, not the more skilled fighters (especially of the orcs) on each side as there are a number warriors that could hold their own against a powerful mage. One more ground rule would be to ensure that only mages with overtly offensive magics are taking a toll. Not illusion, household, warding, etc.

[Moot 1719]

It is simply not a realistic request to ask the aggressor to wait for a magic system, a system that has been promised for nearly two years now.

 

The high elven mages can easily be represented by Connor's compromise, however the mages should not be able to wear armor after the fair number is slain. That simply makes no sense. Once the four men to one mage is slain, then that mage has (in keeping with rule 15) taken on his maximum number of opponents and reached his limit. Give them a sword, if they're lucky enough to kill another person or two, that's great. If not, oh well. They served their purpose.

 

This same courtesy should be given to the opposing force as well, represented by each enemy mage nulling the other mage's effect on the numbers. I would also point out that only grunts should be removed from the equation, not the more skilled fighters (especially of the orcs) on each side as there are a number warriors that could hold their own against a powerful mage. One more ground rule would be to ensure that only mages with overtly offensive magics are taking a toll. Not illusion, household, warding, etc.

I'd like to point out, illusion should fall under this compromise, as it is able to be used as an offensive magic. It may blind, and make you feel enough pain to possibly pass out.

[Supremacy 3361]

If it was not clear I intended to make it one minus the limit, thereby permitting them to do better or worse than said rule specifies. Really I couldn't care less if we did it the way you described or any other way, and picking some people not to be random-insta-gibbed would also be fair enough.
 
Realistically though the issue is, you may just not have an army after that.

• Enchanting

Silvos’Laurir Sythaerin (BladeCreep - Tier 3)
Ibar Elsiol (CrippledBacon - Tier 3)
Lucion Sullas (Mithradites - Tier 3) MAT

• Telekinesis

Kale'thas Sol'enrai (mthdominator - Tier 3) [The user list says T1, but I'm unsure that is the case. I'd have to check]

Hileia Sythaerin (LumiaFox - Tier 2)
Silvos’Laurir Sythaerin (BladeCreep - Tier 5 - Teacher)
Kalenz Uradir (SupremacyOps - Tier 5 - Teacher) MAT

 

• Light Illusion

Kalameet (Sage221- Tier 4 - Teacher)
Delonna Aeléyèlsa (Dohvakin - Tier 4)
Kalenz Uradir (SupermacyOps - Tier 5 - Teacher) MAT

• 
  Mental Magic

Vulnir Velulaei (Mririshboys - Mind Magic - Tier 3)

• Fire

Azorella (Kuroi13 - Tier 3)
Zaniil (Smawton - Tier 3)

• 
  Water

Seth Calith (samler - Tier 3)
Delonna Aeléyèlsa (Dohvakin - Tier 3)
Ev'ahreal(Meet2012 - Tier 5 - Teacher)

 

• 
  Air

Rolen Veryan (Raxxtus99 - Tier 3)

• Electrical

Ellser'cyrusa Galleon (Tigergamer - Tier 2)
Ceruberr Asul'Ailer (CaptainSheepy- Tier 4) [This isn't on the actual user list yet (currently T3) as it has yet to be updated but it is the case by time]
Lelien Aeleyelsa (Eenhoornheid - Tier 4) [same as above]
Lucion Sullas (Mithradites - Tier 5 - Teacher) MAT

• Arcane Shielding Lore

Iatrilemar Elervathar (BrandNewKitten- Tier 4 - Teacher)

• Arcane Missiles Lore

Iatrilemar Elervathar (BrandNewKitten- Tier 1)
 

• Fi'hiiran'seth

 
Athri Elibar'acal (Minscule_Evil - Tier 2)
Algaron Elibar'acal (JoshIsTooCool - Tier 1)
 

• Fi'hiiran'acaele

 
Naeri Elibar'acal (Frottimer - Tier 1)

 

If you count that you get 37 units of rule 15 power from 21 mages (of which only 16 count as 5 of them are less than T3) (32 if you don't count the ones I think are errors). The amount of magic isn't negligible, which is why the WC wasn't just accepted despite the magic in the first place.  That is counting T5 as 4, T4 as 3 and T3 as 1. That is, of course, only counting Haelun'or's own mages and none of its allies.
 
Another noteworthy thing is that while illusion may be totally useless in a one against one scenario in a war you can literally make marching illusionary people. It isn't useless in a larger sense.
 
Warding though? Yes, I agree with you. Warding mages realistically would only 'cancel out' other mages. So would fi'hiiran'seth and fi'hiiran'acaele users.
 
On the note of taking the city: If he takes the city he actually has to take the city and keep an active presence in it. If he pays a group to come which leaves the instant the battle is over then well... It isn't much of an occupation as at any time the high elves could walk in with a raid group and throw them out. That and, as Arche/Sporadic pointed out, realistically 2 battles should occur. One to secure the siege land (likely the land across from the main gate which is raised since it is arguably the best place to set that up) and one to actually siege the city.

[Drazker 307]

• Debate regarding if such an attack can qualify as a surprise attack at all.
• Secondly we shall examine surprise attacks as I see them: To start off, to take a city you can't surprise attack. You would need siege weaponry to get over the high elven walls. If this is a pillage attack, which would still realistically require Malinor's consent or arrival by sea (which would be seen in advance because of the nature of sailing). It can be concluded you can't surprise-siege a city or surprise pillage without permission. It is also noteworthy that if one intends to hire an army of mercenaries and bring 3 nations you would be noticed.

   

I'm more than happy to take up this argument.

A surprise attack would be very simple, believe it or not. How?

 

Longboats.

 

That's right, longboats. The best friends of the sea-raiding vikings. Totally silent ships. At night, they put out the lights and row onto shore. On board are silent mercenary teams armed with crossbows, some having grappling hooks attached. What few Mali'aheral guards are on the walls ( which I doubt there would be, but since there is an attack, even a sneak attack, someone will be BOUND to just happen by the walls, sea-side ) will be shot without warning before grappling hooks are fired.

 

While the men with grappling hooks are climbing to secure the walls, the ladders are unloaded from the boats with care and quietly laid upon the walls in key areas. By this time, surely there would be a sighting of the mercenaries on the walls and the warning bells would ring. Enforcers would confront the enemy while civilians fled to bunker-type positions or armed themselves and the battle would ensue.

[Supremacy 3361]

Armies of 40 do not silently sail to shore though, do they? I'm no expert though, I just think it would be hard to get 40 people off a boat next to a druid grove after sailing through Kharajyr land and around an island to shore. That and, are crossbow bolts from 30m away really that accurate someone can dispatch any and all watchers without them noticing? Because you're going to be firing up some pretty steep cliffs.

[Drazker 307]

Armies of 40 do not silently sail to shore though, do they? Groups of 10 or 20 do.

Depends on the size of the ship, really. But perchance bignsxy and his crew will have to employ more than one, I don't think two quiet ships, at least, with well trained men who can keep their mouths shut, will cause any noise.

 

But what could work to the High Elves' advantage is you could have a GM supervising the invaders. If they make enough noise, such as even speaking in /rp as opposed to /w or making loud noises through RP actions, they could send a broadcast to Haelun'or that noise could be heard on the sea, or on the beaches, or near the walls.

[Dohvi 622]

I'm more than happy to take up this argument.

A surprise attack would be very simple, believe it or not. How?

 

Longboats.

 

That's right, longboats. The best friends of the sea-raiding vikings. Totally silent ships. At night, they put out the lights and row onto shore. On board are silent mercenary teams armed with crossbows, some having grappling hooks attached. What few Mali'aheral guards are on the walls ( which I doubt there would be, but since there is an attack, even a sneak attack, someone will be BOUND to just happen by the walls, sea-side ) will be shot without warning before grappling hooks are fired.

 

While the men with grappling hooks are climbing to secure the walls, the ladders are unloaded from the boats with care and quietly laid upon the walls in key areas. By this time, surely there would be a sighting of the mercenaries on the walls and the warning bells would ring. Enforcers would confront the enemy while civilians fled to bunker-type positions or armed themselves and the battle would ensue.

 

The main problem with this is that it relies on the false assumption that the walls are that close to the ocean. You couldn't get anywhere near close enough to the walls to set up any form of grappling or ladders at all, without disembarking and walking around the city a bit. Most of the coastal walls are halfway up really big mountains, which would be utterly impossible to carry siege ladders up.

 

Realistically, if he's planning on bringing more allies than just the mercenary company-- it shouldn't really be a sneak attack.

[Drazker 307]

You couldn't get anywhere near close enough to the walls to set up any form of grappling or ladders at all, without disembarking and walking around the city a bit.

Walk around the city?   No, I've been to Haelun'or. The walls are perfectly reachable by grappling hooks, whether they be thrown or fired from any sort of bow. Siege ladders are long and they only required a place to rest on both sides and two people on the bottom holding them up, if it's a rickety spot.

 

Most of the coastal walls are halfway up really big mountains, which would be utterly impossible to carry siege ladders up.

Again, I've been to Haelun'or. The walls are perfectly reachable by grappling hooks, whether they be thrown or fired from any sort of bow.

 

Realistically, if he's planning on bringing more allies than just the mercenary company-- it shouldn't really be a sneak attack.

Why? There have been an assortment of large-scale sneak attacks throughout history.

The Battle of Teutoburg forest, for one.